Hermes Trismegistus Old and True Natural Path - now available in English

[Illen A. Cluf]

Could you please point me to the mention of the crucible? As I don't recall it.

If you have the recently published version, it's on page 34. If not, it's in the section called "About the Differences of the Tinctures in the Dry and Wet Path".

He says:

But they differ and have their specific labels because on the dry path the Tincture of the Gold is digested by way of a dry Powder in the Crucible and placed into a pluperfect or tinctural state, ...".

Of the three texts Cyliani - Récréations -ICH, the last two are the more textually connected, the place where they differentiate the most being the the first part, about the matter to be used. While ICH gives some hints to man as microcosm and centre of creation, and to the matter to be taken from him (somehow supporting Illen's hypothesis), the Récréations, or more rightly the Scholia (from 4 to 12), talk more explicitly about clay, stating (15) that clay is the first and natural matrix of the whole world.

I totally agree that the Récréations/Scholia refer to clay as the matter. The several references leave no doubt.

It's odd how similar they are (obviously the later versions were based on the earlier versions), yet they differ so significantly on the matter used.

Illen

[Andro]

It's odd how similar they are, yet they differ so significantly on the matter used.

I look at a matter like looking at a 'prison'.

There are maximum security prisons, very difficult to break - and there are minimum security prisons, with cultivated white collar 'guests'

But in the end, all prisons can be broken in to & out of... Some, however, more difficult than others... But in the end, they all contain more or less the same 'seeds'...

[Andro]

Andro, regarding the vessel, the Récréations state quite clearly that the only vessel is the matter itself which behaves like a container for the (celestial) water of which it is imbibed.

Still, I would think the matter would need some sort of external vessel to hold it. 'Compass' mentions this and the difference between those two kinds of 'vessels'.

I haven't read 'Récréations', so I can only speculate that it talks about preparing the matter to be a magnet for Spiritus Mundi (Universal Mercury, etc...) - unless the 'celestial water' to which the text refers is also artificially prepared and manually imbibed.

[Illen A. Cluf]

I look at a matter like looking at a 'prison'.

There are maximum security prisons, very difficult to break - and there are minimum security prisons, with cultivated white collar 'guests'

But in the end, all prisons can be broken in to & out of... Some, however, more difficult than others... But in the end, they all contain more or less the same 'seeds'...

Yes, but still there is a world of difference between urine and clay. How can someone, following a previous treatise so very closely in almost all details, come up with SUCH a radically different matter?

[Illen A. Cluf]

Still, I would think the matter would need some sort of external vessel to hold it. 'Compass' mentions this and the difference between those two kinds of 'vessels'.

I haven't read 'Récréations', so I can only speculate that it talks about preparing the matter to be a magnet for Spiritus Mundi (Universal Mercury, etc...) - unless the 'celestial water' to which the text refers is also artificially prepared and manually imbibed.

I think it all depends on whether an Alchemist is talking about a "philosophical" vessel, or an "actual" vessel. The "philosophical" vessel would be the material in which the SM is contained, while an "actual" vessel is the "container" in which the matter is processed. As I mentioned above, I.C.H. uses a crucible rather than a glass container.

[Andro]

I think it all depends on whether an Alchemist is talking about a "philosophical" vessel, or an "actual" vessel. The "philosophical" vessel would be the material in which the SM is contained, while an "actual" vessel is the "container" in which the matter is processed. As I mentioned above, I.C.H. uses a crucible rather than a glass container.

Yes, this seems to be the commonly used terminology, which often gets mixed up when deciphering texts.

Yes, but still there is a world of difference between urine and clay. How can someone, following a previous treatise so very closely in almost all details, come up with SUCH a radically different matter?

1. There is not such a big 'world of difference', considering that all matter is 'seeded' alike, but developed to different degrees of evolution....

2. Clay (if this is indeed the matter of that text) may also refer to a microcosmic matter, if we look (for example) at the Hebrew linguistic similarities:

DaM - ADaM - ADOM - ADaMaH
אדמה - אדום - אדם - דם
Blood - Man - Red - Earth

3. All this being said, I will be able to comment much better after I've read 'Récréations' in English - So I'll just wait for updates from the translator you mentioned

[teofrast40]

Thanks Illen for the reference. Effectively the symbol used here in the original edition seem to stand for crucible. That said, personally I would hesitate to consider the crucible as the main vessel, even in the dry path of this text.
If references to temperatures in ICH are a vague range from warmness, to avoiding vitrification during lapidificatio (so maybe a bit higher here..), the Récréations are quite categoric,

Il ne faut pas que la température passe quinze degrés de Réaumur (18° C).
Temperature must not overcome 15 degrees Reamur (18° C)

Also I wouldn't worry that much about the discrepancies in suggestions to the matter of the work, as from Zosime on, descriptions of it have always been symbolical and metaphorical. It could easily be that all the three authors referred to the same substance (we can find reference to red earth, adamah etc. also in ICH and Cyliani), be it clay, urine, both, or something else, or that each one of them had something different in mind.
As for the vessel, Andro, in ICH it's less clear, but in the Récréations -and Palmer, I cited him in the ancient thread on Cyliani- it's quite evident that the only vessel needed for most of the (this) work is a simple dish.

Cheers
t

[Illen A. Cluf]

1. There is not such a big 'world of difference', considering that all matter is 'seeded' alike, but developed to different degrees of evolution....

The seed may be the same, but according to the ancients, the amount of seed in each material varies significantly, and there are just a few matters where it can be found in abundance.

2. Clay (if this is indeed the matter of that text) may also refer to a microcosmic matter, if we look (for example) at the Hebrew linguistic similarities:

DaM - ADaM - ADOM - ADaMaH
אדמה - אדום - אדם - דם
Blood - Man - Red - Earth

Very interesting word analysis, Androgynus!

[Illen A. Cluf]

That said, personally I would hesitate to consider the crucible as the main vessel, even in the dry path of this text.

I agree. I.C.H. just happened to mention the crucible being used in part of the process of one of the two paths, so this doesn't necessarily mean that it's the only vessel used.

Also I wouldn't worry that much about the discrepancies in suggestions to the matter of the work, as from Zosime on, descriptions of it have always been symbolical and metaphorical. It could easily be that all the three authors referred to the same substance (we can find reference to red earth, adamah etc. also in ICH and Cyliani), be it clay, urine, both, or something else, or that each one of them had something different in mind.

Yes, ths is a distinct possibility, especially considering the word analysis that Androgynus provided.

[vega33]

Returning to the translation of 'Hermes' Old And True Nature Path', the inner title page contains the following alternative title:

I find the addition of 'Without Glassware' to be rather intriguing...

I have not explored the 'classical' ways in depth, as my methodology is somehow different, but I think it's definitely worth a closer look...

In the Hermes path, more so in the subsequent writings, the vessel and the matter are seen as part of the same thing, vis a vis, the composition/thing that is composed, the "mercury" (I can supply quotes from the work on this). It would be easy to say "without glassware" looking at it from that perspective. Lab glassware was an extension of and/or misunderstanding of (at the same time) the early techniques of alchemy, IMHO. Nature uses no glassware and often uses pressure and electricity, or liquid "melting pots" in its processes, glassware can only approximate (and in some cases not even come close to) the types of energetic exchange happening every day in volcanically active areas.