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Thread: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

  1. #1

    The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

    This is a Phoenix-thread from the old site.

    I just wanted to get this thread started so we can begin discussion on this mysterious matter. I don't have much time to search for references, but if nobody else posts them tonight, then I guess I'll do it.

    Here's something Carabric said in another thread:

    "But no- I do not believe his rocks [referring to pitchblende] are in any way shape or form related to the secret fire of the alchemist. They will tell you that it is of a vaporous quality & nature- I suppose if you really want to stretch the metaphor, perhaps to the point of torture, his radioactive rocks could be vaporous in nature."
    Quote Originally Posted by carabric
    Theories abound- the arcane fire would most likely be brought out and nourished by the art of sublimation. This is not the same definition of sublimation found in various dictionaries, since the most ancient alchemist would not likely possess the means to phase change from solid to gas with no intermediate watery phase in the middle (much like the recent icy finds discovered on Mars). Taking that into account, it would likely be something which would collect in the neck of the glass and only after many repetitions is it brought to maturity. Either way, I believe it is something which can only be understood via experimentation.
    I am critical of Arts work as well as Albert Cau's, or for that matter anyone whom eschews what I feel as Alchemists are the facets of the art that should be hammered into our heads. This of course being the putrefaction, purification, and rubefication of the work that many throughout the record extol. I'm left to ask, in what way is sealing a pear in a large glass container with radioactive rocks considered alchemy? Or many other blind experiments produced by the few practitioners.
    This aside, the fire is not likely seen till it's near end, and would not be something easily perceived by those outside the art. But I truly feel it is a fire nourished by fire, and is represented clibanically or geometrically in proportion to the two other fires which nourish it...namely the fire of nature (our sun) and the crude fire of the pit or kiln. The latter is often mentioned as the one most likely to destroy the work, and should only rise in slow proportion to the phases of nature and without haste.
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Beautiful forum, congratulations.

    About the Secret Fire, we must take into account that each path has its own Secret Fire. For example: sublimate of mercury; Vitriol, Niter, salpeter, etc...; ¿There is a Universal Secret Fire to open all the locks? ¡Yes! but not burned, nor is burned and needs no fire or flames to be activated. Is a miracle of nature, and is nature whoever produces.
    Saturne-Natures...: The old green monster who devoured its progeny. That is a good and faithful metaphor. This secret fire is universal because helps generate the seed of metals by giving the conditions they need to grow in mines. You may think: He`s talking about mercury in metals ... and I say no...; about the sulphur..., and I say no, again... I say we continue to nature; to follow his steps...

    I`m very much regret not being able to give the secret openly because it is the most precious and the key fundamental in nature. I`m still working on that path, but I know is the best...

    I just want to ask them not to forget this alternative. Be simple in his reasoning and remember that any material that feel the fire, it´s knocked irreparably. Teachers do not burn with fire but with "water" ...

    I don´t use any quimic salts, acids, glases or fire.

    It`s a long humid path but the most noble.
    Quote Originally Posted by theFool
    In its most subtle form, Fire is the One Only Thing, the Undivided Light, from which all is derived. Fire is energy and energy is matter. This most subtle fire is variously called Celestial Fire, Heaven, Universal Fire, Astral Gold, Divine Will, and many more. It is described as the purest grade of fire; not burning, but gentle; invisible and known only by its operations. It is the source of all other forms of fire and its visible representative for us is the Sun. [...]

    Robert Bartlett in "Real Alchemy"
    And he continues to explain how this Celestial Fire operates:
    [...] As the Celestial Fire begins to coagulate or condense, it forms "an invisible most subtle humidity" as the Element Air. This process of inspissation or thickening continues and the Air condenses into the Water Element, then Water condenses into the Earth Element.
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    This process of inspissation or thickening continues and the Air condenses into the Water Element, then Water condenses into the Earth Element.

    Accurate! completely agree; when more subtle or pure you can catch it will be the most natural alchemical path. In the bowels of the earth is a volatile vapor, erratic and without form. In the end is condensed into a substance ground very subtle and tender, although not specified to any kingdom in particular. That's why the adepts tell us that our matter is not mineral or metallic.
    In this part of the Work, nature does all her own. The art does not create, only purifies the production of nature.

    If we want to get the philosophical celestial fire in the most pure and simple form, we must understand what is this first terrestrial indefinite and volatile matter.

    Forget the complicated and exausting works with the dew or alkaline salts and focus on this primary sustance. This substance has everything you need.

    TV.NE.CEDE.MALIS.
    Quote Originally Posted by theFool
    This secret fire is universal because helps generate the seed of metals by giving the conditions they need to grow in mines.
    This reminds me of what Alan Bartlett says in his book about menstruums:
    They were [the menstruums], in addition, held to be filled with the vital life force and could transfer that Universal Fire to the subject of the operation - even to revivify materials. Just as the menstruum nurtures and forms the fetus, so the alchemist's menstrua possesses a nutritive power to bring forth the Chemical Child or Living Medicine.
    And indeed, he mentions the existence of the Secret Fire as a special menstruum:
    In some texts, a special menstruum may be referred to as Secret Fire, which provokes the dissolution or separation of the subject without the need of external fire.
    This comes very close to your words, pierre:
    Teachers do not burn with fire but with "water" ...
    So, maybe we should take a closer look at those "texts".
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Alan Bartlett..., hummm! ¿Do you know where can I find that book?

    Yes; on the way that I follow, the spiritus mundi is incorporated in the philosophical tender matter, that acts like a magnet, being the first undeterminate mineral manifestation, or the fetus of Bartlett, as you say.

    This first matter is black and vile, outwardly, but inside is white and his hearts is red. Her born all minerals and metals and therefore should have the power to dissolve them and revive them, but only when it is bustling with the celestial fire.

    Only the spirits have action on the bodies; the bodies among themselves, only produce amalgam.

    TV.NE.CEDE.MALIS.
    Quote Originally Posted by theFool
    Do you know where can I find that book?
    Yes, it is the book "Real Alchemy" and can be found at Amazon.

    For me, all those metaphorical interpretations are rather absurd. I put myself closer to a natural scientist rather than an alchemist. So, I wonder; is this "secret fire" a tangible material or philosophic? Can we measure or even better see and touch it? It is said that when a solvent is saturated with that, it will dissolve the metals. It is said that this makes the metals alive and this is what we want to capture, with special menstruums, when we force the metals to "open" and leave behind their dead bodies. It is the fifth Element, the Quintessence, which is hidden inside every living mineral, nurtures it and forces it to ascend (or volatilize), in order to return to the Celestial Fire. I can't help it but also draw an analogy between this and the kundalini force, which according to eastern texts, is responsible for the evolution of man. What a riddle! I hope we can list here whatever references we find for this matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    This spiritual fire is invisible, so we must find a substance that be able to catch it. That`s what alchemy is: the corporization of the spirit!!! Without spirit there is no alchemy but chemistry. Only the spirit can modify the matter,
    philosophically speaking, and make it evolve. It came from heaven to earth and ascends from earth to heaven. It has no form but animates everything. ¿What more can I say? Do not worry about the spiritual fire, is useless in itself, but of identifying the terrestrial substance to catch it.
    Embodied this spirit in the minerals, is the secret sulfur , according to Fulcanelli...
    Quote Originally Posted by horticult
    Hi pierre, thanx for your posts about that primary substance; its nicely compatible with alchemical writings. Would you please tell us, if this substance could be found all year round or only sometimes and somewhere? And is then black??
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Hi Horticult, yes; the first sustance is the spiritus mundi, (the secret fire) but the first matter in which materializes, is black, and it can be found all year in all countries and throughout the ages ... This metalic seed is a substance so tender and subtle, that if it were not protected by a vile subject, that is despised by all, would die at the slightest contact with the sun and the heat. So this seed needs moisture and darkness to grow, so do not you will find it to sunlight.
    Do not be afraid to sink your hands into the debris putrfacted of nature for most disgusting as it may seem.
    In that appear empty and inert matter is the biggest reward, forgotten by everyone.

    Best regards.
    Quote Originally Posted by horticult
    Big thanx Pierre for your quick Re. Could you give some good advice or more indicia how to find that vile subject? / Please no quote from alch. writings, personal one./
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    What more can I say?

    Look no minerals or metals because they are already trained and conditioned to their kingdoms. Forget about them.

    Continues to nature in its development for the mineral and evolicion in the mines. Be simple in your reasoning from the beginning...; ¿As creates metals nature?

    Dark matter is only the skin of the seed, which serves as its protection.

    Do you like agriculture? ¿Do You like gardening? well...

    Here, and in the previous post I have clearly said what you need to know; say more would say the name of his matter..., think about it, and you`ll know it...
    Quote Originally Posted by horticult
    Well, I do some gardening and agriculture although I do not like it much. Yesterday I checked again all places in Fulcanelli where him writes about that black subject. After years I still do not know WHAT it is. Maybe you can say what was your last impuls which lead you to discovery.
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Fulcanelli is one of two authors who appoints the matter such as we know it ...; in his books talk a lot about this matter, especially when spoke about the lamb and the oak; but specifically in the part where spoke about the condensation of the universal spirit on a fleece, or something like that.
    You must link: lamb-fleece-oak, and discover what they have in common these three things.

    Of those connections, then there was light in my mind ...

    It is not easy, I know. But we must strive to open this door, like so many others ...
    Quote Originally Posted by theFool
    Composted dung is used to boost plant growth. One could say that the nurturing secret fire could be responsile for that growth. But our science has found that nitrate salts alone, even if composed artificially, can do the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by horticult
    Yeahh, I almost hate this oak parable. Maybe Flamel started with it. Pernety says that the oak is the furnace.

    "condensation of the ?universal spirit? on a fleece" this is also mentioned in bible. (Jdg 6:38 ) .

    Is there any difference between the lamb and the ram?
    Would you mention the second author?

    Btw, the real fleece was used, just throw it in a creek, and pull it out with golden particles. /I think maybe catched by lanolin./
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Fool: the universal spirit is responsible for life in all realms of nature and is embodied in all substances, including nitrates. ¿What is the key, then? Get that spirit in the purest form possible; not specified to any kingdom, yet. When more pure is obtained the spirit, more philosophical the alchemical path. In other words, less cumbersome and chemistry.

    And any artificial substance, is dead.

    horticult: I think lamb and the ram does not mean the same thing; The ram is the symbol of a substance X in the alchemical process, which leads the harmony between two extremes, such as water and fire. And the lamb states the subject in which the universal spirit is concentrated. Maybe someone does not agree with my thinking and can offer a fuller explanation.


    "condensation of the ?universal spirit? on a fleece" this is also mentioned in bible. (Jdg 6:38 )
    .

    That part of the Bible mark the ratio between the lamb and the universal spirit, but IMO, just means substances by analogy. ¿What do you think?

    Hortucult, please, hate not part of the oak, that's when he speaks most clearly ...

    Would you mention the second author?

    Mmmm..., I guess not...

    Btw, the real fleece was used, just throw it in a creek, and pull it out with golden particles. /I think maybe catched by lanolin./

    Please, do not miss prospect, Focus on alchemy.
    Quote Originally Posted by horticult
    I wanted only to check my own statement and wow!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanolin
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    No; Lanolin is not the subject I want to display. The secret substance does not necessarily come from the wool; it`s just an analogy by way of association. As I said, the lamb, the ram and the oak are associated through the Kabala and "The language of the birds".

    ¿What relationship is there between the lanolin and oak...?

    Remember that even discard the rocks and metals as producers of the secret matter, not because it ceases to be of mineral origin...; which is to say much in few words.

    The metals and minerals come from the same root: from this subtle and tender secret magnet...

    The universal spirit is embodied by attraction in this magnet and it forms the sulfur secret. Then, for reasons of fate, this substance is evolving into the realm of metals, so that could be directed toward the plant kingdom.

    I do not think the lanolin acts as philosophical magnet.
    Quote Originally Posted by BeautifulEvil
    As I said, the lamb, the ram and the oak are associated through the Kabala and "The language of the birds".
    Pierre, are you familiar with the "Language of the Birds?" That would explain a lot!
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    I am not fully knowledgeable about the lenguage of the birds, but I endeavor to learn more and more. Many things can be said without giving to understand that are saying. It is not easy to find the relationship between the meaning and content of the words of the secret language.

    Without insight into the principles of the relationship between the secret art, mythology, substances and metaphors, it is impossible to break the bargain that covers the meaning of words. It`s the study of a lifetime...

    It is not sufficient to consider phonetics of the word studied, but the relationship between the reactions of the materials with each other, and the correspondence they have with the mythological characters they represent.

    Etc...
    Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi
    Greetings Pierre,
    Is it necessary to know french to comprehend Fulcanelli's clues?

    Oak - chene
    Fleece - toison, flocon
    lamb - agneau

    agneau sounds/looks like fire-water - shamayim.

    Latin:
    lamb - agnus
    oak - quercus
    fleece - vellus

    Greek:
    lamb - agnos
    oak - drus
    fleece - malli

    malli is interesting because it is like apple which is like gall, oak gall - galle du chene

    Is this useful at all or unnecessary?
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Hi, Salomon Levi; Know the author's original language is important, but Fulcanelli used very much Greek and Latin.

    The translation of the words that you show us, refers to what igneous. That is fine. Agnus-Agni-Agnos= a matter of fire, or relating to fire. (Oops..., I think I've already said too much.)
    Quote Originally Posted by horticult
    I am not saying that lanolin is for alch. work; by the old creek-fleece method I want to show a "strange" analogy between worlds.
    Quote Originally Posted by BeautifulEvil
    Translations for lamb:
    Latin: agnus
    Greek: agnos
    French: agneau
    Italian: agnello
    Old Church Slavonic: агнѧ (agnę), агньць (agnĭcĭ)
    Croatian: janje
    Slovene: jagnje
    Polish: jagnię
    ---------------------

    Latin ignis:
    From Proto-Indo-European *h₁ngʷni-. Cognate with Sanskrit अग्नि (agní), Hittite (a-ak-ni-iš), Old Church Slavonic огнь (ognĭ), Old Prussian ugnis.

    1. fire
    ---------------------

    Italian igneo:
    igneo m (f ignea, m plural ignei, f plural ignee)

    1. flaming, fervid
    2. igneous
    ---------------------

    Sanskrit aअग्नि (Agní):
    1. fire, sacrificial fire (of three kinds, गार्हपत्य (gārhapatya), आहवनीय (āhavanīya), and दक्षिण (dakṣiṇa))
    2. the number three
    3. the fire of the stomach, digestive faculty, gastric fluid
    4. bile
    5. gold
    6. name of various plants; Semicarpus anacardium, Plumbago zeylanica and Rosea, Citrus acida
    7. mystical substitute for the letter r
    8. in the कातन्त्र (kātantra) grammar, name of noun-stems ending in i and u

    Also a proper noun (God of Fire).
    ---------------------

    English fire:
    From Middle English fier < Old English fyr < Proto-Germanic *fuir < Proto-Indo-European *perjos, *paewr- (“‘fire’”) This was an inanimate noun, whose animate counterpart was Proto-Indo-European *perjos, *egni-. Akin to Dutch vuur, German Feuer, Ancient Greek πῦρ (pur).
    I can draw a few word associations from this. We have these: fur (as in a fleece, animal fur), purr (as in a cat), fer (French meaning iron - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fer#French), pyre. I know there are many others, but I only wanted to name a few.
    Quote Originally Posted by phliosehea
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Agnus-Agni-Agnos= a matter of fire, or relating to fire. (Oops..., I think I've already said too much.)
    I wouldn't worry (concerning the lamb and saying too much) since Fulcanelli elaborated on this notion by tying the prefix of Jesus (i.e. the lamb) to the Hebrew "Jes" or more aptly (אש - "AiSh") which means fire, sun, god, deity among other things. So naturally the Paschal lamb must be thoroughly burnt as per the guidelines of Exodus. Perhaps it is our שמים Shamayim we seek...?

    Pierre, why is it you believe the first matter is black...? I only ask because Philalethes would say that the matter "progresses" to a blackened state...which would mean it began as something "not black". I know others (like Trevisan) mislead some and suggest that the first vesture the king takes off is black...but he says that this only happens after a certain amount of time (per his instructions).
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    The first matter, crude and vile, is black, outwardly; and to the extent that we are purifying, it becomes more and more white. Then, completely pure, it is our magnet, shiny and bright. its appearance reminds us of a kind of foliated ground. In the process of purification through various colors. The green is the most notorious, before the white.

    I only ask because Philalethes would say that the matter "progresses" to a blackened state...which would mean it began as something "not black"

    Philalethes when speaking of the blackness, as a first matter, relates to the substance hermaphrodite: sulfur and mercury, ready to suffer the first putrefaction in the second operation. ¿Am I correct?

    I know others (like Trevisan) mislead some and suggest that the first vesture the king takes off is black...but he says that this only happens after a certain amount of time (per his instructions).

    This means the purification of the king or sulfur, where the king was stripped of his mantle or impurities, to enter in the source.

    We must be alert to the classic authors, as disguise and blend the order of operations to create confusion in the minds of the student.

    Philalethes worked in the amalgam path, with the antimony as a subject.
    Quote Originally Posted by Illen A. Cluf
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    You must link: lamb-fleece-oak, and discover what they have in common these three things....
    Pierre,

    For clarification, did you mean "lamb-fleece-oak" or "ram-fleece-oak"? I believe Fulcanelli only refers to "lamb" twice in Dwellings. However, he continually associates "ram" with "fleece", and mentions both often.
    Last edited by Aleilius; 01-06-2009 at 10:49 PM.

  2. #2
    We must be alert to the classic authors, as disguise and blend the order of operations to create confusion in the minds of the student.
    I think more confusion is the last thing we need. The art is already an enigma, and such confusion would only prove to make the task even more difficult. I believe we should try to clarify the works of our alchemical forefathers as much as possible, and by any means necessary. In my opinion, a step towards this a step towards the realization of the end goal.

    There is an appointed time in which all mysteries shall be revealed. Until this time comes I hope we can all help each other out, and hopefully remove as much confusion as possible.

    Excuse me, I know I'm veering off course here so please forgive me. Let's get back to the Secret Fire discussion!
    Quote Originally Posted by deviadah
    Quote Originally Posted by BeautifulEvil
    I think more confusion is the last thing we need. The art is already an enigma, and such confusion would only prove to make the task even more difficult. I believe we should try to clarify the works of our alchemical forefathers as much as possible, and by any means necessary.
    Without the risk of getting way off topic I must say I strongly concur. We must also remember that when we try to clarify we also learn immensly at the same time. To be simple is difficult...
    Quote Originally Posted by Illen A. Cluf
    Quote Originally Posted by BeautifulEvil
    I think more confusion is the last thing we need. The art is already an enigma, and such confusion would only prove to make the task even more difficult. I believe we should try to clarify the works of our alchemical forefathers as much as possible, and by any means necessary. In my opinion, a step towards this a step towards the realization of the end goal.
    I always found it strange, that in order to understand alchemy, one must first be be well versed in Greek mythology, foreign language puns, and have a knowledge of the "bird language", which in turn is often explained in foreign language books. Even Greek mythology has no consistency as there are many versions of the myths, depending on which of numerous sources one studies, and also numerous ways one can interpret the same myths. There are no standards when it comes to myth interpretation.

    This is all great for those who enjoy puzzles and riddles, but what does proficiency in those skills have to do with understanding Nature and Alchemy? There was a time for riddles and puzzles, when knowledge of the process of making the Stone could result in torture or brutal death of those who knew the secrets. I personally feel that today, we should rely less on riddles and substitute that with a gradual understanding of philosophy and Nature, which in turn will help understand the processes behind making the Stone much more clearly and efficiently. I do agree that some discretion is required, and that the ultimate answers should not be held out on a transmuted gold platter for those who have no desire or determination to try to understand Nature and Philosophy first.

    There are some past alchemists who spoke much more plainly, and focused on the processes of Nature and Philosophy in their explanations. Even if one could still not understand how the Stone is made through their writings, at least there was learning involved, rather than skill development in puzzles and riddles.

    Having said that, I'm not at all opposed to the use of riddles and puzzles when it comes to the hermetic art - I just prefer the alternate route to understanding and learning while I study and research. To me, it just seems more productive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizardos
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    The first matter, crude and vile, is black, outwardly; and to the extent that we are purifying, it becomes more and more white. Then, completely pure, it is our magnet, shiny and bright. its appearance reminds us of a kind of foliated ground. In the process of purification through various colors. The green is the most notorious, before the white.

    We must be alert to the classic authors, as disguise and blend the order of operations to create confusion in the minds of the student.

    Philalethes worked in the amalgam path, with the antimony as a subject.
    No offense, but I find that you add a similar amount of confusion to the subject while you blame the classic authors. You may not speak the language of the birds very well, but to my perception lots of bird feathers are being ruffled for no reason. To speak of fire is not such a grand secret. It is not without reason that the word 'lamb' and 'lamp' are so similar and even the bible states that it is the light there of. As a matter of fact the reference of 'lamb' to 'agnus' and thus to 'ignus' can simply be found in books. Furthermore even the name Fulcanelli is a direct reference to Vulcan, god of fire, so truly it is not such a grand conception. I believe that the works of classic authors such Philalethes can speak for themselves and do not need to be chained to a rock like Andromeda in substances and paths, but do as you wish if it does good in your opinion.

    Nevertheless back to the matter at hand...your method. It sounds as if you are going to dig under a green oak for your black matter,dirt, which apparently has to represent potassium carbonate by virtue of references by Fulcanelli to words such as 'lamb', 'oak', 'the Green Lion', 'magnetic agent' and 'rotten'. I will leave it at that and wish you the best with this method.

    Those who find that the chaos in the alchemical jungle becomes too great should listen to the one who never lets them down and upon one can always trust. That is yourself.

    Have a nice day everyone!

    Dizardos
    Quote Originally Posted by phliosehea
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizardos
    Those who find that the chaos in the alchemical jungle becomes too great should listen to the one who never lets them down and upon one can always trust. That is yourself.
    Welcome to the forum Dizardos...I agree with you wholeheartedly regarding the dense forest of alchemy...perhaps this jungle is intimately entwined with these ancient words.
    γνῶθι σεαυτόν
    gnothi seauton
    "Know Thyself"

    Great words of wisdom from Pythagoras, Heraclitus, Socrates...or anyone else that ascribes to that aphorism.
    This is all great for those who enjoy puzzles and riddles, but what does proficiency in those skills have to do with understanding Nature and Alchemy?
    Well...I've read many times that Nature is the open book of Alchemy. In my mind it is truth. And these words, riddles, puns, and puzzles are obviously the closed book. These closed books have helped my understanding of the art on a smaller level, the level of detail, the level of someone who has been there and experienced the work intimately- would know. It is through these riddles and puns that I know why the plumb must be level, and how (in my understanding) when Paracelsus speaks of marcasite I know not to bother with the mineral. Because when I see marcasite I see the sea...and its waters are not calmed for some time.
    Quote Originally Posted by theFool
    It is nice to speak with metaphors and riddles because they trigger imagination and help you get a feeling of the teachings on a heart level, not only with mind. But the great school is practical work itself. There, your self will teach you exactly the lesson you need to know.

    Edit: I transported the rest of the message here: http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=357
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Hi everyone.
    I know it's cumbersome and tedious to analyze the mythology and parables in connection with alchemy. But it is the only way forward. Without this form of teaching is not alchemy; As our forefathers always said and warned, this science was not for anyone, but for the initiated; that is, scholars who by their effort, managed to knowledge. You knew this from the beginning, my dear friends...; not be mad at me ...

    When teachers tell us clearly, they lie with impunity, but that's the law. And you knew it, too. From the moment that the authors used riddles to teach, we are condemned to play your own game or fooled irreparably.

    Anyone who has deciphered the riddle for the systematic study for years, is going to give away the knowledge, believe me.

    Alchemy is a science very lonely and staff ...

    phliosehea wrote:
    This is all great for those who enjoy puzzles and riddles, but what does proficiency in those skills have to do with understanding Nature and Alchemy?

    And I say this humbly,: No..., it is for all who wish to learn alchemy, because there is no other way ...

    None of the contemporary authors who openly tried to teach alchemy, was able to get someone to produce the stone. The alchemy was not formerly, only the formula to transform metals into gold, was an integral and comprehensive science. The evolution and development of the being on its own merits.

    Dizardos wrote:
    I believe that the works of classic authors such Philalethes can speak for themselves and do not need to be chained to a rock like Andromeda in substances and paths

    Philalethes has been denounced by several alchemycal authors as one of the most deceptive philosophers, under the lure of sincerity.

    Illen A. Cluf wrote:
    For clarification, did you mean "lamb-fleece-oak" or "ram-fleece-oak"? I believe Fulcanelli only refers to "lamb" twice in Dwellings. However, he continually associates "ram" with "fleece", and mentions both often.


    Yes, the relationship is lamb / freece / oak... In the first book "Le mystére des Cathedrales" there are many clues about it.

    And finally, I always remember a warning that many people have done to me over the years: do not believe anything unless you've checked for yourself.

    Sad but true...

    PS: Was not my intention to create controversy. Sorry if that is what happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizardos
    While all paths lead to Rome, only one needs to be followed to get there. I do agree that all the symbolism and mythology can be very useful and it is definitely not one of the most covert methods employed to explain the Opus Magnum. The correspondences can be truly ingenious. Gematria is for example so much more difficult to decipher.

    I wonder whether you employed your own slogan of "Do not believe anything unless you've checked for yourself" in relation to the works of Philalethes as well instead of only going on the words of those authors. It happens often that Philosophers start out very cryptic in their first works and realize that nobody understood their meaning and therefore the works following the first become more lucid (since they did not intend that nobody would understand, but only the best). Basilius Valentinus and Paracelsus have works too that are so cryptic that only adepts can make out their meaning (with effort) and there are many others besides them that have similar 'problems'. History shows that it happened often that those who found lucid alchemical works of great value have hidden this knowledge from the world to their own advantage. From the Hebrew letter Pe the word Power is derived and so too one of your riddles.

    Nevertheless I do not agree with the opinion that it has to be difficult and veiled in order for new students to learn. It is a conscious choice made by adepts that it is so. It can indeed work out better for the world since it makes sure that every alchemist acquires the preferred characteristics along the way and it shapes their personality, although I am not knowledgeable enough to comment about that properly. It will be hard to know what would happen to the world if the Art would be taught more openly up to a certain extent.

    I find it rather strange that someone who employs similar methods up to a certain extent holds such different opinions.

    Have a nice day everyone!

    Dizardos
    Quote Originally Posted by Illen A. Cluf
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Hi everyone.
    I know it's cumbersome and tedious to analyze the mythology and parables in connection with alchemy. But it is the only way forward. Without this form of teaching is not alchemy; As our forefathers always said and warned, this science was not for anyone, but for the initiated; that is, scholars who by their effort, managed to knowledge. You knew this from the beginning, my dear friends...; not be mad at me ...
    Hello Pierre,

    I don't think that any of the comments were directed towards you personally, at least that was not my intent. I was expressing my frustration at the old Alchemists in general and their use of Greek mythology, puns and riddles to explain their work, much like an adult would do with young children. But, as you have remarked, we are stuck with it, and we must find a way to depher what they meant so that we can subsequently explain it in our own terms.

    I realize that you were attempting to decipher one set of symbols associated with the initial and prepared matter. The oak in general represents the common name of the initial subject as found in the mine, but more specifically can refer to name of the raw mercurial matter when its galls are considered, or to the prepared substance when its kirmis (kermes) is considered. The lamb represents the symbol of the cross and is an emblem of the purification of the arsenical principle. "Dwellings" includes a much more interesting explanation for the meaning of the "X" which I'm sure you are familiar with. As for the fleece, it represents the matter prepared for the work, as wel as the final result. Thus it is the matter in its different aspects as it goes through the purificaiton, fixation and maturity stages.

    Ilen
    Quote Originally Posted by BeautifulEvil
    I think we're all having a very good discussion here. Some of these things need to be said. Pierre, please keep in mind we are speaking in general, and we're only trying to have a friendly discussion. I know I can't speak for myself when I say I appreciate you sharing your words with us.

    "Dwellings" includes a much more interesting explanation for the meaning of the "X" which I'm sure you are familiar with.
    I REALLY need to buy a copy of Dwellings. I can't believe I've waited so long to read it.

    Nevertheless back to the matter at hand...your method. It sounds as if you are going to dig under a green oak for your black matter,dirt, which apparently has to represent potassium carbonate by virtue of references by Fulcanelli to words such as 'lamb', 'oak', 'the Green Lion', 'magnetic agent' and 'rotten'. I will leave it at that and wish you the best with this method.
    This was my conclusion too. It reminds me of the work of Barbault and his book "Gold of a Thousand Mornings."
    Quote Originally Posted by phliosehea
    pierre: Philalethes has been denounced by several alchemical authors as one of the most deceptive philosophers, under the lure of sincerity.
    I know in what reference you are quoting this...and even though Fulcanelli inferred certain deceptive notions regarding Philalethes he goes on at length to quote, compare, and reference his (Philalethes) works in many passages (i.e. "eagles to lions" etc...) that in my opinion- to shun his works would be unwise...otherwise why would he bother to quote his writings throughout? The same can be said about Paracelsus denouncing Geber and Magnus: Paracelsus: The Aurora of the Philosophers: But this is not done in the way pointed out by such evil sophists as Geber in "The Sum of Perfection", Albertus Magnus, Aristotle the chemist in "The Book of the Perfect Magistery", Rhasis and Polydorus; for those writers, however many they be, are either themselves in error, or else they write falsely out of sheer envy, and put forth receipts whilst not ignorant of the truth." and "Taken altogether, these are merely deceitful dreams. Avoid also the particular sophistry of Geber; for example, his sevenfold sublimations or mortifications, and also the revivifications of Mercury" I suppose what I am getting at is; I would look deeply at who they denounce in addition to who they praise.

    Dizardos: It can indeed work out better for the world since it makes sure that every alchemist acquires the preferred characteristics along the way and it shapes their personality, although I am not knowledgeable enough to comment about that properly. It will be hard to know what would happen to the world if the Art would be taught more openly up to a certain extent.
    That first sentence resounds very true...reminds me of something I read in one of Bacstroms works "The L.P. (Lapis Philosophorum) either finds or makes a good man". I've definitely been shaped/reshaped along the way, and still am- and of course have much more in front of me to be done... I suspect that the closed books will be open soon, but for some reason that idea is very terrifying to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by phliosehea
    Quote Originally Posted by BeautifulEvil
    I REALLY need to buy a copy of Dwellings. I can't believe I've waited so long to read it.
    Yes...put it on your Christmas list.
    Quote Originally Posted by horticult
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizardos
    Nevertheless back to the matter at hand...your method. It sounds as if you are going to dig under a green oak for your black matter,dirt, which apparently has to represent potassium carbonate by virtue of references by Fulcanelli to words such as 'lamb', 'oak', 'the Green Lion', 'magnetic agent' and 'rotten'. I will leave it at that and wish you the best with this method.
    I can not comprehend, how the potassium carbonate should be black or vile? Its a useful magnet ;-) , but what about that description?
    Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi

    I was curious about potassium carbonate too.
    Pierre said he uses no qumic (chemic) salts and not to look in the mineral kingdom.
    Does that exclude this material or is it an exception as it comes from plants?

    Early on he said 'no' to mercury and sulphur, but not to salt, and the old texts all agree that
    the condensation of light/fire through air and water into earth manifests as salt, the salt of nature.

    But yes, it's hard to think of anything I find vile or despise?

    The Fulcanelli group said the matter was similar to in appearance, but not, Nostoc.
    And one of them said we say the name of it every day, but moreso during one half of the year...
    I forget the months he said. I'll try to find it. Does anyone else know what I'm referring to?
    Then does "we" refer to french speaking people only or...?

    In a thread below titled "pics unio sulphur et sal de vinum", I posted a nice
    pic of the green stage which reminded me of Ripley's toad because I obtained it
    by "gorging it on grapes".
    I hadn't considered potassium carbonate to be the first matter though.
    I was just combining the three principle of the vine.
    One path uses the grapevine alone to produce the stone as it provides the three principles
    of our art.
    Quote Originally Posted by Etherize
    I believe I understand what you are saying Pierre, I guess I was ready to hear it. I have read the clues a thousand times but it never really struck me until NOW. I now understand why all the riddles and puzzles. When you do understand what is being talked about, if you were told straight out what it was you would dismiss the information as foolish. But having to research and puzzle over the answer makes you treasure it.

    Thanks again Pierre,

    Etherize
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Etherize, Thank you for you understanding. I could not have said this better than you.

    Pierre.
    Quote Originally Posted by phliosehea
    Pierre:
    None of the contemporary authors who openly tried to teach alchemy, was able to get someone to produce the stone
    So Pierre, do you believe you understand the method to produce the stone? Out of curiousity... how long do you think it will take you to produce it when you begin?
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    phliosehea:

    what I tried to say is that even though many contemporary writers openly taught as making the Philosopher's Stone, none was able to obtain it. And this is a fact, until someone proves otherwise.

    And if someone has obtained the stone, well..., ¿Do you know him?

    I do not have the stone; that`s obvious, ¿don`t you think? I just describe my work, in this forum, and other people can agree with it or not.

    But I am fully convinced that the methods now being used to get the stone, are inadequate and are on false paths. ¿Why? Because our forefathers prohibited use acids or fire vulgar to work their substances. Does the nature uses glass or flames to perform their metalic productions?

    Until then..., there will be no philosopher's stone, my mistrusted friend; only pseudo alchemy.

    That`s what I really Think...
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizardos
    Quote Originally Posted by horticult
    I can not comprehend, how the potassium carbonate should be black or vile? Its a useful magnet ;-) , but what about that description?
    I will explain it by means of quotes from Pierre:

    "This spiritual fire is invisible, so we must find a substance that be able to catch it."

    "Do not worry about the spiritual fire, is useless in itself, but of identifying the terrestrial substance to catch it. "

    "Fulcanelli is one of two authors who appoints the matter such as we know it ...; in his books talk a lot about this matter, especially when spoke about the lamb and the oak; but specifically in the part where spoke about the condensation of the universal spirit on a fleece, or something like that.
    You must link: lamb-fleece-oak, and discover what they have in common these three things."

    "Do not be afraid to sink your hands into the debris putrfacted of nature for most disgusting as it may seem.
    In that appear empty and inert matter is the biggest reward, forgotten by everyone."

    It appears only black when impure, but potassium carbonate is indeed white when completely purified. Some other interesting names of potassium carbonate are: pearl ash, potash, salt of tartar and salt of wormwood.

    It is merely my opinion that this is what Pierre referred to, although it does not have my preference.
    Last edited by Aleilius; 01-06-2009 at 11:08 PM.

  3. #3
    Pierre mentioned we should follow the evolutionary path in the mines. How does potassium carbonate figure into this?

    For the sake of discussion, let's say it is potassium carbonate. What do we do with it?

    But I am fully convinced that the methods now being used to get the stone, are inadequate and are on false paths. ¿Why? Because our forefathers prohibited use acids or fire vulgar to work their substances. Does the nature uses glass or flames to perform their metalic productions?
    False paths you say? How can we say which paths are true and which are false? It seems like we would need experimental confirmation to prove such things. I don't believe merely discussing a path, and relating it to the words of the old alchemists, is a 100% way to confirm or deny something. Nature does not use glass or flames, but that's because glass/flasks are man's inventions (nature has earth to do her work). However, nature does use heat (which is merely a less intense form of our fire principle). Can we help nature, and speed up her work, through flasks and fire? I believe so, but you may call me a sophist if you like.

    I believe we should give equal consideration for each "method" and "path" since none of us have the stone. The cryptic nature of our posts should not be a determining factor in who's right and who's wrong. Just because a post is cryptic, or a poster can't (doesn't) say much, doesn't always mean their method is the true method. Likewise, it doesn't always mean their method is the only method.

    Nature has an infinite way of acting on matter, and produces an infinite number of variations. Likewise, we should not look for the stone in one single substance or path, but a number of substances and paths. Nature may not use fire or flasks to perform her work, but this does not mean we shouldn't be able to use such things in our work. Nature may produce the substance, but we have to act on it.

    Maybe I'm going in circles here.
    Quote Originally Posted by phliosehea
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    phliosehea:
    And if someone has obtained the stone, well..., ¿Do you know him?
    No I do not know anyone who has, but I do believe I understand the method.

    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    I do not have the stone; that`s obvious, ¿don`t you think? I just describe my work, in this forum, and other people can agree with it or not.
    Not really, nothings obvious over the internet...or for that matter, in person either... especially if it concerns alchemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    But I am fully convinced that the methods now being used to get the stone, are inadequate and are on false paths. ¿Why? Because our forefathers prohibited use acids or fire vulgar to work their substances. Does the nature uses glass or flames to perform their metalic productions?
    Oh I wholly agree...I have a bit of a history of disagreeing with the bulk of what is construed as "alchemy".

    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Until then..., there will be no philosopher's stone, my mistrusted friend; only pseudo alchemy.
    That`s what I really Think...
    Yes there is much pseudo alchemy, but the stone has never left us...and can always be had at hand- with a little time, patients, and determination.
    Quote Originally Posted by Illen A. Cluf
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    But I am fully convinced that the methods now being used to get the stone, are inadequate and are on false paths. ¿Why? Because our forefathers prohibited use acids or fire vulgar to work their substances. Does the nature uses glass or flames to perform their metalic productions?
    Not all of them prohibited the use of vulgar fire. For example, Fulcanelli repeatedly states that the Secret Fire is "excited" by the action of the exterior fire. So, while the Secret Fire is not an actual fire, it requires the heat of the vulgar fire in order to begin its action.

    In Le Mystere des Cathedrales, he even identifies, on Pages 125-6, what temperature this exterior fire should be raised to (up to approximately 300 degrees C).

    Illen
    Quote Originally Posted by sealedflask
    I've never read anything from Paracelsus other than this on the secret fire-

    "... in another way operates the invisible fire by which we understand the rays of the sun which also is shewn by a mirror or steel plate or crystal and displays its operation and effect concerning which fire the ancients wrote scarcely anything By this fire indeed the three principles in any corporeal substance can be separated on a table Of so wonderful a virtue is this fire that by means of it metals are liquefied and all fat and fluxible things all combustible things indeed can be reduced to carbon and ashes on a table and without fire"
    Quote Originally Posted by deviadah
    Quote Originally Posted by sealedflask
    I've never read anything from Paracelsus...
    You simply must read stuff by Paracelsus if you can locate it... highly recommended!

    There are some stuff available online, just google it!
    Last edited by Aleilius; 01-06-2009 at 11:21 PM.

  4. #4
    I think sealedflask was speaking in context of the Secret Fire, and that Paracelsus only mentioned it once in his writings.
    Quote Originally Posted by deviadah
    Ah, yes I see now... I missed that!

    Keep in mind I wrote my post very early in the morning... if that is a worthy excuse!
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    BeautifulEvil Wrote:

    False paths you say? How can we say which paths are true and which are false?

    I trust very much in the warnings of the old alchemists. One is that if the fire for more subtle it is, touches the metal seeds, they die. I am convinced of this, really! The old alchemists were more sincere and less envious in his writings that modern authors which to hide the generosity of the firsts, distorted everything.
    The proof of this is the honest criticism of some authors, on the envious: "I wish they had never written a single word about alchemy, because with their words, rather than help, misinform". Have you heard phrases like this before, right?

    Here is another example of what I consider a true way: The subject is one and it is taken out everything you need. ¡Beautiful words!

    Another exemple: The vulgar alchemists work with a lot of effort and great expense; with all kinds of kilns and fireworks and a thousand different subjects. In short: if God has prepared everything from scratch, the alchemists vulgar, from all make nothing .

    I will talk of the alchemists vulgar: indeed, they no longer away from the true path, in order to seduce and give opportunity for you to edhieras their false views ...

    The text is: "Instruction of one father to his son about the solar tree"

    And believe me, BE; I feel deeply in my heart that in simple words such as these, are more true than any alchemical formula that any modern author can offer ... But, of course, that´s just my believe...

    phliosehea wrote:

    No I do not know anyone who has, but I do believe I understand the method.

    Please, my brother, humbly ask you, can you teach me the method, then?

    Illen wrote;

    In Le Mystere des Cathedrales, he even identifies, on Pages 125-6, what temperature this exterior fire should be raised to (up to approximately 300 degrees C).

    Yes, I am agree, but (always there´s a but, ¿isn`t?) Fulcanelli warned about the degrees of fire that everything that was said was not true. Remember that? I tell you this, instead: The four degrees of fire, have nothing in common with the intensity of the flames.

    Not all of them prohibited the use of vulgar fire. For example, Fulcanelli repeatedly states that the Secret Fire is "excited" by the action of the exterior fire

    Exterior fire; not necessarily common fire...
    Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi
    I'm just realising, in a more concrete way, how some of the authors who spoke of "one thing"
    were speaking of the grapevine which is one thing from which can be extracted three things:
    salt of tartar, alcohol and vinegar.

    But I don't see this as the first matter that Pierre is speaking of.
    Obviously, metals don't evolve from grapevines.

    There's a nice work on the vine towards the end of Junius' book on Plant Alchemy,
    for anyone interested.
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Hi Solomon Levi;

    Maybe you can get a book called super textum hermetis, whose author is Ortolan, and talks about the quintessence. The author describes the first matter very veiled, but it is very plausible that it is the wine..

    "The author makes it clear that this first matter it does not have to be a mineral, because the alchemists called lapidem nostrum benedictum any natural substance from which it can separate its essential elements through alchemical operations". (José Luis Guerrero)

    I do not know, maybe this book you can be useful for your research.
    Quote Originally Posted by Illen A. Cluf
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Exterior fire; not necessarily common fire...
    That's an interesting thought, Pierre - that the exterior fire is also not a real fire. I never thought about it from that perspective, and will have to re-read the relevant sections from that perspective.

    Illen
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    In many cases, the exterior fire is a substance that is added and it causes reactions in the compound. There are four fires throughout the work, according to Fulcanelli, and all came successively from the subject at work. Four kinds of different salts, depending on the materials to work.
    Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Hi Solomon Levi;

    Maybe you can get a book called super textum hermetis, whose author is Ortolan, and talks about the quintessence. The author describes the first matter very veiled, but it is very plausible that it is the wine..

    "The author makes it clear that this first matter it does not have to be a mineral, because the alchemists called lapidem nostrum benedictum any natural substance from which it can separate its essential elements through alchemical operations". (José Luis Guerrero)

    I do not know, maybe this book you can be useful for your research.

    Thank you.
    Ortolan? Probably Hortulanus?
    I'll look at both.

    [off-topic removed]
    Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi
    NDCent,
    Thanks for all you've shared on alchemy.

    Feel better?
    Quote Originally Posted by BeautifulEvil
    What all you people should be talking about by now, is how much the stone has changed your life, and how THANKFUL you are to me, ***, for even writing these books and websites that show you how to make the REAL stone. But I guess some of you just can't stand the thought of me being right this whole time.
    What chance of fate! How lovely it is to have *** grace us with his amazing knowledge and wits.

    I could easily delete your post, but that wouldn't be very democratic of me would it? There is indeed substance in your post. All students of the art should take heed of your post. It should serve as an prime example of what NOT to do. All true alchemists follow a strict set of ethics and guidelines, but these are not to be found in your posts.

    Our board is a board of REAL alchemists. You've performed a lot of experiments, but that does not make you an alchemist. Aye, it makes you an archemist - a puffer. I believe you should take a good look in the mirror - you've become the thing you hate the most.

    And for those of you who think you know better than me, babble on...
    Sir, you are the only one I see here babbling on like a madman.
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    The name is Ortolan of paris; there is no connection with Hortulanus at all
    Quote Originally Posted by deviadah
    Quote Originally Posted by 100%TRUTH
    And for those of you who think you know better than me, babble on...
    “Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.” - Albert Einstein
    “To become truly great, one has to stand with people, not above them.” - Charles de Montesquieu
    If you want to partake in discussion please refrain from Paradigm Bashing which is, to quote m1thr0s, exactly what it sounds like - if you resort to telling others that their beliefs or ideas are idiotic or inferior simply because they do not conform to you own!

    All posts henceforth that are not relevant to this thread shall be deleted by a moderator!
    Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    The name is Ortolan of paris; there is no connection with Hortulanus at all
    Ok. That's a new one.
    I'll check it out.
    Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi
    Okay. Here's that clue from the Fulcanelli group I spoke of.
    This is a part of a letter from Milosz to Dom Bernard Geradon.
    Milosz is Oscar Vladislas de Lubicz Milosz.
    He gave Rene Schwaller his last name - de Lubicz.
    And Schwaller appears to be the true source behind the Fulcanelli material.

    "It is interesting to follow people of the Middle ages on their
    pilgrimages to Saint-Jacques de Compostelle and other magical
    sites because behind the deliberate and necessary obscurity of
    their allegorical relations are hidden truths, the abrupt revealing of
    which would risk dangerously demoralising the two opposing camps
    of the faithful and the materialists. In the most natural way, these truths
    derive from the immediate knowledge of a certain substance that has
    been described in almost identical terms by all the ancient chemists,
    a substance, moreover, whose common and sacred names each of us
    utters every day, especially between the fall and spring equinoxes.
    ...Let us add, however, before leaving this subject that the material in
    question resembles only very distantly the mysterious "nostoc"."

    Pierre - does this makes sense to you?
    I assume the word would be a french word.
    Would it be something we say in english everyday too?
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Mr. ********, I was going to answer your message in other words which I do now, but I'm not here to discuss but to learn, so I will explain my idea about what I said in this forum, again, if you do not bother.

    When I told that the chemycal acids are harmful to the alchemical sustances, is an argument based on logic and in the words of the ancient alchemists. Don`t get me wrong; I do not want to contradict your words or your work. Please, I ask you to follow my reasoning: Apart from the fact that the chemical acids are too strong to the subtil and tender spirit contained in the matter is released alive, ¿what difference would such a method with the chemical vulgar to have? I´m not trying to say you are a puffer, don´t get me wrong, again, please. Without the cooperation of the spirit there is no alchemy, I believe. Why do you think that all true adepts begin their texts in praise of god? ¿Is not to highlight the importance of the spirit on the matter?

    The spirit gives life, not removed, as do the modern acids.

    Then, I ask to you; without the spirit and the soport of nature, ¿alchemy would really remain alchemy?

    Make an effort for giving me an honest and educated answer, please. Surprise me, although it is by this time.

    humbly, Pierre.
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Hi Solomon Levi,

    I do not know, Solomon; out of context, the words that you point out, might be a bit confusing, since the author it could be talking about the dew, the snow or the rain, for example.

    Although I share the idea that the author manages in these few words.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizardos
    Snowstorms are common in winter.

    Pierre, you have come a fair way and I am sure that with enough willpower no door can remain closed for long. Belief, effort and patience should give you what you desire. My hands are shackled, but there is a chance that the shackles will come off in April, although it is certainly no guarantee.

    Have a nice day everyone!
    Quote Originally Posted by kerkring
    Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi
    In the most natural way, these truths
    derive from the immediate knowledge of a certain substance that has
    been described in almost identical terms by all the ancient chemists,
    a substance, moreover, whose common and sacred names each of us
    utters every day, especially between the fall and spring equinoxes.
    ...Let us add, however, before leaving this subject that the material in
    question resembles only very distantly the mysterious "nostoc"."

    Pierre - does this makes sense to you?
    I assume the word would be a french word.
    Would it be something we say in english everyday too?
    According to Jean Dubuis from PON, the secret fire is carried to earth from the sun thru the atmosphere and is concentrated in the dew and in fresh snow which hasn't been contaminated, so it could be that.
    Quote Originally Posted by 100%TRUTH
    I did not come here with any hatred in my heart, so I don't know why some of these members insist on accusing me of hating anyone. I came here to give.

    And why do these people hate me? I can only think jealousy is the cause, because I plainly give you the way to make the stone that is literally easier than baking a cake, heck even easier than making a sandwich, and I provide STEP BY STEP instructions with hundreds of photographs, and they want to call me the puffer? Even if they honestly lack so much common sense they truly believe I would be handing out a step by step process so easy anyone could do it, but it's fake, and so they really believe I'm a puffer, why hate me for it?

    I don't hate Pierre, and he's a total puffer. I don't even dislike Pierre. I actually like him a little, even though he's another one of those guys who doesn't even show his face or give his real name, or provide any photos, and won't explain a step by step format for others to follow and replicate his results.

    He's state all his opinions and beliefs as facts, and only responds to people who praise his name and pretend to bow down to his great and infinite wisdom. It's quite a load of nonsense, and it very much surprises me how kindly he's treated here, especially since such mean spirit scum litter this forum with their presence, driving away any true alchemists.

    And yes, I've made the stone via the Volpierre path, and I've perfect the path to make it faster. Photos from step one to the very end glowing stone will be in the 1st edition of my book, and of course every other process will also be in there, shown from beginning to end. So I have laugh when I see someone claiming acids can't be used in alchemy. YES indeed they can. All that is important is that dew be added to these acids, and when multiplication is done, it's imperative the calx be allowed to absorb dew from the air during the stage of deliquescence.

    See how much give and share? lol

    Anyway, this message will probably be deleted so I may as well stop typing here. I'm just glad to one again see that even if you throw perils before swine, they swine are too foolish to know what treasure even looks like.


    Nick ********
    youtube.com/AlchemistShaman
    Quote Originally Posted by phliosehea
    ***: Anyway, this message will probably be deleted so I may as well stop typing here. I'm just glad to one again see that even if you throw perils before swine, they swine are too foolish to know what treasure even looks like.
    Yes...you couldn't have said it better- Thank you for throwing this peril our way.

    per·il (prl)
    n.
    1.
    a. Imminent danger.
    b. Exposure to the risk of harm or loss.
    2. Something that endangers or involves risk.
    tr.v. per·iled also per·illed, per·il·ing also per·il·ling, per·ils also per·ils
    To expose to danger or the chance of injury; imperil.
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Nick ******** wrote:

    And why do these people hate me?

    Do not you think that the way you treat people, is the answer to how people treat yourself?

    I don't hate Pierre, and he's a total puffer. I don't even dislike Pierre. I actually like him a little, even though he's another one of those guys who doesn't even show his face or give his real name, or provide any photos, and won't explain a step by step format for others to follow and replicate his results.

    He's state all his opinions and beliefs as facts, and only responds to people who praise his name and pretend to bow down to his great and infinite wisdom. It's quite a load of nonsense, and it very much surprises me how kindly he's treated here, especially since such mean spirit scum litter this forum with their presence, driving away any true alchemists.


    .. Wow..., how many things you say here .. , my friend, considering that a friend of yours gave me come to your forum because he felt that I was a real alchemist and I knew things that all you do not. I imagine that person contact me privately with your consent. Do I need to show you the mail in the forum for you accept it as truth?

    But it`s all right, bro... "tables turning and now it`s my turn to cry..."

    I apologize sincerely if someone feels offended by that I do not answered his comment. I really do. Was never my intention. Really I ignored it to any of you in this forum?

    Yes, I didn`t show photos, because that proves nothing. I may be showing anything ... ¿How could you rely on a blurry image from the distance? I apologize to all those who do this; but there should be a factor for confidence that this is positive. The same thing for the tapes. That`s what I think...

    And finally ... ... oh yes, I am a real evil and a dark person and I come up here to confuse the soul of the all innocent and confident alchemists and take them through the wrong way. ¿See...? , you did it again! Do not underestimate people. Think well before you accuse so many people that way. We are all conscious people, not empty heads ... All we feel, think and act in different ways; but that`s all right. ¿Is not it so?

    ¡C`mon, man, please; let us be serious!

    But that`s your problem, nick; not mine. Do what you want to do, but you should respect the people and you shall be respected.. That`s the first law.

    So be happy with your stone and I'll be with my ignorance.

    Up ever.
    Pierre.
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Quote Originally Posted by kerkring

    According to Jean Dubuis from PON, the secret fire is carried to earth from the sun thru the atmosphere and is concentrated in the dew and in fresh snow which hasn't been contaminated, so it could be that.

    Yes, I share this view of the secret fire and the dew as his vehicle.
    Quote Originally Posted by horticult
    Authors and Fulcanelli wrote that substance is vile, black /magnesia/. I have problem to asociate this with dew or snow. Fulcanelli also wrote that "is not necessary" to collect may´s dew; so, could there be something even better than dew, at disposal "everywhere, everytime"?
    Quote Originally Posted by theFool
    All students of the art should take heed of your post. It should serve as an prime example of what NOT to do.
    I observe that the recipies on the "Alchemy Illuminated" website, are backed up, referring their sources to old alchemical books. They don't seem to be completely new ones. There are also many correspondences with Alan Bartlett's book, Real Alchemy. Those recipies should at least be studied critically and unbiased.
    Quote Originally Posted by 100%TRUTH
    Pierre X, wrote:
    Yes, I didn`t show photos, because that proves nothing. I may be showing anything ... ¿How could you rely on a blurry image from the distance?
    Oh come on now Pierre! Photos prove a lot of things! For example, photos of your distillation equipment would prove that you actually are capable of performing distillations if you are going to be claiming you did anything with distillation. And photos of mercury and an iron retort would prove you are actually able to distill mercury, if it is the mercury path you proclaim wisdom in.

    And most importantly, photos of the GLOWING stone are very hard to fake, because only someone who has made the stone would know what it looks like when it glows. So yes, it is indeed proof.
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Oh, please, Mr ********, we ask you one more time, don`t treated us as idiots.

    The pictures can not even show if you are the owner of his own lab..., and this does not mean you do not have one.

    How stupid do you think we can be?
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Quote Originally Posted by horticult
    Authors and Fulcanelli wrote that substance is vile, black /magnesia/. I have problem to asociate this with dew or snow. Fulcanelli also wrote that "is not necessary" to collect may´s dew; so, could there be something even better than dew, at disposal "everywhere, everytime"?

    That is correct. I just only tried to give meaning to the specific words that Solomon Levi showed us.
    Quote Originally Posted by 100%TRUTH
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Oh, please, Mr ********, we ask you one more time, don`t treated us as idiots.
    The pictures can not even show if you are the owner of his own lab..., and this does not mean you do not have one. How stupid do you think we can be?
    Well when you have hundreds of photos published in a book, that would be ILLEGAL if they weren't yours. And you would indeed half to be an idiot to think someone would take hundreds of photos of someone else's lab work.

    Anyone with half a brain can see from my music, my artwork, my website, my videos, and my books, that I'm a genuine person, and taking fake photos of alchemy work would be as dumb as taking fake photos of someone baking a cake...LOl

    You are absolutely ridiculous Pierre.

  5. #5
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    I tried to warn, but it did not work!

    Please refrain from name-calling and bitching. Go elsewhere to do that!

    I will start to ban people now!

    This thread will be locked unless it doesn't return to topic...
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre

    Ok, for my part this dispute ends now.
    Quote Originally Posted by phliosehea
    I've got it!!! The real secret fire is ***...because everywhere he goes he seems to burn a bridge.
    Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi
    So, Pierre. The black substance that you identify as the prima materia -
    is it a word we utter everyday?

    You say it dies in the presence of flame or sunlight - is this death something apparent,
    observable, or just cognitive because it has been removed from its mine.
    Does the dead one look different than a living one?

    If you can answer - thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre
    Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi
    So, Pierre. The black substance that you identify as the prima materia -
    is it a word we utter everyday?
    This is a way of the adepts for saying that it is very common thing. Like all things in alchemy, it literally can be misleading.

    You say it dies in the presence of flame or sunlight - is this death something apparent,
    observable, or just cognitive because it has been removed from its mine.
    Does the dead one look different than a living one?
    The philosophical separation from its mine does not kill the metalic seed metal. The subject vile and black protects the metalic seeds of destructive external forces, such as sunlight. Fulcanelli tells us that is generated in the dark life and that the sun is the destroyer of all seeds in tender growth. Fulcanelli puts the example of how the sun affects a fertilized chicken egg with a chick embryo inside them. ¿Remember that part?

    Let`s remember that this universal seed is a very, very tender substance. Hence its philosophical separation must be very careful so as not to affect him. No fire; no acids; no sunlight...

    I tell you this: the black subject contains within itself another white substance that atracts the spiritus mundi when it is exalted. You take away the black and took the white salt . It is this whiteness, a symbol of purifying the hermetic subject , then you have the magnet purified and ready to concentrate the Universal spirit or Secret Fire, or as you call it.
    Quote Originally Posted by horticult
    I was attacked by an idea: its not that Shunammite from king David this fire? Any cabbalist here able to distillate some practical info from it?
    Quote Originally Posted by SonofSol
    I think its obvious, not just on threads in this forum, but also on other forums, that the reason people are so prone to sarcasm and negative attitudes against mr collete, is due to their egoes being frustrated over his experience/discoveries in the field, people should let their egoes deflate and see that he has managed to shortcut alot of proccesses, and how can people seriously think he is just making it up, who in the world would waste time like that, esp in an underground field such as this, with so little attention ect, we should be happy to have a brother so generous in our midst...

    Peace be on to all the brother and sisters in the mysteries of life...

    New and updated!!!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonofSol
    ...the reason people are so prone to sarcasm and negative attitudes against mr collete.
    Well he got himself to blame a little for this... it is all about respect given and received!

    Now this is off-topic so let's not divert this topic anymore.

    Welcome to the forums, please post an introduction to yourself!
    Quote Originally Posted by SonofSol
    Thank you for welcoming me, and as a last word on this, it is only human*part of the surface reactions) to become angry when one is treated with sarcasm, esp when one is generous...
    Quote Originally Posted by sealedflask
    According to Jean Dubuis from PON, the secret fire is carried to earth from the sun thru the atmosphere and is concentrated in the dew and in fresh snow which hasn't been contaminated, so it could be that.
    The link covers the "Flux Transfer Event" between the Earth and Sun.

    Possibly a connection?
    Quote Originally Posted by SonofSol
    Facinating how everything the ancients said, is being confirmed/re-discovered again...
    Quote Originally Posted by phliosehea
    Quote Originally Posted by horticult
    I was attacked by an idea: its not that Shunammite from king David this fire? Any cabbalist here able to distillate some practical info from it?
    Perhaps if you are able to understand the allegory in such a way that pertains to alchemy - you may see some practical info. A Shunammite, or kind woman, often revives the old man (David, Elisha). It was thought at one time that sleeping with a young virgin could preserve the old man's youth by transferring her heat and moisture to him (Shunamitism). While it is up for debate, this old man is in my mind none other then our mercury.

    New and updated!!!

  7. #7
    It was thought at one time that sleeping with a young virgin could preserve the old man's youth by transferring her heat and moisture to him (Shunamitism). While it is up for debate, this old man is in my mind none other then our mercury.
    Ah, now that's very interesting. Isn't the old man also allegorical of the hermit, and Cronus (Saturn)?

    Human's are intertwined with the secret fire. I believe it's this secret fire that brings cognition to our mind, and also our ability as a species to evolve. We as humans should also increase our reserves of this secret fire, and our ability to absorb it. This should bring about the spontaneous evolution of our mind, body, and soul. Wouldn't the heat and moisture of the young virgin also be considered the secret fire?

    I believe this is what alchemy is all about, but maybe I'm way off with all my conjecturing.

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