This is a Phoenix-thread from the old site.

I often say things like "L and R are interchangeable".
I thought this might deserve some explaination if you don't know where I'm coming from.
It's based on the evolution of language through different peoples and different times.
A common example is FATHER - english, PATER - latin, VATER - germanic, PITR - indo-european...

Here we see that F, P, V are interchangeable.
Also include B and PH - these are all labials and related by pronunciation.

L, R and W are similarly related.
M and N;
C and G, and K
S and Z;
D and T and TH as in Adonis, Aton...
I and J;
U and V, sometimes W.

So when you have a word like "letter", also look into "retter, wetter, redder, wedder, wether, ... etc.
This will open up a lot in cabala/green language.
Quote Originally Posted by BeautifulEvil
We've been needing a thread to explain some of this for a while now, so great snag!
Quote Originally Posted by phliosehea
Yes the Cabala is definitely a profound aspect regarding alchemy...but I would urge everyone to understand that there are several dialects regarding its usage. Grasset D'Orcet lists a few: grimoire noir, grimoire blanc, lanternois, and patelinage...but I have encountered quite a few more.

Some of these dialects will be of limited use, unless you understand that deeper knowledge comes from beyond the etymological root. We all know that cabala has its root in the Latin cabellus (horse)...but understanding why it is called cabala is stalled if we go no further, because we require the Greek word for horse (alogo). Only then do we realize that (alogo) bears phonetic semblance with Logos (reason, logic, etc...), lego (to speak), and ego( I ). And only then do we understand that the cabala is the spoken language of reason (among other things)...
Quote Originally Posted by Jepetto
Very interesting stuff.

Does anyone have any comments about these books?
The Qabalah Secret Tradition Of The West by Papus
The Key To The True Kabbalah by Franz Bardon
Quote Originally Posted by WCH
When using any language that's evolved from proto-Germanic (such as English), two very important laws are Verner's Law and Grimm's Law. They're complicated, and the Wikipedia pages are excellent, so I'll just refer you there. They explain why, for instance, "hemp" and "cannabis" are actually the same word. Same with "foot" and "ped," and a bunch of others. Essentially what happened is the Latin went through a bunch of changes before winding up in English, such that it sounded rather different than it used to... and then someone thought that it'd be a great idea to add Latin words to our vocabulary because of how awesome they are, so we ended up with the exact same word twice in quite a few different cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm's_law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verners_Law
Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi
Thanks WCH. I couldn't remember the names of those laws, but that's what I was referring to.

Jepetto - I don't have those. Got Bardon's Initiation into Hermetics
and Papus' Tarot.
Quote Originally Posted by phliosehea
It's up for debate and has been on and off for awhile- but I believe that it is predominantly Greek, not necessarily Latin that would be the culprit that twisted into our eventual English (among other languages German etc...). Like your "foot" example which is Latin pes, ped, but in Greek we have ποδι podi (foot) from it we get podium, podiatry...I believe the Latin descended from the Greek πεζεύω pezeuo(to travel on foot). Atleast from a cabalistic standpoint I have found more enlightening connections with Greek... far more then I ever did with Latin (though it too has many gems).

Concerning those two books, it is very important to distinguish between the "Kabbalah's" most of which concern the Hebrew Mystic tradition or pertain to numeric equivalents of letters and their calculations (gematria etc...)...Whereas the cabala (Latin origins in cabellus - horse) is more of a living language based on "like sounding" phonetics that utilize all Languages and is not limited to certain doctrines (as in the case of Kabbalah). Here is an example of how it can guide you using the Greek (and Latin) sound of the symbolic letters of Christ. ΧΡ (Chi Rho) (Cairo) (crow) etc...hopefully I will not rein down maranatha upon myself but here is a further extrapolation (which should be evident of its excellence in further revealing its effectiveness)

An abbreviated Cabalistic Summation of the Work

κρύφιος
kruphios

κρίος-χρῖσις-χρῶσις-κρασι-κρᾶσις-χρόνος-κρίνος-croceus-crucio-χρύσεος-ῥούσιος
krios-chrisis-chrosis-krasi-krasis-Chronos-krinos-croceus-crucio-chruseos-rousios
kruphios: a secret
Krios: Aries (ram)
chrisis: an anointing, smearing unction (oil)
chrosis: a coloring, a tinting
krasi: wine
krasis: a mixing of two things so they are blended
Chronos: Chronos, Kronus, Saturn (black)
krinos: lily (white)
croceus: saffron colored
crucio: to torture
chruseos: gold
rousios: red
Quote Originally Posted by BeautifulEvil
philosehea: I'm glad you finally decided to post some of your research on the phonetic cabala. It's appreciated, and I'm sure the others will also appreciate it.

chronos: Chronos, Kronus, Saturn (black)
krinos: lily (white)
croceus: saffron colored = yellow
rousios: red


hopefully I will not rein down maranatha upon myself but here is a further extrapolation
You and I both.
Quote Originally Posted by phliosehea
Let's knock on wood...perhaps oak..
Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi
wow! Thanks for that Philosehia.
Quote Originally Posted by Jepetto
This is a great post Phliosehea, but I am even more confused than ever. WCH had answered the question for me a while back about the differences between the K and C spellings, but almost everywhere I have looked, I see people using the different spellings without adhering to what I have read here. (not to imply that what I have read here is wrong, but different)

Quote Originally Posted by phliosehea
Concerning those two books, it is very important to distinguish between the "Kabbalah's" most of which concern the Hebrew Mystic tradition or pertain to numeric equivalents of letters and their calculations (gematria etc...)...Whereas the cabala (Latin origins in cabellus - horse) is more of a living language based on "like sounding" phonetics that utilize all Languages and is not limited to certain doctrines (as in the case of Kabbalah). Here is an example of how it can guide you using the Greek (and Latin) sound of the symbolic letters of Christ. ΧΡ (Chi Rho) (Cairo) (crow) etc...hopefully I will not rein down maranatha upon myself but here is a further extrapolation (which should be evident of its excellence in further revealing its effectiveness)
In Bardon's Kabbalah book, he also strays from this idea. After the introduction he states:

"The Kabbalah is the science of letters, of language and the Word - not, however, the language of the intellectual, but (mind you) the universal language. The term Kabbalah is of Hebrew origin; the various religious systems have different terms for this science . Thus, for instance, in India and Tibet the science of the Word is called Tantra. And again in other religious systems they speak of "formulas" and so on."

Flipping through the book, I stumbled on this passage:

"Before describing the exercises with the individual letters, it is my intention to describe the practice of the universal Kabbalah and to note that I cannot acknowledge the claims of any specific world religion to be the original source of this high science. To practically study the true Kabbalah, the aspiring Kabbalist need not have a knowledge of Oriental languages, Hebrew, or any other tongue. The universal expression of a letter is not its form but its color or, to be more exact, its color-vibration. Since the color-vibration of a letter is its most visible form of expression, anyone can engage in the Kabbalah, regardless of the intellectual language he speaks. An Occidental is just as capable of imagining a letter's proper color as is an Oriental. To imagine a letter in its true color means, at the same time, to pronounce it with a certain vibration of light in the mental world, the mental sphere."

Now I understand that this is Bardon's take on this, and is not necessarily Law. And I also noticed that you had said 'most of which concern Hebrew Mystic tradition' and not all. But also, the idea you had given for cabala is very similar to that which Bardon had given for kabbalah.

In my head, I associate the Q spelling with the Hebrew mystic practice, as I had thought that the Hebrew spelling of Qabalah is QBL, and for those that are not specifically a Hebrew practice use either the C or K spellings indicating they are translations of the Hebrew version. I find that the K spelling is most comfortable for me to use in a general sense.

I also realize that I may be wrong on all these ideas, as I have only recently started to study cabala/kabbalah/qabalah beyond the practice of gematria using the English language. I also think it would be really far out to be able to read and understand Greek and Hebrew or any of the sacred languages.
Quote Originally Posted by phliosehea
I am honestly not familiar with Bardons work...not to be disrespectful to it- but I have never seen, heard, or known of any mention of color associations with words (not that it doesn't exist)...the work that I do follow uses reasonable, logical, and effective means to arrive at conclusions that I feel are the most likely. While clearly the phonetic association I showed earlier has colors that are mentioned, they follow the repeated colors that are the most noteworthy within the alchemical process, but the letters themselves are not "colored" by anything I have seen. While I won't say that it is absolutely necessary to know Greek, Latin, Hebrew or any other language to understand where the phonetic cabala (or Logos) is leading you...it would be very much to everyones benefit to have a rudimentary knowledge of these languages. I recommend to anyone interested in delving deeper- to purchase or check out a Greek (and/or Latin) Lexicon (kind of like a dictionary). To be honest this method is time consuming, tedious, and needs a very defined understanding of alchemy to really benefit most (the maxim: "Let Nature be your Guide" would be considered the easier way to understand the art). There are items that are easily overlooked if you are not extremely familiar with many alchemical doctrines, Greek gods, and Greek lore (or Hebrew/Latin)...for instance some in the past have worked with molybdenum (from the Greek word for lead)...but if you are not familiar with Homers Odyssey it might be lost on you that μολι moly was a plant with "black" roots and a "white" blossom that was given to Odysseus to heal him. This is the same as the saying within alchemy to: "whiten the head of the crow" as Flamel puts it.

Suffice it to say, the alchemists always mean cabala with a "C" for the reasons listed earlier that tie it to cabellus (Latin horse) cabellero (Spanish), cavalier (French). I would urge everyone to read as much as possible concerning the "Logos" and a logical, clear, and concise picture emerges from the mire. Kabbalah, Qabbalah or any of the other ways or associations attributed to anything other then the Cabala (or Logos) have never provided me with anything nearly as useful as this phonetic art. The homonym or Houyhnhnm as Jonathan Swift would have it, is the key to realizing its potential...but like I said, it requires an extensive amount of work and knowledge to really see the benefits in their entirety. At all times you must be lead by reason...otherwise it will be a fools quest.

I am not sure if in Bardons book the Kabbalah is a spiritual path (i.e. some sort of meditative or mysterious "enlightenment" unfolds because of it- be it through kundalini etc...). While these things are often espoused by the more "new age" type of doctrine- the phonetic cabala is more of a "bread crumb" trail of sorts...you need not meditate on a word other then to understand its etymological root or translation into another language. At its core it will guide you only as you would be guided by highway signs, or a map for instance (assuming you have some understanding of where you are going)...nothing fantastical will happen because of it...barring perhaps the "aha!!" moment (to steal a line from B.E.) but you will still be left to do the work.

As a footnote- (and to confuse the situation more) whole words are not always utilized, and often the main subject can either be in the suffix or prefix of the word (or both)...and at all times remember that it is a phonetic art...so speak it when you read it...[until bestial celestial little till etc...] [ "Tillrakintellabora" and now I've hidden it in a ridiculous word ] And this is just one of the phonetic cabala's subdialects...if you really want I can confuse everyone with permutations: tail tallow talisman toll Toledo tell etc... and this is why you must be guided by reason, otherwise it is just as much of a dead end as (in my opinion) the other Kabbalah's are. In the future I may go over the rules as I have understood them and have verified them against the backdrop of known alchemical doctrine (to avoid garish conclusions) but for right now I must wait.
Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi
A couple things that may relate between "Hebrew" kabbalah and phonetic cabala are:

1. Adam supposedly named the creatures of the earth using universal cabala.
2. The Sepher Yetzirah (there are various spelings) has some interesting teachings on the
correspondences between the hebrew letters and other things that may be useful to cabala.
3. The letters (autiot) of the hebrew alphabet are not only letters, but numbers and symbols. For example,
aleph means bull/ox; but is also a symbol of a man pointing above and below as in the Magician tarot card.
4. Both cabalas can employ gematria and various permutations.
Quote Originally Posted by Jepetto
Thank you Philosehea, for your added explanation. This idea is becoming a little clearer for me and I'm beginning to see through my confusion. Though there is still a bit for me to digest. This is some really interesting work, even at my current level of understanding.