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Thread: Is psychedelics a valid path?

  1. #141
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    Do psychedelics stop or slow the ageing process? Soma does!
    There are some plants when ingested that do and have a psychoactive compound
    Do psychedelics lead to the acquisition of siddhi? Soma does!
    In some obscure paths of Yoga etc, but they use local plants which side effect are psychedelic.

    There is a debate whether Soma is produced from the brain and hypothalamus (divine nectar) or from a mushroom or an unknown plant.
    The craftsmanship and the story unfolding on the threadbare fabric are truly amazing. Embroidered in woollen thread on the thin cloth is a procession of Zoroastrian warriors marching towards an altar; one of them, standing at the altar, is holding a mushroom in his hands.

    A distinguishing feature of this embroidery is that the craftsmen did their best to depict the faces, costume, arms, plants, and insects, trying to copy everything from life. According to the mycologist I.A. Gorbunova (Candidate of Biology, senior researcher with the Inferior Plant Laboratory, Central Siberian Botanical Garden, SB RAS), the mushroom depicted on the carpet belongs to the Strophariaceae family. In some ways—the general habitus, shape of the cap, stitches along the edge of the cap reminding of the radial folding or remnants of the partial veil and dark inclusions on the stipe that can remind of a paleaceous ring, which blackens after the spores are puffed—it is similar to Psilocybe cubensis (Earle) Singer [Stropharia cubensis Earle]. Some of the mushrooms of the genus Stropharia cubensis, or Psilocybe cubensis, contain psilocybin—a unique stimulator of the nervous system. In their psychoactive properties, psilocybin mushrooms are much more befitting as vegetative equivalents of Soma, or Hoama, than fly agaric, which was identified with Soma in the Rigveda by R.G. Wasson in his well-known book. His point of view was supported by many famous scientists; the psychedelic theory proposed by T. McKenna even assigns the main role in human evolution to psilocybin-containing mushrooms.

    For the first time, we can see vivid evidence, embroidered on an ancient cloth discovered by archaeological excavations, for the use of mushrooms for religious purposes, probably, to make Haoma, a “sacred drink.”
    http://internationaltimes.it/we-dran...came-immortal/

    I guess the fundamental disagreement i have is that any mythological substance, apple, oil, salt , etc
    must of had an origin that man could of touched smelled tasted before it was associated with other non physical realms.
    We can see this is evident by the famous Sumerian "Old Men Become Young." plant that has a particular shape ( its on my avatar )
    If no one had ever seen it or cultivated it how could they depict its shape ?

  2. #142
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    You posted a larger image of your avatar:



    Which component in your avatar are you saying is the old man has become young plant. I searched and did not see any documents stating that a depiction of the plant of the Gilgamesh story had been discovered.




    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by Andro; 05-14-2018 at 10:17 AM. Reason: Insert image.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luxus View Post
    Do psychedelics stop or slow the ageing process? Soma does!
    Soma is clearly a psychedelic. And people do look younger, and retain a glow, after a psycehdelic ceremony. People who are happy tend to live longer as well. However it is another debate entirely but from my pesrpective I do not think the purpose of any mystical art is to prolong the life in this physical body. That sounds dumb.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luxus View Post
    Do psychedelics lead to the acquisition of siddhi?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luxus View Post
    I have see all these colours/lights myself but did not use any psychedelics to cause these.
    If you have not done psychedelics properly then how can you compare/know?

    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  4. #144
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    Hi Ghislain,

    Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for your reply. Sorry I took a while, been really busy writing a lab report for uni.

    What you have talked about in your post above is in the physical realm, brain, neurons, nerves etc...
    I talk mainly in physical terms as materialism seems the only way to evidence something to another.

    Have you considered that the "mind" may not be within the body at all, but just a data accessed from a stream elsewhere?
    Yes, I was attempting to get at this when I said:

    "mind is a portion of data collected from the Realm of Forms"

    ...and...

    "perhaps neural patterns harmonise/synchronise with the sacred data stream of the Universe/Unconscious/Realm of Forms."

    Your analogy seems a good way to look at it.

    Using your analogy:

    The-Cloud:
    Stores ALL potential data; data is static, cannot be edited or change as this would just duplicate data.

    The-Computer:
    Views and stores data from The-Cloud. Data can be "edited" and appears to "change"; though this is illusory, as with streaming a film, the whole film is on the cloud, yet we only see one part at a time. Has limited memory capacity; perhaps explaining why one seems to loose so much when coming back from a trip.

    The Computer travels The Cloud, yet never really leaves the desk.

    As for Rupert Sheldrake, blew me away. I am a little confused by his criticism of Chomsky and Universal Grammar. Though I do like his work, it sits well beside my other beliefs. He seems a very intelligent gentleman, though perhaps that is confirmation bias lol.

    Thanks for your reply,

    Loki
    Distill fact from theory, fixate on inferences drawn.
    Upon which points does the mystery turn?
    "What's the matter?", one asks.
    "The universe is mental!", one replies.
    Know The Self.

  5. #145
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    Hi Awani,

    Thanks for your reply, sorry it took me a while.

    Theories of ‘mind’
    ‘Mind’ is not a term I like to use, only used as it was in the T. McKenna quote. This is a good example of why psychology is so frustrating, many words for the same thing, most of them lacking good definition. ’Mind’ being one such word, I agree, not much evidence. How many minds can one gather in a wheelbarrow? Currently it seems the brain is the best shot we have at understanding human consciousness. If we swap out ‘mind’ for ‘brain’ we may understanding each other better, as I am sure you agree there is much evidence of the brain storing and recalling data.

    The-Cloud
    I agree this is a good analogy for the phenomena in my opinion. I have covered this in my post to Ghislain above. If we then think of the brain as The-Computer I think it is fair to say the brain has limited memory capacity.

    Triggering what is already there
    I feel it is fair to say that psychedelics are substances, therefore they are material, therefore they act on material receptors in the brain. Should one have no receptors for a substance it would have no mind altering effect. Therefore hallucinogens act on receptors one must already have, and often it seems there is a way to trigger those receptors without the substance being involved. Such an example being that both dreams and psychedelics apparently effect serotonin, dopamine, and melatonin pathways, which appear to be also active also during sleep, sensory deprivation, meditation, etc.

    The Ego
    Yet again, personally this is another term I do not like, fluffy definitions. To me ‘ego’ is nothing more that the data stored of one’s self, in one's brain. Personally I prefer the term ‘self-image’. I believe that hallucinogens allow us to bypass our self-image, which I feel has nothing to do with arrogance or pridefulness. Someone could have an ego, self-image in my terminology, and yet be self hating, or humble. I feel is that hallucinogens seem to allow one to put the data already in ones head to one side briefly to use more of ones brain for processing other data. We could say it allows one to clear something like cache memory allowing one to stream data more quickly.

    There is no such thing as solution or closure... nor truth... and the sooner a human being accepts this, the sooner progress can be made.
    On the one hand I would have to disagree. It seems clear to me there are some truths, even if these are relative. I feel the alchemists may even have been the first ones to evidence this well. Elemental metals, when melted in the same environmental conditions, seem to melt at the same temperature every time. This appears to have constancy, so far as we can currently tell. We could call this cause and effect ‘truth’. Also we could also look at deductive truths, such as the one mentioned in my original post. Circle = Circle. This will always be truth. I think this is called the law of identity, or something like that.

    At the same time, on the other hand, I do also agree that there is utility to the idea of there being no end goal. I like to think of the great work as a Sisyphean task. A never ending pursuit of higher and higher more complex ideas, with much of truth being subjective. I do believe like you that the sooner humanity accepts this the better. At the same time, I believe this should be balanced with the understanding that there are certain things, such as sugar causing obesity and diabetes, or that the human body needs water to live, that are not subjective. As evidence appears to currently point to us living in a deterministic universe.

    Always the middle path, nothing too much.

    Both your and Ghislain’s post has gave me food for thought. I think I am going to continue to work on my theories regarding alchemy and write a blog post going into more detail of my ideas, I quickly realised that there was much more I would like to say. But I wouldn’t want to derail this post too much from its purpose.

    Thanks for your post,

    Loki
    Last edited by Loki Morningstar; 05-29-2018 at 06:27 PM.
    Distill fact from theory, fixate on inferences drawn.
    Upon which points does the mystery turn?
    "What's the matter?", one asks.
    "The universe is mental!", one replies.
    Know The Self.

  6. #146
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    Thanks. Below some further thougths on the points raised. I don't claim truth here, everything written based only on direct experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki Morningstar View Post
    I am sure you agree there is much evidence of the brain storing and recalling data.
    Actually so far science does not know really how the brain stores data or even if it does. IMO. Data to power the body we know... but memories we don't really know. What about organ transplant when the receiver adopts knowledge the donor had, yet not knowing who the donor was? And where the "thinker" is?

    As you say the brain has limited RAM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki Morningstar View Post
    I feel it is fair to say that psychedelics are substances, therefore they are material, therefore they act on material receptors in the brain. Should one have no receptors for a substance it would have no mind altering effect. Therefore hallucinogens act on receptors one must already have, and often it seems there is a way to trigger those receptors without the substance being involved. Such an example being that both dreams and psychedelics apparently effect serotonin, dopamine, and melatonin pathways, which appear to be also active also during sleep, sensory deprivation, meditation, etc.
    My view is that it is not black and white, however unless perhaps death or birth... I highly doubt any non-psycehdelic technique can ever come close to the full blast of a proper dose of Ayahuasca. I simply cannot belive it until I experience it myself. Perhaps there are sages and shamans with extreme powers, but when it comes to "normal" people... they can chant or dance or pray as much as they like... and spend years learning techniques and skills... why even bother or waste the time, when you can have an experience you could never achieve without psychedelics... and have it without effort. Although there is great effort involved in a sense. It is certainly not easy... but it does not require any pre-knowledge so to speak.

    Sure you can OBE and astral travel, and do all sorts of things without psychedelics. I do not doubt that.

    But psychedelics is AN EXPERIENCE. There are multiple levels and happenings in a psychedelic experience that simply cannot be done without doing it. IMO. I mean you cannot have a full on roller coaster experience unless you go on a roller coaster. You cannot have a sexual expereince unless you have sex. You cannot have a psychedelic experience without psychedelics. It is logically, statistically and linguistically impossible... but everything is probable.

    The psychedelic experience is visionary, it is a review of your life, it is a future/past life experience, it is wisdom imparting, it is funny, it is scary, it is visually beautiful, it provides an emotional roller coaster, it heals, it empowers, there is death, there is OBE... there are hundreds of aspects/happenings in a single psychedelic experience... too many things that ONE person would never be able to achieve at will, on their own, in one sitting. That, to me, sounds impossible. And then have that experience resonate and influence that persons life for decades to come.

    I have no evidence so far in my dream experience to even begin to suggest that dreaming or the dream realm is even close to the psycehdelic experience. I have never seen any similarities at all. They are, in my experience, totally different.

    Counter argument: there is this concept of smoking DMT within a dream and I have yet managed to do it. But as far as I understand, if one is dreaming and gets the chance to partake of a psychedelic WITHIN the dream then the experience will be a psycehdelic experience. This could be a sort of proof that it is within the mind... but as I said I have yet not managed to do this.

    It still doesn't really provide proof, because I would still claim that dreaming, psychedelic experience and such matters have very little to do with the brain or even with mind... that is why that McKenna quote is so good.

    I think we are living inside a small box, and the psychedelic experience opens the box up... and we get to experience the universe WITHOUT any boundaries. Even less boundaries than when dreaming IMO.

    Why less than when dreaming?

    Because in my experience even when dreaming, the enteties and the beings I meet in a dream still feel like projections or parts of myself. They don't seem like complete seperate enteties. However in the psychedelic experience they are. And there is also the aspect that there is a progression of time.

    When you smoke DMT and go into the DMT realm you have an experience, then if you smoke and return a week later time has passed in that realm. Now this is an aspect that suggests that the psycehdelic realm is a "real" place on a time line without time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki Morningstar View Post
    I do also agree that there is utility to the idea of there being no end goal.
    If someone thinks there will be a resolution they are in for a very bad "trip". LOL.

    Embrace the mystery.

    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  7. #147
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    Understanding the psychedelic experience is, in my humble opinion probably the most important, interesting and urgent avenue of science, theology and psychology in the world right now. Everything else is secondary and boring.

    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  8. #148
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    Some interesting points. I assure you I do not claim truth here either. As you say, this is just my opinions based on what I have experienced or read so far.

    How does the brain store data?
    My reading had lead me to be believe that the brain does store data, even memories, a good example of this is the Penfield experiments (Penfield & Perot, 1963). Penfield was able to stimulate vivid recall of past memories in his patients via electrically stimulating the temporal lobe. He did quite a bit of interesting research, also mapping the motor cortex and creating a diagram named Penfield’s homunculus.

    Where is the thinker?
    Now this is a very interesting subject to study. The brain seems to be a modular neural network. The widely held view is that there is not a central executive; as this leads to infinite regression, sometimes called the homunculus argument; it appears that function-specific parts the brain work in parallel, thereby there is no centre. Although at the same time, the frontal lobes seem to have some executive functions such as inhibiting urge driven behaviour. I could go deeper, though my knowledge is rusty and I would have to refresh myself to say things with accuracy, perhaps another time, another thread.

    Perhaps there are sages and shamans with extreme powers, but when it comes to "normal" people... they can chant or dance or pray as much as they like... and spend years learning techniques and skills... why even bother or waste the time, when you can have an experience you could never achieve without psychedelics... and have it without effort. Although there is great effort involved in a sense. It is certainly not easy... but it does not require any pre-knowledge so to speak.
    IMO nothing worth doing is easy. One person could take psychedelics and never find the path. Whereas another may already be on the path and find them helpful. I think it does take pre-knowledge. Additionally both of the above will need to do hard work to travel further down the path and I don’t think psychedelics alone can get you there. Wasting time? I think not, enjoy the path, enjoy the travel, if you enjoy your work you’ll never work a day in your life.

    But psychedelics is AN EXPERIENCE. There are multiple levels and happenings in a psychedelic experience that simply cannot be done without doing it. IMO. I mean you cannot have a full on roller coaster experience unless you go on a roller coaster. You cannot have a sexual expereince unless you have sex. You cannot have a psychedelic experience without psychedelics. It is logically, statistically and linguistically impossible... but everything is probable.
    I agree, depending on your aims, I doubt any experience can come close to psychedelics if a psychedelic experience is what you are looking for, and I am not knocking it AS AN EXPERIENCE. I really enjoyed mushrooms and the sensation and visions I had with them. And as you say, I think they have a time and place, especially for blasting “norms”, as you put it, to give them an idea of what they are attempting to attain. I suppose what I am trying to say is that I think they can be valid part of the path, but in my humble opinion they are not a path in and of themselves, but perhaps this is semantics.

    Because in my experience even when dreaming, the entities and the beings I meet in a dream still feel like projections or parts of myself. They don't seem like complete separate entities. However in the psychedelic experience they are. And there is also the aspect that there is a progression of time.
    I suppose in this sense perhaps I am just lucky, I have extremely vivid dreams. Even my day dreams can take me to awesome places. I have had people teach me things in dreams that I believe I did not know before the dream. I have had experiences with meditation and binaural beats where beings have taught me things. They assured me that I will be able to access other levels and that they would show me the way, but I would have to purify my vessel first otherwise I would taint the learnings. But that is whole other story lol. Please don't get me wrong, I feel I am very much new to the path, but I can't help feel that slowly slowly catches monkey, and psychedelics feels like using a sledgehammer to open a beer can to me. As we have both said, these are just our opinions, and it takes all sorts to make the world go round. I am glad everyone is different, makes it easier to learn from others experiences.

    If someone thinks there will be a resolution they are in for a very bad "trip". LOL.
    Now here is something we can both completely agree on lol.
    Last edited by Loki Morningstar; 05-29-2018 at 08:12 PM.
    Distill fact from theory, fixate on inferences drawn.
    Upon which points does the mystery turn?
    "What's the matter?", one asks.
    "The universe is mental!", one replies.
    Know The Self.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awani View Post
    Understanding the psychedelic experience is, in my humble opinion probably the most important, interesting and urgent avenue of science, theology and psychology in the world right now. Everything else is secondary and boring.

    Here here!!! But I can't help feel one must go through the more "boring" stuff to get there, like understanding the brain, even if it is just to write it off.
    Last edited by Loki Morningstar; 05-29-2018 at 08:24 PM.
    Distill fact from theory, fixate on inferences drawn.
    Upon which points does the mystery turn?
    "What's the matter?", one asks.
    "The universe is mental!", one replies.
    Know The Self.

  10. #150
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    Well we have used the term psycehdelic experience, but most of the time I am talking about an Ayahuasca experience.

    Ayahuasca cannot be compared to the other psycehdelics (at least the ones I have tried), and it is in a league of its own. IMO. Iboga even more powerful, but for me personally it is Ayahuasca that is my teacher.

    You are correct that psychedelics is not the path on its own. But it certainly is part of the path. Even if I never do any psycehdelics again for the rest of my life, they will never leave me. My relationship with them, and what I have experienced, is now part of who I am. There is no separation between me and Ayahuasca. Ayahuasca is the teacher... so if I follow the teacher then I am on the teachers path... and the teacher is a plant. So...

    To gain something, and to ride the wave then yes you need some experience and pre-knowledge... but I can take anyone in the world, sit that person down and make them smoke a large hit of DMT... and like it or not, they are going to "go somewhere". They don't need any pre-knowledge for this. Just shut the fuck up and inhale. LOL.

    I could have achieved what I have achieved without psychedelics, although I would have probably wasted 30 years doing it "the natural" way... maybe more, maybe never.

    Just one example out of thousands: I would never have forgiven my father and let my issues regarding my father go. Not a soul on this planet, not the best psychologist could have ever made me give up my hate. It was a part of who I was. I had carried that hate for 25+ years... I enjoyed it. And I was planning to do something. Violence. Revenge. Fraud. Something... maybe only in fantasy... but I would never let it go. NEVER.

    Ayahuasca removed it in 3.5 hours. Gone. Forever. Free.

    That is ONE example only.

    Yes, maybe I could have reached my current feelings about my father without psychedelics... that is possible, yes. But why suffer for decades, when you can be cured in a moment? Only an idiot would take the long path. Now I can focus on the REAL issues... not waste precious time on bullshit issues.

    The funny thing is I did not even request Ayahuasca to deal with this issue. I did not even think it was an issue.

    Ayahuasca had other ideas. LOL.

    ---------------------------------

    For someone that has not worked properly with Ayahuasca it might sound crazy... I can only say that what I speak is true based on what I have experienced... and Ayahuasca is self-conscious. No doubt.

    Jesus saith... because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. - John 20:29 [KJV]

    ---------------------------------

    The podcast has 30 000 downloads... 200 episodes soon... had dinner with Dennis McKenna thanks to the podcast and expanded my network in terms of cool people. Ayahuasca told me to do the podcast. Not I.

    I manage a charity that is growing by the day. A lot of doors has opened and some pretty amazing opportunities has occured due to this. Ayahuasca told me to start the charity.

    I have a beautiful daughter. Ayahuasca told me to create a child. I was against it before.

    The list goes on and on.

    Basically by now if Ayahuasca tells me to jump off a cliff I go: Yes Sir!

    Ayahuasca is my fucking manager, that never gives bad advice. You can claim it is coming from deep within me... sure you could claim that. But frankly... I don't recognize my own voice when it speaks. So... yes... mystery... embrace the mystery.

    ---------------------------------

    Also it has been soon 4 years since I had my last Ayahuasca ceremony... I am still going through my notes... so those that think I drink every week are way off...



    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

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