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Thread: Tantric Alchemy

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    Tantric Alchemy

    Quote Originally Posted by Androgynus View Post
    Spiritus Mundi
    It is said that in the End-Days, all that is secret and hidden would be openly revealed.

    Not just the secrets we think we desperately want to uncover, not just the mysteries of Creation, Nature and Art...
    But also the secrets so many of us are scared to find out - or to be found out about.

    I too read that about 50 years ago when I started looking seriously, when I was about 14 and started looking seriously for Tantric Alchemy. You have no idea what a stir a 14 year old boy back in 1962 looking for Tantric Alchemy books at the public library. I had an adult card since I was 9 years old. I spent days in the locked stacks in the Cleveland public library. I found a few things on Tantric Alchemy. There were lots of temple pictures showing things absolutely unseeable by a 14 year old in 1962 explicitly sexual carvings, paintings and the like. There were deadly boring tracts by late 19th century Christian anthrolpologists saying why such filth must be wiped off the face of the earth, or at least restricted to "qualified professionals" only, until such things are wiped from the face of the Earth and then all knowledge of it permanenttly removed from the knowlege of mankind for the good of all. It did make an impression on me of the necessity of keeping a really low profile.

    I did that for most of the past 50 years. And sure enough, the clues are literally everywhere


    There are all manner of things I could tell you about how to find the experience of "first self awareness" of the that consciousness that created the "world" we exist in. Whether I can say it well enough to be understood is another thing entirely. Whether I can say it in such a way that anybody reading it is willing to suspend disbelief sufficient to be able to travel in the labyrinth to that experience is in for "now for something completely different".

    I fully agree with E.J. Gold on the "secret keeps itself". Anything that is truely secret can't be (chose all that apply) heard, understood, spoken, written. People speak great secrets all the time that they don't even remember speaking if the person across from them needs to hear it. If a person has "work necessitiy" to be informed on something, they will be. The creation of "work necessity", now there is one of the real secrets.

    Again, as EJ Gold said decades ago , "the great secrets are available for $1.95 in paperback (a little dated as far as inflation goes)" and now even as free downloads.

    Here is a great secret to get you started "In order to get 'good' answers, one must ask 'good; questions". In other worrds GIGO.

    The real trick is to recognize the great secrets as they are as carelessly splashed around as is so much more tripe. One person's "great secret" is another's "That's no secret, I've known it all my life". There is no more perfect camoflage.

    BE IN LOVE
    Last edited by Andro; 11-14-2012 at 07:43 PM. Reason: Quotation brackets fixed.

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    Tantric Alchemy

    The discussion initiated by Illen A. Cluf in this post, is now continued here on this thread.
    ____________________________________

    Quote Originally Posted by Illen A. Cluf View Post
    I'm not familiar with tantric alchemies. Can you tell me more about it? Thanks.
    Tantric alchemies are all about learning to "know thy self". No additional apparatus outside of our own bodies is needed, though I find a massage table and a lot of cushions helpful. No dangerous chemicals, though in many of the modes shamanic substances are used from time to time as appropriate. Others call it Tantric Yoga. Perhaps there is a distinction there. Tantra is a nondual philosophy. As with all non-dual systems, at the root, "Thou art God" to quote Michael Valintine Smith.

    So "Tantra" can mean all sorts of things. It is "weaving" as in the tapastry of life. A "tantra" is a divine dialog (channeled for instance) between the divine male and divine female (ie Shiva and Shakti or some other suitable pair) on esoteric and esoteric sexual matters. Tantra incorparated nutrition and healing the body, the arts of all kinds, spiritual practice and most specifically using the channels of the divine built into the body. Tantra gets reinterpreted over and over again. All living teachings get restated in understandable (hopefully) language over and over. So here and now, when I say anything about tantra, it is in 21st century English such as I know it and not restricted by 140 chracter limit. My understandings and interpretations are headed more and more towards Object Oriented Tantra, which is a newer way to speak and think about anything complex beyond understanding.


    Tantra uses and incorporates the body and the many energies included. Most are aware of the seven chakras of Hindu understanding. Others use the 10 chakras of the Buddhist Tantra. Then there is the system with a single heart chakra that includes all the petals. In all there are about 2000 such "petals". Each one is like a fiber optic data line of near infinite capacity with a multilayered speed of light compression algorythym.

    So, the catch is in the language. Let's take the vulva (lower gate of heaven in some terminologies) and linga for example. They each have perhaps 20-30 separate distinct "energies" that can be specifically aroused in combinations and sequences, like musical notes, that can become sort of a modem carrier frequency that leads to "bliss". This bliss can look like any of a dozen or so forms of "orgasm", can go on for hours, can carry one into the Eternal realm and back again. The effect is often called "shaktipat". Until one learns to carry memory across the time zone changes, any expereince in the Eternal Now is over in a blink of an eye, even if one spent billions and billions of subjective lifetimes there. If one happens to have a clock in the field of view it can seem to jump hours ahead or even some minutes backwards.


    Now one way to describe all this, hook it to something approachable, is to call it a "living God(dess) communion". This is noticing the effect of "When two or more are gathered in my name, there so am I" or perhaps "there so I AM" is more accurate. Tantric sex is sacred prayer and communion with the Living God(dess). Each time we do so we grow, we get added upon. Then we scurry around in our lives for a while adopting the new KNOWING into our lives and then go back to the sacred communion for the next installment. The Living God(dess) communion is invoked by 2 or more performing certain cooperative "prayers". Shaktipat only occurs if the receiver is open to it and has surrendered the barriers to the divine sufficiently. J.R. Haule speaks of "Erotic Trance" in his formerly free downloadable books, now about to be published by a University Press. That is the basic entry point, everything else follows from there. It can take 6 months to a year for a person to learn how to enter erotic trance easily. Aong the way a person may also learn the 7 (up to 10 depending upon who you read) forms of Taoist orgasm), hour long orgasm, and the such. After that a pair of Tantric Partners can start opening the many and various "gates" or temples and so on spoken of in mystical literature. Working alone, which I have done more of than you might imagine, is just not the same. In September in two hours I was able to teach a woman and her husband who were ready, how to go into erotic trance and have an introductory experience of living God(des) communion. On the web OneTaste is teaching OM, Orgasmic Meditation, which is an introduction to this under a different non spiritual "life style" setup. I don't care in the least what they call their specific Alchemical methods.

    BE IN LOVE
    Last edited by Andro; 03-16-2013 at 07:17 PM. Reason: Spin-Off Thread Management.

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    So in learning to feel, sense, "see" and work with the radiant energy of the other person, entering erotic trance when one shares such radiant energy with another, so where does that belong? I have to confess I have no idea how to classify that but it is at the heart of Tantric Alchemy. Sex is one very effective way of working with said radiant energies. So where does that belong? A circle of persons working with said energies is very powerful, much more so than 2 people alone as those radiant energies are increased. One can be aware of the radius of these energies by the size of the circles of barking dogs set off by the energies.
    Last edited by Andro; 11-15-2012 at 01:28 AM. Reason: Thread topic management. Posted content remains intact.

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    Hi III,

    Thank you for your very clear overview. I'll look for J.R. Haule's papers (hope they're still free) and study this a little more thoroughly. While the sexual approach may work for some couples, I don't think my wife would co-operate too enthusiastically with this type of experimentation. She has absolutely no interest in alchemy to begin with.
    But I assume that there must be other approaches that work just as well.

    I have been in some incredibly profound trances before, during which I felt that all the complete understanding of everything in the Universe was opened to me. I remember being totally amazed, but when I came out of the trance, the only memory was what I just described - unfortunately the understanding was lost immediately, although I remembered "knowing". I learned how to put oneself in a trance when I was a teenager. I practiced it daily for a year, and then often for at least a decade or two since then. I never once got into a trance. The trance happened without any intent whatsoever. It was spontaneous, although at the time I was trying to figure out a puzzle and was concentrating on it very intensely. The peak period lasted for maybe an hour, but after coming out of the trance, I was in an elevated state for at least a day. During the trance I felt like my skin was burning - like having a fever, but without the ill effects. It was a "glowing" feeling. That was perhaps ten years ago, and I have not had another such experience since.

    Illen

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Illen A. Cluf View Post
    Hi III,
    Quote Originally Posted by Illen A. Cluf View Post

    Thank you for your very clear overview. I'll look for J.R. Haule's papers (hope they're still free) and study this a little more thoroughly. While the sexual approach may work for some couples, I don't think my wife would co-operate too enthusiastically with this type of experimentation. She has absolutely no interest in alchemy to begin with. But I assume that there must be other approaches that work just as well.

    I have been in some incredibly profound trances before, during which I felt that all the complete understanding of everything in the Universe was opened to me. I remember being totally amazed, but when I came out of the trance, the only memory was what I just described - unfortunately the understanding was lost immediately, although I remembered "knowing". I learned how to put oneself in a trance when I was a teenager. I practiced it daily for a year, and then often for at least a decade or two since then. I never once got into a trance. The trance happened without any intent whatsoever. It was spontaneous, although at the time I was trying to figure out a puzzle and was concentrating on it very intensely. The peak period lasted for maybe an hour, but after coming out of the trance, I was in an elevated state for at least a day. During the trance I felt like my skin was burning - like having a fever, but without the ill effects. It was a "glowing" feeling. That was perhaps ten years ago, and I have not had another such experience since.

    Illen


    Hi Illen,

    In practice there are a whole lot of Tantric Alchemy methods from the strictly non-physical to quite physical. Gazing, joined meditation and massage is often sufficient for syncronizing energies. The problem is that if she doesn't like ecstatic practices, and won't meditate and doesn't want to change and evolve, she would not be cooperative in any case. What does she think Alchemy is about? Does she think it is looking for mythical gold or such or that it is about transforming one's self into spiritual gold. via communion with the divine? If she isn't in it for spiritual purposes what idea would she buy into? Goddess circles with a bunch of women can be very excellent. Haule's book is no longer avialable for download and is not yet available for sale. Check his website and there is probably a synopsis avaialable. I have had wonderful experiences being the only male, supplying those energies, to a dozen or more awakened ladies doing nothing more than sitting in a circle and joining in certain types of prayers. THE HIDDEN WORK my E.J. Gold has the Prayer Absolute invocation in it, most useful for a group that has at least one person who already knows how but also instruction of how to get started. That book is based on the LABYRINTH terminology developed in THE ORIGINAL AMERICAN BOOK OF THE DEAD, LIFE IN THE LABYRINTH and THE HUMAN BIOLOGICAL MACHINE AS A TRANSFORMATIONAL APPARATUS. PRACTICAL WORK ON SELF is a set of 26 attention exercises to be used over a year for training the skills needed.

    Entering a joined trance state with another of the "erotic trance" type may be a whole other kettle of fish from individual trance but it is a start. This doesn't have to be erotic but the erotic energies cause the opening being sought. Many people RUN from the opening urge with the erotic energies. The secret to enlightenment is to be willing to look all those places one CAN'T look now.

    The puzzle to be solved is our own maze of blocks to the Living Light built up over many lifetimes.


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    Quote Originally Posted by III View Post
    Hi Illen,
    In practice there are a whole lot of Tantric Alchemy methods from the strictly non-physical to quite physical. Gazing, joined meditation and massage is often sufficient for syncronizing energies. The problem is that if she doesn't like ecstatic practices, and won't meditate and doesn't want to change and evolve, she would not be cooperative in any case. What does she think Alchemy is about? Does she think it is looking for mythical gold or such or that it is about transforming one's self into spiritual gold. via communion with the divine? If she isn't in it for spiritual purposes what idea would she buy into? Goddess circles with a bunch of women can be very excellent. Haule's book is no longer avialable for download and is not yet available for sale. Check his website and there is probably a synopsis avaialable. I have had wonderful experiences being the only male, supplying those energies, to a dozen or more awakened ladies doing nothing more than sitting in a circle and joining in certain types of prayers. THE HIDDEN WORK my E.J. Gold has the Prayer Absolute invocation in it, most useful for a group that has at least one person who already knows how but also instruction of how to get started. That book is based on the LABYRINTH terminology developed in THE ORIGINAL AMERICAN BOOK OF THE DEAD, LIFE IN THE LABYRINTH and THE HUMAN BIOLOGICAL MACHINE AS A TRANSFORMATIONAL APPARATUS. PRACTICAL WORK ON SELF is a set of 26 attention exercises to be used over a year for training the skills needed.
    Entering a joined trance state with another of the "erotic trance" type may be a whole other kettle of fish from individual trance but it is a start. This doesn't have to be erotic but the erotic energies cause the opening being sought. Many people RUN from the opening urge with the erotic energies. The secret to enlightenment is to be willing to look all those places one CAN'T look now.
    The puzzle to be solved is our own maze of blocks to the Living Light built up over many lifetimes.
    Hi III,

    I didn't see that the thread was moved here. It's also moved to another location, which I was checking.

    My wife thinks alchemy is another foolish old man's pursuit like Kabbalah, etc. She feels that men are obsessed with "secrets", secret organizations, secret teachings, secret whatever, etc. Women are generally not drawn to this type of pursuit.

    I found Haule's site and he includes several chapters from most of his books. So I wil go through those to get a "feel" for his teachings.

    Illen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illen A. Cluf View Post
    Hi III,
    Quote Originally Posted by Illen A. Cluf View Post

    I didn't see that the thread was moved here. It's also moved to another location, which I was checking.

    My wife thinks alchemy is another foolish old man's pursuit like Kabbalah, etc. She feels that men are obsessed with "secrets", secret organizations, secret teachings, secret whatever, etc. Women are generally not drawn to this type of pursuit.

    I found Haule's site and he includes several chapters from most of his books. So I wil go through those to get a "feel" for his teachings.

    Illen
    Hi Illen,

    Haule is not teaching. He is a Jungian therapist who untook the practice of Tantric Alchemy to better understand. In the previous version he detailed this experience and tied it into theory and so forth. He has had 10 more years to add more chapters as he carries it farther. The book of interest is INDECENT PRACTICES - Understanding Tantra.


    alchemy is another foolish old man's pursuit like Kabbalah, etc. She feels that men are obsessed with "secrets", secret organizations, secret teachings, secret whatever


    As far as your wife goes, Tantric alchemy is extremely different from anything she is even thinking about. Change terminology. How does she like "sacred sex"? Or would she prefer to learn "hour long orgasms" or the "7 levels of Taoist orgasm"? It's a different kind of prayerful meditation. The only secrets are in the learning. Does learning the practice of ecstacy appeal to her? Of course if all she thinks is right and proper is 10 minutes of missionary position none of that will work. If she would like to be adored and learn the best sex she has ever had then she might like a different take on it. It's much more like learning to play a musical instrument than anything else in some ways. What an organ to learn on!

    Learning can start in the first minutes. There doesn't have to be any mystery or secrets or secret organization. All of that is of the ego and at best is a distraction.

    It's an Alchemy of LOVE. And LOVE provokes folks worst fears.

    BE IN LOVE


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    Tantric yoga is closely related to Kundalini yoga. They both are closely involved in learning to sense and work with the radiant energy that flows through us and all around us. When I was younger I used to describe this awareness was like living in a sea of low density water in which we can feel currents, perceive information, literally see how the people shape the space around them and how they block of the flow of the divine energy of LOVE. LOVE is irritating at first. It irritates all the blockages to it.

    A cycle of the Alchemy might occur with an experience of more energy flowing, whether started by consciously releasing Kundalini, sharing it with another person or entering via the energies of any of the chakras assisted with physical behaviors. Then those involved have their blockages irritated by the energy and they go into unconscious reaction and emotions of many kinds. The experience is different if one is taught to WAKE UP first from walking sleep. The more awake a person becomes, the more they see themselves and the mechanism of their blockages instead of being thrown into unconscious reaction that is completely mechanical and non-conscious. When they can see the actual location and nature of their blockages they can then remove the trigger and put in place a more knowledgable understanding. These energies need moderation at first as one can get kind of crispy with a Kundalini overdose. When a sufficient degree of tolerance and capacity for LOVE is developed along with the skills, one becomes able to do an alchemical sequence in shorter and shorter times until "the snake eats his tail" and it becomes continuous. Then starts a whole new phase of work.

    A proposed physical basis for being able to work with the energies will be forthcoming.

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    What I don't understand is why people always only talk about "Tantric sex" when in fact the real point of Tantra, what is referred to as "bliss" or "ecstasy" doesn't have anything to do with sexual pleasure.
    Ezalor
    --- = --- = --- = --- = --- = --- = --- = ---
    "Sic itur ad astra per aspera."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezalor View Post
    What I don't understand is why people always only talk about "Tantric sex" when in fact the real point of Tantra, what is referred to as "bliss" or "ecstasy" doesn't have anything to do with sexual pleasure.


    Hi Ezalor,

    People are more apt to buy "Tantric Sex" and great sex rather than Tantric Alchemy and with the cost being all of their most cherished beliefs and dreams, fears and nightmares. As J.R. Haule has stated 99% of those purporting to be teaching Tantra are teach tantric sex not Tantric Alchemy. In any case that is probably a public service. The American level of sexual knowledge is pathetically bad. I can teach a couple more about practical sex in two hours than they have learned in 30 years of married life. That is pretty sad. Most men know almost nothing, and I'm speaking pragmaticaly, not academic knowledge. Ask the ladies.

    I'm going to borrow a phrase. The Tantra that can be spoken is not the Eternal Tantra. With that said "bliss", "ecstacy" and other such words may have dozens of desciptions because they can be caused by dozens of different energies. Perhaps, if a person is versitile enough, each and every energy represented by each petal of all chakras can be taken to "bliss".

    what is referred to as "bliss" or "ecstasy" doesn't have anything to do with sexual pleasure

    And you KNOW this how? A lot of intellectual wiggling euphemism has been expended on this exact matter. As is said in the last 30 years or so, with more explicit language, that in Tantra that the purpose of Tantra isn't orgasm but "ecstacy". "Sexual pleasure" isn't the question. And this is written concerning males generally. And even that is not really clear. It's about ejaculation. If sexual pleasure is ejaculation, then that might be true. However, sexual pleasure comes during all types and stages of sex and is impossible to avoid and find ecstacy. And that is often stated in literally physiologically impossible terms like the semen literally rising up the spinal column, NONSENSE. It has been restated multiple different ways this past century as traditional euphemisms are shown to be physiological nonsense. Now the sensation of energy going up the spine, sure. I'll go with that. Kundalini etc. We had a reasonably extensive discussion of the whole semen issue previously, search for the words. So let me state it plainly here as clearly as I can. Male ejaculation is bypassed, at least initially. I specifically say bypassed as opposed to surpressed because supressing it has the generally wrong results. At that moment, just before ejaculation is the moment of ejaculatory inevitability (modern language). At that point ejaculation can be bypassed while allowing the orgasmic energy to occur. Without the ejaculation to cut it off, that energy continues and builds, reaches a complete drive you nuts type energy. Keep going. No matter what keep focused and keep it going. At a certian point with a partner it becomes self generating, it "lases" and one goes into Eternal "bliss". However, while it is not "sexual satisfaction" with ejaculation, it is endless orgasm, cosmic orgasm as sometimes called. Otherwise it is what women are generally more easily taught as one of many types or levels of orgasm. Usually this energy, spontaniously starting would cause panic and immediate cutoff. In a sexual context it can just happen because it can just do a fade-in as part of the sexual energy. They are indistinguisable. A lot of guys might find 4 hours of unending ecstacy without ejaulation frustrating, not "sexual satisfaction". The final objection before slipping into the ecstatic NOW is usually "but I've got to stop it, it could go on all night". Then, again as EJ Gold says the Labyrinth is composed of nothing but distractions. "Ecstacy" or "Bliss" is the sum total of massive distraction. Now one takes this "Ecstacy", regardless of how started, and sexual yoga is great for it and much easier than most methods, very direct, then needs to be transmuted into WISDOM. How much pleasure can you stand? Can you learn to allow complete surrender to extreme ecstacy that allows it to transform into WISDOM.

    The real point of Tantra is WISDOM, LOVE, ENLIGHTENMENT etc whatever all that is or means. One can use the energy to heat your tea (Bliss) or to add information (WISDOM) to ones self, evolution, Alchemy.

    I find a lot of humor in the degree of fear people have of sex and of achieving ecstacy via sexual means and the terribly elaborate reasons. Usually they fear ecstacy in any way. Of course they are usually cutting themsleves off in about every way. I'm not talking about the horrid treatment around sex that many of experienced. That is caused by this fear and hate of sex basically making people at war with themselves and taking it out on others. I don't find that humorous but sad. And the humor of people shooting themselves in the foot is funny on some levels and sad again on others. Surely, we must take our humor where we can find it.

    I'm not a hedonist, fortunately, as this life would not have been a good one for a hedonist. I do however have no objection to enjoying life when the opportunity comes along. I'm not an ascetic. And I'll choose the rare juicy steak despite knowing it's an illusion.

    Then there is a different pathway right at the beginning. That is to couple the energies to increasing consciousness with ones partner, "awake conscious sex" in which one reaches the "living Goddess communion" state with ones partner. That is not a traditional Tantric description that I am aware of. If we looked in enough Tanrtras we would probably find it described in some way or another.

    And of course, for a variety of Alchemical purposes ejaculation is required, to be combined with the priestesses's contributions and reacted in the chalice stirred by the wand and reacted with the proper energies to make the Elixer of life. This also is discussed elsewhere at some length. Have fun.


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