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Thread: Anyone interested in John Dee and his work?

  1. #11
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    and very interesting information about fish, thank you

  2. #12
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    I saved your excellent picture! My wife's daughter, at the time in high school, took this the only time I'd been to England. Can I assume your pic is also from the British Museum?
    Obsidian is for skrying. Even black spray-painted surfaces have been used in modern times for the purpose. The practice is best performed by people with clairvoyance, as Dee's associate Edward Kelly was supposed to be. Kelly is best known for his use of a crystal from which he recited the Enochian alphabet - backwards - in a very elaborate process. The obsidian stone doesn't reveal anything but rather serves as a means for the mind turning inward, as there is nothing to 'see' outwardly. The crystal is set into a Watchtower, as Francis Barrett described it, and which was copied by Alex and Maxine Sanders (although Barrett apparently plagerized the hell out of Cornelius Agrippa's earlier work Three Books of Occult Philosophy. This pic is from Google, not responsible for the poor quality. (I built one of these myself, only I used a plate of brass instead of a plate of gold to surround the crystal. My crystal is smaller, but I was only doing a demonstration of Wiccan practices, not practicing myself).





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    Quote Originally Posted by peethagoras View Post
    I claim that what we read in all of his materials was not to inform the face-subject matter, but to carry a sub text . The keys being the abc and arithmetic. I think all the stories about Dee and Kelly were engineered to be red herrings and at the same time to remain in the public memory. Its all down to memory. Dee and some of his friends thought they had hit on the door to imortallity, but setting the whole thing up took jucho casho and great power.
    We do know from historical records that, at one point, Dee possessed the red stone. (An unidentified person supposedly gave him.) Unfortunately or maybe it was his fortune, that by the time he realized what he had, the stone was all used up. I have always maintained that he had a 'psychic encounter' with the Philosopher's Stone. (As the real stone, I mean the "Stone of the Wise" has a psychic energy about it that develops a relationship with the keeper of the stone). So, he probably would be one who could create something from that encounter, and create an entire mythology, system of symbols, etc.
    Introitus apertus ad occlusum Regis palatium / Labore et coeli favore / Nosce te ipsum

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    What I have, "historically," is a book entitled The Alchemical writings of Edward Kelly by A.E. Waite. The first part is an introduction, the latter part, a book ostensibly by Edward Kelly, and dedicated to Rudolf II, King of Hungary and Bohemia, who apparently was open to the spurious pursuits of alchemists (hence the Old Prague 'alchemist's row.' As we know, Dee died in poverty, his magnificent and unrivaled library looted, and house violated. (When I stayed at a relative's house outside of London, some 13 years ago, I marveled at a street named Mortlake Ct., around the corner, as Dee was on my mind, and his home was in Mortlake). At any rate, Kelly died of injuries sustained, falling from a high wall during a jailbreak. He had already lost his ears according to some reports, for other legal violations.

    In a small illustration that has always fascinated me, and which I have a framed copy of, are two men in an old English cemetary, standing within a magick circle, facing what appears to be an exhumed corpse in bed clothes. The practice was necromancy - inducing the corpse to reveal where a fortune had been buried. One text says that these are Dee and Paul Talbot (an AKA for Kelly, the criminal). Waite's text says that they are Kelly and Paul Waring, with whom Kelly took up with after Dee had realized the extent to which he had been deceived by Kelly. Kelly even convinced Dee and their wives to practice wife-swapping, allegedly at the behest of the Angel Uriel, with whom Kelly was supposed to be in communication with! Kelly was a true con-man, a sociopath. Dee was too much of an enthusiastic egghead, and overlooked the inconsistencies of Kelly's character.

    Without intending to offend anyone at this forum, I find the question of a historically physical substance of The Philosopher's Stone (Red or White versions), to be a parallel myth to the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth. I believe that both The Stone and Jesus, are in fact, personal and impersonal symbols for the same salvific reality. The Stone, of which Christ has been compared in the Bible (Psalm 118:22, Acts 4:11), as a midrash, has its parallel in The Golden Fleece of classic Greek legend (Jason and the Argonauts). Like The Fleece, The Stone would be the symbolic fulfillment of all of one's earthly desires. The Stone, yielding both longevity and wealth, fulfills the same desires. Emphasis is on the earthly. Kelly was most interested in sex and (monetary) power - earthly concerns, not transcendental ones. There are branches of Christianity today that teach that 'God wants you to be rich,' and that wealth is a sign of spiritual favor from God. This concept cuts right into the pre-Christian Greek notions in classical polytheism, with its favors and punishments from the gods/goddesses.

    If Jung, and post-Jungian thinkers read it correctly, The Stone, like the Diamond Body, the Jewel in the Lotus of the Heart, in Vajrayana Buddhism, or the Cubic Inch of Jade in some Taoist literature, or the Pearl of Great Price in biblical and gnostic writings - are all phenomenologically identical references to a transcendental reality, which makes earthly desires for immortality and wealth completely moot. Aldous Huxley wrote something which said that precious stones are precious because they are objects in the external world (along with lesser baubles) which most nearly resemble the things that people see in the visionary world. I myself have seen ordinary roadside gravel suffused with sapphire light on high dose acid trips, for example. These visionary states are sometimes accompanied by a sense of Wholeness (Holiness) that outstrip the most impressive physical wealth. I know that my values toward social status based on jewels, clothes, cars, or homes have been radically altered by transcendental states of mind. I have unintentionally offended individuals, who chalked my complimentary, yet obviously disinterested pleasantries about their new luxury car, as mere envy! I may look longer at a chrome yellow Lambourghini passing me by, but I cannot discern envy, just visual novelty, for example.

    I think that the condition of Buddha's Wisdom of Equanimity, is just one facet of a multifaceted 'Stone' that spiritual enlightenment means. In Vajrayana, there is the Cintamani - the Wish-Fulfilling Stone, in Vajrayana Buddhism, which is another parallel with the Diamond Body. There, a magickal, physical stone is never entertained. It seems we Westerners have difficulty with discriminating the tangible from the intangible, and insist that the greater value must be with the tangible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkostheGnostic View Post
    What I have, "historically," is a book entitled The Alchemical writings of Edward Kelly by A.E. Waite. The first part is an introduction, the latter part, a book ostensibly by Edward Kelly, and dedicated to Rudolf II, King of Hungary and Bohemia, who apparently was open to the spurious pursuits of alchemists (hence the Old Prague 'alchemist's row.' As we know, Dee died in poverty, his magnificent and unrivaled library looted, and house violated. (When I stayed at a relative's house outside of London, some 13 years ago, I marveled at a street named Mortlake Ct., around the corner, as Dee was on my mind, and his home was in Mortlake). At any rate, Kelly died of injuries sustained, falling from a high wall during a jailbreak. He had already lost his ears according to some reports, for other legal violations.

    In a small illustration that has always fascinated me, and which I have a framed copy of, are two men in an old English cemetary, standing within a magick circle, facing what appears to be an exhumed corpse in bed clothes. The practice was necromancy - inducing the corpse to reveal where a fortune had been buried. One text says that these are Dee and Paul Talbot (an AKA for Kelly, the criminal). Waite's text says that they are Kelly and Paul Waring, with whom Kelly took up with after Dee had realized the extent to which he had been deceived by Kelly. Kelly even convinced Dee and their wives to practice wife-swapping, allegedly at the behest of the Angel Uriel, with whom Kelly was supposed to be in communication with! Kelly was a true con-man, a sociopath. Dee was too much of an enthusiastic egghead, and overlooked the inconsistencies of Kelly's character.

    Without intending to offend anyone at this forum, I find the question of a historically physical substance of The Philosopher's Stone (Red or White versions), to be a parallel myth to the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth. I believe that both The Stone and Jesus, are in fact, personal and impersonal symbols for the same salvific reality. The Stone, of which Christ has been compared in the Bible (Psalm 118:22, Acts 4:11), as a midrash, has its parallel in The Golden Fleece of classic Greek legend (Jason and the Argonauts). Like The Fleece, The Stone would be the symbolic fulfillment of all of one's earthly desires. The Stone, yielding both longevity and wealth, fulfills the same desires. Emphasis is on the earthly. Kelly was most interested in sex and (monetary) power - earthly concerns, not transcendental ones. There are branches of Christianity today that teach that 'God wants you to be rich,' and that wealth is a sign of spiritual favor from God. This concept cuts right into the pre-Christian Greek notions in classical polytheism, with its favors and punishments from the gods/goddesses.

    If Jung, and post-Jungian thinkers read it correctly, The Stone, like the Diamond Body, the Jewel in the Lotus of the Heart, in Vajrayana Buddhism, or the Cubic Inch of Jade in some Taoist literature, or the Pearl of Great Price in biblical and gnostic writings - are all phenomenologically identical references to a transcendental reality, which makes earthly desires for immortality and wealth completely moot. Aldous Huxley wrote something which said that precious stones are precious because they are objects in the external world (along with lesser baubles) which most nearly resemble the things that people see in the visionary world. I myself have seen ordinary roadside gravel suffused with sapphire light on high dose acid trips, for example. These visionary states are sometimes accompanied by a sense of Wholeness (Holiness) that outstrip the most impressive physical wealth. I know that my values toward social status based on jewels, clothes, cars, or homes have been radically altered by transcendental states of mind. I have unintentionally offended individuals, who chalked my complimentary, yet obviously disinterested pleasantries about their new luxury car, as mere envy! I may look longer at a chrome yellow Lambourghini passing me by, but I cannot discern envy, just visual novelty, for example.

    I think that the condition of Buddha's Wisdom of Equanimity, is just one facet of a multifaceted 'Stone' that spiritual enlightenment means. In Vajrayana, there is the Cintamani - the Wish-Fulfilling Stone, in Vajrayana Buddhism, which is another parallel with the Diamond Body. There, a magickal, physical stone is never entertained. It seems we Westerners have difficulty with discriminating the tangible from the intangible, and insist that the greater value must be with the tangible.
    In alchemy, philosophical entertainment is left behind. Academic philosophers are 'puffers' in the ancient art of al-kemi, that's not what a philosopher is. It's not book-learning, memorizing, and quoting. As French alchemist Jean Dubuis says: "Alchemy is an initiative system in which you have no delusions. It is the only initiatic path where there is an objective control in the laboratory. So if your experiment shows you've gone beyond the ordinary material laws of the universe, it shows that you're an alchemist that has had an interior awakening, and that corresponds to the rule which says, 'You will transmute nothing if you have not transmuted yourself first".

    And the highest spiritual achievement is the manifestation of the Philosopher's Stone. The stone itself doesn't mean anything, you may even give it away; but being able to make it shows where you truly are in your spiritual development. No delusions with this approach. That's, one of many reasons, why I follow alchemy.

    When people speak of spirituality, oftentimes is full of grandiose comments, mind-chatter, quoting this and that concept, etc.; in alchemy all that is left behind. Either you can make the physical elixir, tincture, etc., or it shows you have more to learn. It's beautiful and simple!

    If you done laboratory work, what I said here is no thing new.

  6. #16
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    I grok what you are saying, and I understand that performing laboratory work, the process, is a methodology can be transformative of the operator. Yes, I agree that unexpected results (not explosions!) that do not seem to be explicable by purely physical chemistry, may well indicate a paranormal phenomenon. This may still be relegated to what Indian Yoga calls 'siddhis,' - psychic or parapsychological phenomena. These are sought by 'fakirs,' but not yogis. Zen practitioners acknowledge that such phenomena exist, and call them Makyo - illusion - because as fascinating as they may be when compared to ordinary cause-effect phenomena, these things entrap us in fascination, which can then seduce us into their production, for their own sake. That would strengthen our attachments to worldly desires.

    The production of a physical Stone, replete with all of its mythic attributes (not spagyric medicines which, like homeopathic preparations, may well have an effect upon more subtle aspects of our being, as in the 'Kolisko Effect' http://www.answers.com/topic/kolisko-effect), may represent a unattainable horizon - a symbol of transcendence of physical limitations as explained by physics and chemistry. It may inspire the 'faith which moves mountains,' the transmutation of water into wine, or the multiplication of five loaves and two fish into sufficient food to feed multitudes. When I was back there in seminary school, I tried to express the importance of LSD to a Hindu-born professor of New Testament studies. He told me that he believed metaphor to be more powerful. That was 35 years ago, and I never forgot that. I can better appreciate that statement today. Metaphor, midrash, myth, metaphysics - all use of the written word, the Logos incarnate on parchment, paper, or tablet.

    Ought I to take an alchemical Homunculus at face value, for example, as an actual tiny being that takes form in a flask, or would I be more on point if I understood it as the Taoists refer to the "Immortal Foetus," which is an 'internal vehicle' - an idiom for a 'Corpus Incorruptibilis,' or a 'subtle body' that can contain consciousness apart from the physical body, for transference to a yet higher type of being? I am no stranger to laboratory work. I was doing laboratory experiments in a home lab from the time I was 10. Shifting to a ritual, magickal mind-set is also not alien to me, nor is combining the lab with the ritual mentality. But, obscuring a more penetrating analysis of what individuals are thinking, anticipating, hoping, expecting is critical, otherwise we can devise our own delusions or even share our delusions with others.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkostheGnostic View Post
    I grok what you are saying, and I understand that performing laboratory work, the process, is a methodology can be transformative of the operator. Yes, I agree that unexpected results (not explosions!) that do not seem to be explicable by purely physical chemistry, may well indicate a paranormal phenomenon. This may still be relegated to what Indian Yoga calls 'siddhis,' - psychic or parapsychological phenomena. These are sought by 'fakirs,' but not yogis. Zen practitioners acknowledge that such phenomena exist, and call them Makyo - illusion - because as fascinating as they may be when compared to ordinary cause-effect phenomena, these things entrap us in fascination, which can then seduce us into their production, for their own sake. That would strengthen our attachments to worldly desires.

    The production of a physical Stone, replete with all of its mythic attributes (not spagyric medicines which, like homeopathic preparations, may well have an effect upon more subtle aspects of our being, as in the 'Kolisko Effect' http://www.answers.com/topic/kolisko-effect), may represent a unattainable horizon - a symbol of transcendence of physical limitations as explained by physics and chemistry. It may inspire the 'faith which moves mountains,' the transmutation of water into wine, or the multiplication of five loaves and two fish into sufficient food to feed multitudes. When I was back there in seminary school, I tried to express the importance of LSD to a Hindu-born professor of New Testament studies. He told me that he believed metaphor to be more powerful. That was 35 years ago, and I never forgot that. I can better appreciate that statement today. Metaphor, midrash, myth, metaphysics - all use of the written word, the Logos incarnate on parchment, paper, or tablet.

    Ought I to take an alchemical Homunculus at face value, for example, as an actual tiny being that takes form in a flask, or would I be more on point if I understood it as the Taoists refer to the "Immortal Foetus," which is an 'internal vehicle' - an idiom for a 'Corpus Incorruptibilis,' or a 'subtle body' that can contain consciousness apart from the physical body, for transference to a yet higher type of being? I am no stranger to laboratory work. I was doing laboratory experiments in a home lab from the time I was 10. Shifting to a ritual, magickal mind-set is also not alien to me, nor is combining the lab with the ritual mentality. But, obscuring a more penetrating analysis of what individuals are thinking, anticipating, hoping, expecting is critical, otherwise we can devise our own delusions or even share our delusions with others.
    A fellow alchemist posted something that I was going to describe: http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showt...of-Blood/page2 Test your blood like so, then post what colour you get? (Make sure you get silica glass test tube, not pyrex.)

    Please read the end chapters of Lisiewski's Israel Regardie and The Philosopher's Stone. The real experimentation, method, material, cycle, etc. described to create a homunculus. Frater Albertus also created a living creature, a mini homunculus, told by a close source. It escaped.

    I know, it's safe to escape into concepts whether they're from the Far East or elsewhere. I have an undergraduate degree in Eastern Philosophy from Guelph '99. I can tell you from watching other "philosophers" almost all were lost, addicted, no grounding for their ideas, and in practice lived poorly - and I don't mean that financially as you can assume. They sure could quote what other philosophers said though.

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    As a matter of fact, I have read of Lisiewski in Regardie's book. I also read The Man Who Was Frankenstein by Peter Haining, which I recommend you read if you're interested in these types of claims. I have included both of these books in the book I am struggling to complete. The second book is about Andrew Crosse, whose lectures it is highly probable that Mary Shelley, Byron, and their group also attended. I first read of Crosse as a child in a popular paperback from the early 1960s - Stranger Than Science by Frank Edwards. I have considered experimenting along Crosse's lines, more so than with Lisiewski's.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acarus_Crossii

    http://www.slemen.com/crosse.html

    Now, as far as your remarks about quoting other philosophers, or even more dismissively, suggesting an "escape" into concepts from the "Far East" - that is your own projection, not my intention. Any scholarly pursuit needs corroboration from other researchers. I for one have made the attempt over the last 3 decades to make phenomenological correlations between the Occident and the Orient, not to attempt 'escaping' from any pursuit of truth. I do not simply 'believe' as a mode of apperception, and especially when physical phenomena are the object of research. Congratulations on your graduation in '99, but I'm not going to engage you in a 'pissing contest' with regard to education. My bio lists all of that. 'Believe' whatever you wish, but in the realm of form and phenomenon, a phenomenological reduction is absolutely essential to clear the unconscious incursions of wish-fulfillment, 'magical thinking' (the psychological reference, not the occult one), and fantasy that all-too-frequently colors the clarity of thought in fringe science and 'real magick.'

    Last edited by MarkostheGnostic; 06-25-2012 at 01:29 AM.

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    O why be so emotionally volatile? No one has threatened your image on this hyperspace Forum. All is well. People express and write, that's all this is about.

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    Hello

    I found this video and thought it was cool and partially relevant to the conversation, but I don't know if it's a working set up or just art though..

    http://vimeo.com/22171683
    Still Searching.............

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