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Thread: Is psychedelics a valid path?

  1. #1
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    Is psychedelics a valid path?

    This thread was split from http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showt...4398#post24398
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    Well, depends on how you define "drug". Caffeine, alcohol and nicotine are drugs too, in many sense (addiction, etc.) and I see nothing bad in them, as long as they are consumed in such a way that you don't develop addiction or withdrawal symptoms. For example, I drink coffee sometimes, but when someone feels like a zombie every day until the morning coffee, now, that is no good.

    So well, Ayahuasca is hallucinogenic, right? My knowledge is that Iboga also (correct me if I'm wrong). I had a slight interest in the former for a while, and it is still tempting, but generally my opinion is that using hallucinogenics to achieve anything spiritual is a mistake and wrong approach for the simple reason, that if you can't achieve something without them, then you are not ready for it. And forcing out an experience you are not ready for it is much more a drawback than aid on the spiritual path. In addition, Dubuis explains pretty well how so called psychedelics ruin your chakras, and why the visions they induce are false and distorted, and I must pretty much agree with him, as well as with his statement that the only way is to achieve true, undistorted visions with psychedelics is death my overdose.

    Well, I personally don't say you can't spiritually develop using such substances, but rather I say you can develop much more without them, even if it seems slower. For me they can be described in AD&D style as "5 step forward, then 2d6 backwards". In theory you can gradually develop through it, but in fact, chances of that are pretty low.

    And for the locals, well: they did born THERE for a reason. Since we weren't born in an Ayahuasca or Iboga centered culture, it is most likely because for us, that isn't the way to go.


    Just my personal opinion, as always. Your decisions are yours.
    Last edited by Awani; 09-10-2012 at 02:22 PM.

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    I agree with you. It is all drugs. Just wanted to see how you meant the word.

    You say you had an interest in Ayahuasca and that it is still tempting so then I presume you have not had an Ayahuasca initiation? If that is the case then it is hard for me to take your opinion seriously. On the other hand if you hold the same position after you have had an initiation then I will gladly accept it.

    Also Dubuis is talking about psychedelics? Which ones? LSD perhaps? Or is he just throwing out opinions without personal experience? An Ayahuasca/Iboga (and even Magic Mushrooms if done properly) is not only about the 'drug' itself, but the setting, the intention and who ever is feeding you the substance. Ayahuasca is only one of many substances used by the Shamans in the Amazon, and without some of the others quite meaningless in my opinion. It is a full experience, not a partial one. I can go visit the Shamans in the Amazon and not drink Ayahuasca and still advance spiritually. The Shamans are more important than the drug! I live in Amsterdam, I can drink Ayahuasca whenever I want, yet I have only had it in Peru.

    Regarding your 'locals' comment does that mean you can't enjoy pasta fully because you are not born in Italy? Not likely. Besides psychedelics grow naturally all over the world, and there are entheogenic Shamanic practices all over the world as well. Although in many places it has been destroyed and suppressed by the Patriarchal Ruling Elite.* That it belongs to locals can be true, but there are psychedelics locally where I am now, here in Europe... and there are Shamans as well (also local). So I am afraid it is incorrect. The difference, because there is a major difference, is that in Gabon and in the Amazon the Patriarchal Ruling Elite has failed to destroy these practices, although they are trying.

    From my own experience, and speaking with others who have had similar experiences, I can honestly say that they work. They work fast, without bullshit, without effort. This sometimes annoys people who have spent ten years meditating having someone reach the same spiritual calm after 6 hours. The chances are quite high (excuse the pun) that you will develop spiritually with these substances if done correctly.

    If the visions are false, well this could also be discussed at length. Something I can gladly do if there is an interest. But my short answer is NO they are not false, imo.

    I think the human race, all of it, comes from a Spiritual Plant origin. In modern times the masses have left the path, I am just back on it.

    Finally I do not agree about the not ready part in your post, and I can speak only for myself. It took many years and a lot of personal courage to go through with my initiation. I could have been initiated many many years before I actually was, reason I didn't was because the time was not right. I was not ready. So this is, from my own perspective, incorrect.

    Let me just also add that there is also the theory that one does not need to be ready. I have a t-shirt that says Just do it!, because the Plants told me that you do not need to be ready. So I wasted a lot of time thinking I was not ready, but that is another story.

    Oh and I loath the New Age LSD hippie morons that roam this planet, so please don't confuse me with one of these people. LOL!



    * Why would the Patriarchal Ruling Elite** suppress psychedelics/entheogens and Shamanic practices? Because a population that embrace these practices would not be consumers and war mongering morons. There would be no profit to be made. I am certain of this theory.

    ** It should be Parental Ruling Elite.
    Last edited by Awani; 09-09-2012 at 03:53 PM.
    Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

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    Just as a quick reply to the above exchanges, I'll quote/paraphrase dev from one of our private conversations:

    "It's not as much about WHAT you do, as it is about HOW you do it." (I would also add WHY to the HOW, but that's me )

    As for 'being ready'... well, when you do something - then it means you were ready for it, regardless of the consequences, (which may range from mild to extreme, in many possible directions of the experiential spectrum).

    The very concept of 'being ready', when used in the sense of maturity/preparation/positive outcome/etc, implies some sort of value judgement and expectational spin on the experience.

    Shamans have a saying: "Expect nothing, receive everything". And what one receives may not necessarily be what one would LIKE to receive - nevertheless, it was time and it is what it is, WHEN it is.

    All these plants are not on this planet by chance. Neither is the air we breathe, for that matter.

    Still, except maybe for air (in most cases ), not everything is for everyone.

    I am personally NOT into entheogens, and I'm not defending and preference in particular.

    What I DO defend, is Diversity, diversity of needs and of Paths to Initiation.

    Patriarchal Ruling Elite
    Parental! I thought we had bottom-lined this 'dispute' before
    Last edited by Andro; 09-09-2012 at 03:43 PM.

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    Oh yeah, I forgot about that. My secretary is on holy day! LOL!

    Also I want to add I am not saying the psychedelic path is the only path, I am just defending it and at the same time I am not attacking the non-psychedelic path. I recommend, not enforce. I have tried both so personally I have been able to make a clear choice. It is easy to judge something from the outside, but the view is always different from the inside (even if the conclusion is the same).

    Besides I can't OBE at will at the moment, so I need some sort of transportation. He he.

    Last edited by Awani; 09-09-2012 at 03:54 PM.
    Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

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    I presume you have not had an Ayahuasca initiation?
    No, but for a while was considering it. Why I was really interested in that, and that substance alone, and why I said it's still tempting is because according to what I've read, the main (or one of the main) hallucinogenic substance(s) in it is the same as one that is naturally synthesized by the brain during sleeping, and according to research is in some way connected with dreaming. This led me to the conclusion that with it might be possible to achieve "dreaming awake", that is, combining all the freedom and possibilities of dreaming with the awake consciousness.

    Why it is tempting is that when I was a small kid, dreaming was my primary, and pretty direct and clear connection to the spirit world. I just closed my eyes and I was instantly in the nonphysical realm, and still fully conscious. When I entered preschool, I already used this to travel to other worlds, meet different spirits and much more. However, during the early teenage, this ability of mine have been locked - and since that, I miss it very badly, it is like losing a limb... So I would probably willing to do pretty much to experience that or something similar again. So for a while I considered I should go to South America, find a shaman who is willing to guide me, and doing the whole thing in the proper way, as I believe that without the complete initiation, Ayahuasca is nothing but a drug.

    HOWEVER, I know it is very clearly, that my ability was locked for a very good reason: I awakened to some abilities too early, and before I could really use them the way they are intended to be used, I have to prepare. I know enough to see that things are in the right track, and when the learning cycle we saw necessary is complete, it will be unlocked again (many things that have been locked as well have been unlocked since that). So trying to bypass that would be stupid and unnecessary for me.

    Also, a hallucinogenic experience will never even come close to the clarity of the original experience I would try to replace with it. It is not what I really seek.

    So all in all, I don't say I will never go through such an initiation, or that I will never use hallucinogenics, but I can say for pretty sure, that if I ever DO, then it will be done not with the intent of what I described above, and will be because I received a sign that for some reason, it is necessary to do it. But it is still a brute force way, with quite a price, so resorting to that would probably be a serious case.

    not only about the 'drug' itself, but the setting, the intention and who ever is feeding you the substance.
    Of course, that's what I mentioned as well above. It is of course very different, and I do not doubt its spiritual relevance and power, but still don't consider it a very good approach. And it isn't just Dubuis, I always thought it so, and I know other, magickally and spiritually advanced persons who hold the same belief about the use of hallucinogenics.

    The Shamans are more important than the drug!
    Then why the shaman isn't enough? :P

    does that mean you can't enjoy pasta fully because you are not born in Italy?
    No, but if you REALLY needed to have Italian pasta as an important element in your life, you would have been born Italian most likely.

    And come on, a psychedelic substance and pasta cannot be compared. They are seriously different calibers.

    Besides psychedelics grow naturally all over the world, and there are entheogenic Shamanic practices all over the world as well. [...] there are psychedelics locally where I am now, here in Europe... and there are Shamans as well (also local).
    [..]
    The difference, because there is a major difference, is that in Gabon and in the Amazon the Patriarchal Ruling Elite has failed to destroy these practices, although they are trying.
    Alright. And this is why I said, that if it would be so important for you to receive this experience, you would probably (but not necessarily of course) have been born there.


    They work fast, without bullshit, without effort.
    Now. This is the very point. So, answer me only this single question:
    Do you think any development can be achieved without effort?

    And if you would say the effort in it is that you have to travel there and organize it all, do the ritual, etc. well... then all your development comes from these efforts, and not from the drug. So then is the drug really necessary? Is it needed at all?

    This sometimes annoys people who have spent ten years meditating having someone reach the same spiritual calm after 6 hours.
    In Buddhism, there are three paths. The most common path takes many, many lives to reach the goal, moksha. With the Vajrayana path however, a single life is enough. But it doesn't mean at all that it requires less effort. Also not everyone can walk that path.

    I didn't was because the time was not right. I was not ready.
    Don't forget Life doesn't deny us the option to chose incorrectly.

    Let me just also add that there is also the theory that one does not need to be ready. I have a t-shirt that says Just do it!
    Which is my motto as well. But I believe that WHEN you CAN just do it, you are already ready. But with the psychedelics, it seems to me that one tries to shortcut to something they could achieve through learning as well. It is like trying to get a PhD without attending a university.

    I wasted a lot of time thinking I was not ready
    Yes, that is indeed a common trap. I've fallen for it as well quite a few times. But sometimes you areally are not ready, and there is a great difference between thinking, and KNOWNING that you are not ready.

    Oh and I loath the New Age LSD hippie morons that roam this planet, so please don't confuse me with one of these people. LOL!
    Don't worry, I totally understand your approach. Actually, if we were talking few years ago I would have probably agreed with you in everything. But you said you were thinking like me, but then you changed your mind. Well... with me, it's the other way around. :P

    So let's sum my opinion up as this:

    I believe that while hallucinogenics may be used for good, but are very dangerous (not physically, but spiritually) and come at a price, and with some very rare exceptions, there is always a better way to achieve the same goal.

    With this said, I don't say it's clearly a bad idea, but I think it isn't the best either. Still, I respect your opinion and choice, and by no means say you shouldn't do it if that is your free will.

    But I still think, even if you are right and this is really what you need, chances that anyone else not born there also needs it are extremely low, and thus I wouldn't recommend it to others. If it really is what they need, they will find it without you recommending it anyway.

    -------------------------------

    Shamans have a saying: "Expect nothing, receive everything". And what one receives may not necessarily be what one would LIKE to receive
    I completely agree with that.
    nevertheless, it was time and it is what it is, WHEN it is.
    But then, if you didn't receive what you have LIKED, then maybe you weren't ready for it. And if you DO, it still doesn't mean it was what you NEEDED. because with free will, you have the right to chose wrong. If you ask for something that is not what you truly need, and you don't notice the signs that are warning you, then you will receive it indeed at some point, if you want it enough, even if it harms you.

    Actually, most of the shit in the ordinary person's life is there because they were asking for it, even if they didn't realize that.
    Ezalor
    --- = --- = --- = --- = --- = --- = --- = ---
    "Sic itur ad astra per aspera."

  6. #6
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    They work fast, without bullshit, without effort.
    This is the real danger of psychedelics in general. They tempt with an easy, effortless path and many see a shortcut in it instead of trying to learn.
    Ezalor
    --- = --- = --- = --- = --- = --- = --- = ---
    "Sic itur ad astra per aspera."

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    Actually, most of the shit in the ordinary person's life is there because they were asking for it, even if they didn't realize that.
    I have to agree with that Ezalor...people who use divination to get answers to questions tend not to get the
    answer to the question they asked, but still get the answer they needed if they could just see it.

    You can never make a wrong choice...you just make a choice and the outcome is what happens.

    It's like the butterfly effect...how can there be a wrong choice when you can't say the outcome of a choice
    that isn't made?

    Some people will spend many years trying to make a right choice just to be disappointed by the outcome
    when, in the same time, they could have made a million choices that they would have been happy with.

    Do you drive a car or have you flown anywhere? You could just walk, but driving gets you there quicker.

    I have to say I have thought along the lines of what you have said, but its too late to worry about it now and
    I've seen things I would not have yet encountered had I not gone down the path I did - IMHO.

    And Ayahuasca is by no means an easy path...you have to taste it


    Ghislain
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    "Dogmatic Assumption Inhibits Enquiry" Rupert Sheldrake

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    First I can't speak about meditating yourself to an altered state (or whatever tech you use), as I have no experience with it. I can only fully debate about what I have myself experienced. So I can only speak for/against psychedelics really, not for/against anything else. And neither can really anyone else. Direct experience is the key to understanding anything, IMO.

    In the Amazon Ayahuasca is called Medicine, and the Shaman is a nurse. A nurse can help you heal, but can do even more work if she has some medicine at her disposal. So no in my opinion the Shaman isn't enough, but medicine without a nurse is even worse. Saying that once initiated you don't need the Ayahuasca anymore, then the Shaman is enough I think. I listen to them regularly. These days esoteric knowledge can be downloaded into an mp3 (the Shamans sing/evoke vibrations...). I embrace high-tech combined with ancient-tech, it's the only way forward.

    As for the locality issue I disagree. Any culture/tradition is not exclusive to the people local to it. That is a narrow outlook. I cannot at this time agree to this. It goes against all my findings and experiences. The server of this forum is in the US, so what can you get from it being in Hungary?

    Anyway enough with silly allegories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezalor View Post
    This is the real danger of psychedelics in general. They tempt with an easy, effortless path and many see a shortcut in it instead of trying to learn.
    There is a lot of effort of course, don't get me wrong. The Ayahuasca doesn't stop after the ceremony, it has continued its effects over the last two years. It is hard work. When I say without effort I meant I have not been sitting meditating for days on end without result. It happens right away. Cut to the chase, as the phrase goes. That is all I meant speaking about effort.

    So I disagree, they are NOT easy. In fact if you have been an asshole all your life Ayahuasca will take you on an extremely difficult journey through what seems to be unbearable pain and heartache. But it doesn't require any skills beforehand. I only requires that you partake of the brew, and if you play your cards right you'll get out on top on the other side (no pun intended).

    Do you think any development can be achieved without effort?
    No, see above.

    Salut.

    Last edited by Awani; 09-10-2012 at 02:43 PM.
    Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezalor View Post
    Actually, most of the shit in the ordinary person's life is there because they were asking for it, even if they didn't realize that.
    http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showt...-Your-fault%21

    Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

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    But it doesn't require any skills beforehand. I only requires that you partake of the brew
    Once I was watchi9ng a documentary about these shamans. I can't tell how accurate it was, but there was a young man who wanted to be a shaman, and he said he prepares for it since many years, learning from the old shaman, and he still didn't use the Ayahuasca even once, because he is still not ready for it until the old shaman decides so.

    Alright, you don't want to be a native shaman (I guess) but still, if that was accurate, it sounds strange that a local has to prepare for it for years, and a foreigner just goes there and takes it.

    Do you drive a car or have you flown anywhere? You could just walk, but driving gets you there quicker.
    When I went to West-Tibet, I could have taken a flight from Delhi directly to Leh. Would have been there in a few hours.

    But instead, I rode a bus for a whole day to get to a small village in the jungle. There I met a local shaman, a yogi, made two great friends, met a famous spiritual artist from Srí Lanka, sat on a rocl below the bottom of a 40+ meters tall waterfall, and had a bath in a thousand years old sacred sulphuric hot bath inside a temple. Then "accidentally" bumped into seven guys who were just planning to trek through the mountains so I joined up with them. We had a one and half day long jeep ride, through the most dangerous road in the World at the Rothang la (translates as "pass of piles of dead corpses"), witnessing an accident where we ended up helping, and a glacier as it demolished the road in front of us and had to wait until some bulldozers built a new road. I saw amazingly beautiful huge mountains and cliffs, lot of jungle, and at least a hundred waterfalls. And the whole time I had to concentrate in keeping up a breathing exercise to avoid fainting and collapsing from the sudden ascent to 4000 meters. Then we walked through the mountains for seven days, and through a pass of 5100 meters. I constantly had to keep up heavy breathing as if I stopped for just a moment the world started to go black. Every evening I fell down shivering in my cheap tend designed for weekending, tortured by pain all around in my body, a very high fewer, and a bad diarrhea. I saw self-sustainable school, built from local materials that is entirely heated up during the extremely cold winters using nothing but direct sunlight coming through the windows. I visited a huge monastery built into a giant cave inside a vertical cliff, hanging above a river, with a stupa containing some ashes of Buddha, and a great tree (the ONLY tree of the area), growing on top of the mountain, directly above the stupa. At the last day, I could barely walk, and with only the speed if an old man, and was unable to climb onto the back of the "share taxi" without help. I've been shaken around for hours in the company of 5-6 man, some kids, a monk, three goats and some barley sacks, in fewer and pain until we finally arrived to Padum.
    Then I spent about two weeks with volunteer work. I visited a thousand years old hidden stupa with original wall paintings. I rode a truck with around 40(!!!) local man and woman on it, while the wemen sang local folk songs in ladakhi, on my way to the Gustor festival in Karsha where the monks performed the sacred Tibetan mask dance. We were invited for tea by the head lama of Karsha but had no time. I was however guest for tea at the King of Padum and the King of Zangla. During the volunteer work I worked mostly in a six hundred years old palace, where Csoma Sándor de Kőrös, the creator of the first Tibetan-English dictionary lived two hundred years ago, and every day I could sit and meditate in the sanctum with the 4-600 years old sacred statues, thangkas and other relics, with things all around me that in Europe one can only see in museums, under glass and heavy guard, but here I could have touched them if I wanted. I also saw a Tibetan library, with books ranging from few to many hundred years old. In the palace I discovered and recovered an old playing board carved into stone (a Tibetan game, similar to chess) and adorned with a pentagram.
    Then I lived for two days on the streets of Padum, with no money left and no bankomat in a few hundreds of kilometers range, saving my last Rupias for the bus that takes me to Leh. But finally I ended up hitchhiking a truck, on the back of it for the first hundred kilometer or so. I saw one of the biggest glaciers of the World. We had a 23 hours continuous trick ride on crazy serpentine roads through the Himalaya, when I finally arrived to Leh, where I bumped into some other volunteers and together we wenr ri visit the most interesting monasteries of the area. We sat at a morning puja (ritual). We saw a museum of invaluable old Buddhist relics. I saw three-story high Buddha statues, stupas covered in thick plates of silver and gold and adorned with many precious stones. I saw beautiful, many hundred years old wall paintings, and painted wood carvings, and many other relics.

    So... let's call this my initiation. And you know what would have I got if I take the shortcut and fly to Leh? Well... a handful of souvenirs, probably. So of course, you can always take the faster path. But usually it doesn't worth it.
    Ezalor
    --- = --- = --- = --- = --- = --- = --- = ---
    "Sic itur ad astra per aspera."

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