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Thread: What Makes Us Happy and Why?

  1. #41
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    Krisztian, I guess you may relate more to video number 7.

    However I think there is more than one way to gain what we call happiness.

    The 9 video's are quite diverse, but all have relevance.

    Ghislain

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghislain View Post
    . . . . I guess you may relate more to video number 7.
    I followed the work of Csíkszentmihályi, he's over at University of Chicago, or at least when I studied.

    For me, pardon me, but non of the listed ones fit. Illumination and initiation play great part in happiness, and having a listen to spirit. Buddhism for me is missing the point, and I find it's origins contradictory to its modern conception.

    But it's all entertaining. It is what it is.

  3. #43
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    I had an interesting experience about 10 years ago now. I was 6 months or so into some metabolic and neurological healing when, while talking to somebody on the phone something "connected" in my head and I suddenly said "Oh! Now I can be happy". Something very noticeable had changed very suddenly. It was like something had been missing and suddenly it wasn't, like throwing a switch. It didn't turn on happiness, it only made it noticeably possible.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibiru View Post
    I probably should of explained what the word contentment means to me before stating that contentment=happiness. When I say contentment, what I mean is recognizing that the current moment is perfect. When I'm content, everything is as it should be. When I focus on the disharmony that appears to exists in the world, I tend to loose this state of contentment. That's not to say that I can't experience a perfect moment of contentment/happiness while I'm participating in a protest march for a cause that I feel passionately about. I can also experience contentment/happiness by temporally transcending the knowledge of this suffering that I would love more than anything to change.

    By contentment, I do not envision a nation of mindless sheep hypnotized by the television and media. I imagine a yogi in a perfect state of meditation, or the chills you get as you listen to a beautiful song, that final moment of surrender after an intense and enduring struggle, the feeling you get after any accomplishment that you've worked hard towards, nirvana, non-attachment, lack of desire, etc. I feel that one can want and work towards changing the world for the better in the long-term time-frame, while at the same time experience contentment and happiness with where one is in this very moment right now.
    Im am inclined to agree with the above here.

    All extremes, of "happiness" and "sorrow" are but momentary focuses, and they do balance out, we just consciously like to focus on one more than the other.

    To really see and be "happy" (to a non-extreme state, i non-polar state) is to be content.

    Ignorance's bliss is not true contentment, its simply fear masked as joy. (those who do not want to know, are so due to the fear of what it means - fear of the unknown to them. A self-circulating poison.)

    Those that do want to know and to see, will do so, as its their nature, regardless of upbringing; ignorance has no sway nor bliss - for them the ignorance can be cured, but it wont be for the self-perpetuating people that grow their ignorance into stupidity.

    Nevertheless, the happiness that arises, being perfectly stable in the word of "content", does not remove a sense of purpose - if it did, it would not be True to the context of the subject matter; but rather would be as Dev said, a gateway to apathy, and resulting back to fear/ignorance/stupidity (if it hast yet, let it be known that "stupidity" is the self-perpetuation of ignorance.)
    True happiness/contentment as is being stated, however, encourages continued action and purpose, exploration and experience - without long-term judgements of "good/bad, happy/sad" - but rather, happy/content with what Is at every moment of being - present, possible future, and all past.


    That which fosters a nihilistic notion of Spirit, you may think of as a true "satan"/"adversary" of the Spirit - that is to say, a rebellious factor, creating the illusion of choice, and change, destruction - all to allow the continued expansion/expression and reconstruction of the Spirit itself. The adversary is, in essence, the "ego" of the Spirit on a Macro scale - wanting to stagnate and become absolute nothingness - cease existing on all levels/realms/notions, because it fosters the false happiness in not-knowing, the false contentment in apathy.
    It is part of the flavors of Fire/Destruction, that can be skillfully used in looking deeper and "Knowing thy self" (Spirit included) all the more. Hence the illusionary nature of the "Shadow". Its there, as a jest, and serves the opposite end.

    So, logically (if it were linear), it would seem that the destruction of things, the apathy and sorrow, is just the Black Phase, and we move into the happiness of knowing, the contentment with ourselves and of all things - then with that grown into the Red phase of our being - we delve back into the Black around us, to transmute. This is why the contentment (True Contentment) does not foster the apathy or stagnation, but rather encourages to go higher/deeper with its joy, not having connected to any particular thing/person/event - but to all, and grow that over and over (so once you get to the end of the linear, it becomes circular, but begins to jump octaves/levels - circles within circles.)


    I think i expressed that clearly... my apologies if not, and i think i'll end it here before i begin another circle of thought within the same post (i hate when i get redundant.)







    ~Seth-Ra
    One fatal tree there stands of knowledge called, forbidden them to taste. Knowledge forbidden? Suspicious. Reasonless. And why should their Lord envy them that? Can it be sin to know? Can it be death? And do they stand by ignorance, is that their happy state, the proof of their obedience and their faith?

  5. #45
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    The originating question to this thread was,

    why do we have emotional feelings when logic may be a better survival tool.

    I would like to see people deeply question the reasons for their feelings, where they come from, what
    purpose do they serve, how controlled are we by them and could we function without them.
    I appreciate all the comments made about happiness;

    Krisztian on your point about Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, he says...

    people are happiest when they are in a state of flow— a state of concentration or complete
    absorption with the activity at hand and the situation. It is a state in which people are so
    involved in an activity that nothing else seems to matter.
    I can really relate to that, it explains some of the weird things people do; a never ending
    string of surprises. Also meditation comes to mind <- no pun intended, as a pseudo-absorption
    into no-reality.

    Seth, I can relate to Nibiru’s slant on contentment from the quote you posted, but notice how
    contentment is temporary, for some it may last for some time, but temporary non-the-less and
    as you point out they “are but momentary focuses”. You said “Ignorance's bliss is not true
    contentment”, I have to disagree with you there, I believe this is how we live most of our
    lives, in pure ignorance, and some find a sort of bliss in that, burying themselves in actions
    such as sports or socialising, entertainment, be it a film, a show, a book, a party etc... while
    others in the world are starving or being abused and down-trodden sometimes to the benefit
    of those that are buried in their ignorant bliss. I am not trying to be “holier than thou” I am
    equally guilty of this ignorant bliss. As an example, what do we know of the world
    economy? That is for the economists and the likes, it could all collapse into chaos
    tomorrow, but until then we still go about our business in ignorant bliss. There are many
    examples like this and I’m sure each person reading this thread could come up with another
    unique one.

    If we look at “The path integral formulation of quantum mechanics” we could start here,



    going through to here,



    and hopefully we end up here.



    I don’t have a clue what any of that was about...perhaps there are those among us that could
    explain it.

    The point is we all find our level of ignorance that makes us comfortable and we live in it.
    Ignorance is not stupidity, for most of us it is an acceptable necessity.

    Seth, you go on to say, “True happiness/contentment as is being stated, however, encourages
    continued action and purpose, exploration and experience”. I absolutely concur; it is what
    drives us, as being temporary in nature, our search for continuing happiness is our driving
    fuel.

    This brings me back to Krisztian, you ended your last post with a statement,

    It is what it is
    but that is how emotions are always looked at ‘they are what they are’, and my intention
    when starting this thread was to ask and debate ‘what are they' and what purpose do they
    serve; why do I have a need to be happy?

    I guess, if I wanted to create a stand-alone machine that could continuously evolve I would
    have to create some sort of goal for it, one that could not actually be reached and a reward
    system that kept it moving toward that unreachable goal.

    Some may argue that our happiness should not be questioned, but I would argue that if no one
    questioned our happiness then we would be no more than emotional zombies living our lives
    like the Eloi in H.G. Wells’ “The Time Machine”, wallowing in our endorphins.

    I agree with Dev’s statement that contentment is the gateway to apathy.

    So is it agreed that happiness is a driving force? If it is what is it driving us toward?

    and

    My question still stands, “can we exist without emotion?”.

    Thanks

    Ghislain

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghislain View Post
    The originating question to this thread was,

    why do we have emotional feelings when logic may be a better survival tool?

    We have them as part of our being because mere survival is not living.


    where they come from,
    Soul/Divine.


    what purpose do they serve,

    Depth to experience, intuitive resonance/communing with others (sympathy/empathy), fuels for more experiences/frequencies of Spirit.


    how controlled are we by them and could we function without them?
    Control depends on your level of mastery of them - it varies by person and discipline.
    Could you function without them - like a Vulcan? Not likely without some kinda trauma or defect that flips the switch off; everything else would just be suppression and that lid wont hold forever, not to mention how bleak things would be without that deeper level of sensing and feeling and experiencing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ghislain View Post
    Seth, I can relate to Nibiru’s slant on contentment from the quote you posted, but notice how contentment is temporary, for some it may last for some time, but temporary non-the-less and as you point out they “are but momentary focuses”.
    No, i said that the extremes (dualistic) of "happiness" and "sorrow" are momentary focuses. The True contentment is ever present/prevalent once known.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghislain View Post
    You said “Ignorance's bliss is not true
    contentment”, I have to disagree with you there, I believe this is how we live most of our lives, in pure ignorance, and some find a sort of bliss in that, burying themselves in actions such as sports or socialising, entertainment, be it a film, a show, a book, a party etc... while others in the world are starving or being abused and down-trodden sometimes to the benefit of those that are buried in their ignorant bliss. I am not trying to be “holier than thou” I am equally guilty of this ignorant bliss. As an example, what do we know of the world economy? That is for the economists and the likes, it could all collapse into chaos tomorrow, but until then we still go about our business in ignorant bliss. There are many examples like this and I’m sure each person reading this thread could come up with another unique one.
    Im afraid i cant agree with that. There is a difference between illusionary "bliss" in not-knowing, and True Contentment in understanding.

    I also give no credence to an imaginary infrastructure for fake monetary exchanges. Its an illusion put in place to govern and facilitate certain actions in a game called "economics" - it has no real value outside of its made-up function, and seeing that it is made-up, or understanding how the game works, is neither here nor there.

    It isnt Life, unless one wants to choose to play that sub-game within the actual game of Life itself.

    What is real is what is left after the solve et; let the immanent collapse happen, and see the real worth of the fake system/money, vs actual people and their needs.

    Also, i'll say that just because we dont study something to mastery (meaningless or not, in the long run) does not = ignorance of it. Knowledge is infinite and infinitely misleading. Understanding is where wisdom is found. Try to "know" everything and you'll chase your tail for all eternity. Try to Understand it, and you can find the Contentment and Wisdom - maybe have conversations with King Solomon, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ghislain View Post
    The point is we all find our level of ignorance that makes us comfortable and we live in it. Ignorance is not stupidity, for most of us it is an acceptable necessity.
    That may be the case for some (finding the 'comfort zone'), but it is not a necessity, even if it is a desire/want.
    I did not say that ignorance is stupidity; to the contrary, i said ignorance can be cured. Self-perpetuated ignorance, however, is stupidity, and you cant fix stupid (as they wont allow themselves to be fixed, by you, me, or even themselves.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghislain View Post
    Seth, you go on to say, “True happiness/contentment as is being stated, however, encourages continued action and purpose, exploration and experience”. I absolutely concur; it is what drives us, as being temporary in nature, our search for continuing happiness is our driving fuel.
    While im glad we concur here, i think there may be a misunderstanding as to why. lol

    The driving fuel isnt because its our temporary nature - its because its our nature to explore and move forward, to not stagnate. That has less to do with emotion, and more to do with why we are here in general (experience, know self; Macro & Micro). The True Contentment, simply gives the emotional and mental stability to fully utilize this nature we have.








    ~Seth-Ra
    One fatal tree there stands of knowledge called, forbidden them to taste. Knowledge forbidden? Suspicious. Reasonless. And why should their Lord envy them that? Can it be sin to know? Can it be death? And do they stand by ignorance, is that their happy state, the proof of their obedience and their faith?

  7. #47
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    Seth, you go on to say, “True happiness/contentment as is being stated, however, encourages
    continued action and purpose, exploration and experience”. I absolutely concur; it is what
    drives us, as being temporary in nature, our search for continuing happiness is our driving
    fuel.

    This brings me back to Krisztian, you ended your last post with a statement,

    "It is what it is"

    but that is how emotions are always looked at ‘they are what they are’, and my intention
    when starting this thread was to ask and debate ‘what are they' and what purpose do they
    serve; why do I have a need to be happy?

    I guess, if I wanted to create a stand-alone machine that could continuously evolve I would have to create some sort of goal for it, one that could not actually be reached and a reward system that kept it moving toward that unreachable goal.

    Some may argue that our happiness should not be questioned, but I would argue that if no one questioned our happiness then we would be no more than emotional zombies living our lives like the Eloi in H.G. Wells’ “The Time Machine”, wallowing in our endorphins.

    I agree with Dev’s statement that contentment is the gateway to apathy.

    So is it agreed that happiness is a driving force? If it is what is it driving us toward?

    and My question still stands, “can we exist without emotion?”.

    Thanks

    Ghislain


    I guess, if I wanted to create a stand-alone machine that could continuously evolve I would have to create some sort of goal for it, one that could not actually be reached and a reward system that kept it moving toward that unreachable goal.

    and My question still stands, “can we exist without emotion?”.

    Hi Ghislain,

    Now perhaps I'll take a stab at the question. "Evolution" is an open ended game; "to create some sort of goal for it, one that could not actually be reached". "Evolution" itself seems to fill the bill. Evolution is it's own goal

    So is it agreed that happiness is a driving force? If it is what is it driving us toward?

    No, it is not agreed that "happiness" is a driving force. There is no way in hell I would have done this life, even once if happiness were the driving force or even a goal. It was a battle all the way from shortly after birth to stay alive. I was sick constantly, I had an abusive psychotic mother. I had to start waking up at two in order to survive her. There was nothing happy about it. My life was every bit as survival driven as that of a primitive hunter-gatherer. I'm still having to fight for survival. If Codex Alimentarius is ever enforced in the USA it will KILL me and millions of others. I would have to put a lifetime supply of my necessary for life vitamins in a deep freeze, and for my children and maybe grandchildren to survive. I know people in other countries who are doing that. They are ordering all they can from the USA where there is still freedom of nutrition, and freezing a lifetime supply in case we stop having freedom of nutrition. I take it somewhat personally that they are in effect, trying to kill off my entire family and everybody like us, say another 30-70 million or so in the USA alone. I doubt that it really has anything to do with me personally. It's all about power and control and money for those doing it. The effect is condemning 1/3 of the people in afflicted countries to a lifetime of misery of induced chronic illness. It gets far worse from here. The diseases we are seeing now are in the canaries. The next wave is not so mild and far more mysterious. If Codex Alimentarius does take effect in the USA the probability of solving this problem all the way goes way down

    As I have now mostly solved the problem, even while it's killing me, now all I need to do is carry it to my 12 year old self to write it up in such a way that the research establishment doesn't go off on such a bizarrely wrong headed research path for 60 years. So my groundhog day is about 60 years long in order to be able to "back-mask" the information needed to an earlier "time" in my life. It may take another 1000 or 10,000 or 100,000 or more tries. It is too much to be carried in "temporal" memory or pass in a quick channelling. It has to be incorporated into my very structure.

    Is that "happiness"? It seems more like desperation to me.

    Earl Nightingale put it this way "Success is the progressive realization of a worthy ideal".

    As the character in ALL YOU ZOMBIES by RAH said "I know where I came from, what about the rest of you?"

    I know what has been driving me all my life and it hasn't been any search for happiness, whatever that is, it's been personal and family survival, and incidentally hundreds of millions of others.

    My question still stands, “can we exist without emotion?”.


    So now we get to it. Here I am, a systems analyst to my core, an extreme intellectual stance and I practice Tantric Alchemy requiring mastering the emotional (see the J.R. Haule synopsis posted on another thread) and using it as a major alchemical tool. It might seem contradictory to some. Having and working with "emotions" is at the heart of alchemy. They are a key to having a worthwhile LIFE. They are something we have only when alive.

  8. #48
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    If you look at the three last posts I think there is a bit of misunderstanding in each, which is causing
    some crossed lines.

    I should have said the pursuit of happiness is the driving force...it is when happiness is being
    achieved that there is the danger of contentment and apathy.

    Seth, for me you have addressed the issue most succinctly, but I still feel we are missing the point as
    we are talking/writing here under the influence of emotions. Perhaps the question could be better
    answered by a sociopath. <- pun intended .

    You said “The driving fuel isnt because its our temporary nature

    I didn’t mean “our” temporary nature; I was talking of the temporary nature of happiness and
    contentment. Perhaps the comma should have been left out...grammar isn’t my strong point

    We seem to have a trait of desensitisation, for example, we see it in what we find horrific in films
    today. My mother wouldn’t let me watch the old King Kong films; she thought they were
    terrifying...watch them today and they are laughable. I believe it is the same with happiness, have it
    for too long and you grow weary of it, taking it for granted and wanting more; it’s like a drug or it is a
    drug, take it away and a person will go to the ends of the earth to retrieve it or they will go into
    withdrawal and pine for it.

    Emotions! Just Say No!

    Like Joni Mitchell said in “Big Yellow Taxi”: Don’t it all seem to go that you don’t know what you’ve
    got till it’s gone.


    I think we may know the what (endorphins), but the when, how and why are a little vague.

    You say, “mere survival is not living”, then what is?...and what for?

    Is it not an illusory picture that what we are doing is anything other than merely surviving?

    Please note my questioning comes from curiosity not any form of depression ...or maybe it does ;
    you’ll have to excuse me, I may be under the influence of emotion.

    It’s fun to talk of money and economics as illusionary, but take it away and it won’t seem so
    illusionary. I think we are about to find that out as the ridiculous monetarist system we have
    created comes crashing down. It was never sustainable, it’s a pyramid system and they made
    pyramid selling illegal for the very same reason. <-bit off topic sorry

    It isnt Life, unless one wants to choose to play that sub-game within the actual game of Life itself.”

    Then I have to ask, why play the game at all...does reason not come into it? What do we get from
    playing the game...more emotion? Don’t get me wrong, I play the game and enjoy doing so, but for
    a moment I have it on pause to ask why?

    Am I playing a game or am I a puppet being played with?; rewarded or punished with emotion! I’m
    like a junky whore; happiness is the drug but who’s my pimp?

    its our nature to explore and move forward, to not stagnate. That has less to do with emotion, and
    more to do with why we are here in general (experience, know self; Macro & Micro). The True
    Contentment, simply gives the emotional and mental stability to fully utilize this nature we have
    .”

    With respect Seth, do you have all your answers? If not then you still search, but what are you
    searching for? If you are not searching could you be missing something? It’s a sort of paradox.

    I sometimes feel content, sure I know what is, but then the questions come back...what if?... have I
    started to stagnate? ...Perhaps I need to look further... I get itchy feet and the game continues.

    I don’t like to repeat examples but in the Ayahuasca ceremony, where I was in a state of pure
    bliss...it wasn’t enough. It’s just another path but no matter how wondrous the next path is it
    always misses something you desire on the path you are on.

    I am pleased for you Seth if you are content and happy and long may it continue for you, but for me
    there are still questions.

    III you say “Evolution is it's own goal”. Then what purpose does it serve apart from a curiosity?

    It can’t be a curiosity or there would be no cats

    I can only try to empathise with your struggle III, but can never fully understand what you went
    through as we have walked different paths, but wouldn’t you say that your goal was to diminish the
    pain and in so doing strive toward a happier state of existence?

    "Having and working with "emotions" is at the heart of alchemy. They are a key to having a
    worthwhile LIFE. They are something we have only when alive
    ."

    Does a drug addict not think the same about his/her next fix?

    What if it is emotion that creates the illusion and questioning the emotions is the way to lift the veil
    to reality?

    If not we can try something else

    Just a thought!

    Ghislain

    P.S. I wanted to say more, but having just come off a night shift I can’t keep my eyes open. I hope I
    have said enough to explain what I meant to say as I wouldn’t want to hurt anyone's FEELINGs
    Last edited by Ghislain; 11-04-2013 at 12:01 PM.

  9. #49
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    When someone achieved a level of happiness that's almost ever-present, I don't want to say all present because most wouldn't believe that's possible, then emotionality, labile states, swings and 'emotional thinking' is less present. In fact, I say it isn't really there. That's because the brain isn't addicted to emotions anymore, especially destructive inner states, which is very prevalent among society. But creates reality from a spiritual-driven mind set, that's more about direct conscious creating, not about emotional hunger. I must point out what I mean is very rare, and if one meets one they have a general energetic glow about them, and contentment and vitality.

    The whole psychopathic idea doesn't fit here, that's yet again another social conditioning by the Powers That Be. A psychopath is almost always in turmoil, inner one. I know, I am a psychologist who works with that diagnosis.

    It is my point that there isn't happiness without some form of spirituality. (But I know when I say that some who doesn't have or know spirituality experientially will miss-understand my comment.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghislain View Post
    If you look at the three last posts I think there is a bit of misunderstanding in each, which is causing some crossed lines.

    I should have said the pursuit of happiness is the driving force...it is when happiness is being achieved that there is the danger of contentment and apathy.

    Seth, for me you have addressed the issue most succinctly, but I still feel we are missing the point as we are talking/writing here under the influence of emotions. Perhaps the question could be better answered by a sociopath. <- pun intended .

    You said “The driving fuel isnt because its our temporary nature

    I didn’t mean “our” temporary nature; I was talking of the temporary nature of happiness and contentment. Perhaps the comma should have been left out...grammar isn’t my strong point

    We seem to have a trait of desensitisation, for example, we see it in what we find horrific in films today. My mother wouldn’t let me watch the old King Kong films; she thought they were terrifying...watch them today and they are laughable. I believe it is the same with happiness, have it for too long and you grow weary of it, taking it for granted and wanting more; it’s like a drug or it is a drug, take it away and a person will go to the ends of the earth to retrieve it or they will go into withdrawal and pine for it.

    Emotions! Just Say No!

    Like Joni Mitchell said in “Big Yellow Taxi”: Don’t it all seem to go that you don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone.

    I think we may know the what (endorphins), but the when, how and why are a little vague.

    You say, “mere survival is not living”, then what is?...and what for?

    Is it not an illusory picture that what we are doing is anything other than merely surviving?

    Please note my questioning comes from curiosity not any form of depression ...or maybe it does ; you’ll have to excuse me, I may be under the influence of emotion.

    It’s fun to talk of money and economics as illusionary, but take it away and it won’t seem so illusionary. I think we are about to find that out as the ridiculous monetarist system we have created comes crashing down. It was never sustainable, it’s a pyramid system and they made pyramid selling illegal for the very same reason. <-bit off topic sorry

    It isnt Life, unless one wants to choose to play that sub-game within the actual game of Life itself.”

    Then I have to ask, why play the game at all...does reason not come into it? What do we get from playing the game...more emotion? Don’t get me wrong, I play the game and enjoy doing so, but for a moment I have it on pause to ask why?

    Am I playing a game or am I a puppet being played with?; rewarded or punished with emotion! I’m like a junky whore; happiness is the drug but who’s my pimp?

    its our nature to explore and move forward, to not stagnate. That has less to do with emotion, and more to do with why we are here in general (experience, know self; Macro & Micro). The True Contentment, simply gives the emotional and mental stability to fully utilize this nature we have.”

    With respect Seth, do you have all your answers? If not then you still search, but what are you searching for? If you are not searching could you be missing something? It’s a sort of paradox.

    I sometimes feel content, sure I know what is, but then the questions come back...what if?... have I started to stagnate? ...Perhaps I need to look further... I get itchy feet and the game continues.

    I don’t like to repeat examples but in the Ayahuasca ceremony, where I was in a state of pure bliss...it wasn’t enough. It’s just another path but no matter how wondrous the next path is it always misses something you desire on the path you are on.

    I am pleased for you Seth if you are content and happy and long may it continue for you, but for me there are still questions.

    III you say “Evolution is it's own goal”. Then what purpose does it serve apart from a curiosity?

    It can’t be a curiosity or there would be no cats

    I can only try to empathise with your struggle III, but can never fully understand what you went through as we have walked different paths, but wouldn’t you say that your goal was to diminish the pain and in so doing strive toward a happier state of existence?

    "Having and working with "emotions" is at the heart of alchemy. They are a key to having a worthwhile LIFE. They are something we have only when alive."

    Does a drug addict not think the same about his/her next fix?

    What if it is emotion that creates the illusion and questioning the emotions is the way to lift the veil to reality?

    If not we can try something else

    Just a thought!

    Ghislain

    P.S. I wanted to say more, but having just come off a night shift I can’t keep my eyes open. I hope I have said enough to explain what I meant to say as I wouldn’t want to hurt anyone's FEELINGs
    Hi Ghislain,

    III you say “Evolution is it's own goal”. Then what purpose does it serve apart from a curiosity?

    It can’t be a curiosity or there would be no cats


    I live with two small green aliens. One of them is an Amazon Green parrot, and middling large parrot and the other a smaller Quaker parrot. The Amazon is extremely curious, every bit as curious as a cat and as likely to be killed by that curiosity. He doesn't think at all like a mammal. As Alex's trainer said "Who would have thought that a bird with a brain the size of half a peeled walnut could be so smart". So big brained curved beak birds, and crows, ravens and magpies at least, have curiosity down as well as cats. They solve mechanical problems better than cats.

    I don't see how you link evolution up with curiosity. Since one might say that at the end of a life all is revealed, evolution keeps one from reaching that end and the satisfaction of curiosity. It is sort of the ultimate delay of gratification. One's being is always "pending" It does serve the purpose of the eternal game of "keep it going" (EJ Gold).

    "Here" we are where ever and what ever "here" is. Why evolve? As far as I am able to discern, that is the essence of what we are here for. Put a bunch of primates in a monkey trap that looks like a world and see if there are any who can grow to understand it. Here we are in a giant fishbowl that looks like it is completely self contained, like a Klein bottle. And the inhabitants, at least some of them, seek to control all the others and make everybody else be what they believe they ought to be. So we see the late 1st millennium church trying to kill all the Goddess oriented pagans, spiritual truth via genocide. The Moslems did the same to 300,000,000 Hindus in their genocidal campaign in India, spiritual truth by killing off the believers in other gods. We see similar behaviors from Mao, Stalin and Hitler, Kill the other believers so that there is only ONE TRUTH for the whole world. As they say "If you can't control yourself, control others".

    Nobody has gathered in all the chips yet via that method. So, the question is how can one survive? Evolution is one way. It changes the nature of karma, and the game. It becomes possible to construct one's self so that one makes choices that can lead to side step the "gotcha" before the other person get's past the first step of setting it up.

    About 20 years ago I was visiting in Cleveland and driving my F-I-L's brand new car on a 6 lane interstate covered with solid rink ice under a quarter inch of snow. People were driving way to fast, perhaps 30 mph. I saw a man two lanes to my right who was eying the spot next to me and he would have to accelerate hard and steer sharply to cut into the space. He looked at me and smiled and I absolutely knew he was going to cut over and spin out, hitting me and starting a 50 car chain collision that he was going to blame on me. I immediately accelerated and started to pull left two lanes carefully without spinning as quickly as I dared. As I looked over he was spinning into the space I had just vacated. He had a smile of contentment on his face as he started to spin until he saw that the space he was spinning into was empty and his face changed to an astonished look of horror and he looked around for me. He caught my eye, maybe only 5 or 6 feet away but maintaining distance as he spun and I steered over. His expression changed to a "how in hell did you get out of the way". I smiled and winked at him. His face went to rage as he disappeared in a swirling mass of cars bumping into him and each other and slowing down. I was able to stay several feet in front of and to the side of the mass of cars slowing in their slides towards me. I don't KNOW what he was about. All the appearances were that he pulled over too fast and sharply to not spin out knowing he was going to clobber me and was totally surprised and angry when he missed me and was the sole cause of the massive pileup. I made it to my appointment and in that meeting I was told of the "check your car for explosives" warnings we had received related to what we were working on.

    This was hardly the first or only time that I was the apparent target. I was a bully target in school. By that time in my life, late 20s and early 30s I was dodging about 9 of 10 such occurrences. The "why" is most puzzling. I didn't make up stories about it to explain it. They are just a few of a life full of strange occurrences. My mother was the source of "setup" after "setup". I learned to recognize the "archetype" alerted by her "tells". By the time she completed the 3rd move in the setup, it was going to happen in one variant or another. The best avoidance was to sidestep it after the first move. I learned to catch people's "tells" on the first move of a setup. When I effectively side stepped, subtly or openly, the person would often be very angry for no obvious reason except that they would never admit to me or others why they were angry. The more I smiled towards them the more angry they would get. The most successful type of sidestep was always the one that would leave only one option for them and that was to make a step obvious to everybody which they would not do at step 2 because they would have no plausible deniability. Step 3 would be more open often with a "So sorry I accidently kicked your feet from under you" or "so sorry the cook dumped the whole salt shaker in your dinner and served it anyway." As "Don Juan" said it "One must learn to live strategically."

    At one point in my learning I would start of when making a statement to somebody with saying "In what I'm about to say I don't mean ..." and would list off up to 20 or so of the persons' usual ways of twisting or misunderstanding what I meant and use it to unload on me. They always came up in the same sequence for any given person They would blow up and stomp away when I reached their current intention. I trashed the persons ability to play "games" with me as the " gotcha" target. After all how many times does one need to see "Now I've got you, you son of a bitch" being offered as a gambit before learning how to recognize it and avoid it. I attracted conscious players and the others went away mad.

    One can evolve one's self to be out of reach of all those petty ego pecking order games. There is nothing most folks hate more than somebody who demands and assumes equality without playing continuous pecking order games and instead shoots them down without fuss.

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