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Thread: Political & Cultural Aspects of Diversity in Sexual Orientation & Gender Identity

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    Political & Cultural Aspects of Diversity in Sexual Orientation & Gender Identity

    Mod Note: This is a Spin-Off Thread about Political & Cultural Aspects of Diversity in Sexual Orientation & Gender Identity, continued from HERE.

    Anything related to this topic (but not directly related to Alchemy or Tantra) may be posted here, on this new thread.
    The spin-off started when a video was posted of a song named 'Androgynous' (by Crush Test Dummies), to which I added other related videos and some side comments.
    It was due to those follow-up comments of mine and the reactions they triggered that the YouTube music thread got derailed.
    __________________________________________


    In the days of glam rock, supposedly hetero artists like David Bowie (among others) put on bisexual/androgynous images for publicity, while gay artists had to stay in the closet (i.e. Elton John, and later Michael Stipe and many others) for fear of neanderthalic public opinion. In other words, it was OK for show, but people didn't want to know the truth behind the act. Quite a handful of Hollywood gay megastars are still not out (American puritanism can take all the violence in the movies, but apparently can't deal with same gender romance ). I won't name any names, but they are well known in the industry as well as in gay circles.

    And don't even get me started about all these manufactured boy-bands who sing about girls but are apparently more into each other than into the opposite gender Maybe this is part of the marketing strategy (David Icke has published examples of subliminal homoerotic imagery in marketing), but members of boy-bands who were actually gay had to stay closeted to put up a 'straight' appearance for the mostly teenage female fan base (Stephen Gately of Boyzone, Lance Bass of N'Sync, Mark Feehily of Westlife, etc...)

    A quote from the Garbage song 'Androgyny':

    free your mind in your androgyny
    I personally think that the world is evolving towards an enhanced understanding (and embracing, even if not fully consciously) of androgyny and sexuality that is not necessarily set in stone... And if you detect it in the media, it's (IMO) not propaganda as some religious conspiracy theorists may think, it's simply a commercial harnessing of what was already there all along.
    Last edited by Awani; 12-05-2016 at 05:51 PM. Reason: fix title

  2. #2
    Yes, gay is the new chic. It's also a failed experiment of many past confused and conquered cultures, an abheration of nature and a genetic dead end. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, nothing new under the sun. We will never agree on this topic, sorry if you're unhappy with the equipment God gave you or choose to use it in unintended ways. The End IS important in all things, and so is the purpose.
    Last edited by thrival; 06-18-2013 at 02:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thrival View Post
    Yes, gay is the new chic. It's also a failed experiment of many past confused and conquered cultures, an abheration of nature and a genetic dead end. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, nothing new under the sun. We will never agree on this topic, sorry if you're unhappy with the equipment God gave you or choose to use it in unintended ways. The End IS important in all things, and so is the purpose.
    I understand that these are your opinions. Hopefully, such concepts will fade in time and more holistic/all-encompassing views on nature and creation will gradually take their place.

    Until that time, it's kind of beneath me to actually (textually) address your bigoted comments and distorted 'logic' - so I'll just post some videos and pics instead, which are somehow related to the topics you brought up.



    It's also a failed experiment of many past confused and conquered cultures
    Last edited by Andro; 11-17-2016 at 03:55 PM. Reason: Removed broken video link.

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    Thrival, I have a lot of things I want to say against your views but I won't contribute to derailing.

    Please head over to the Sexual Orientation and Alchemy thread if you want to get set straight.
    Last edited by Andro; 06-18-2013 at 04:36 PM. Reason: Thread topic management.

  5. #5
    Hi Androgynous;

    I know it's perceived as bigoted but the question of who is promulgating a "distortion" is but a historical footnote. Maybe it's something in the water, flushed pharmaceuticals, or plastic bottles that leach. Hormones do affect human behavior, it's only a matter of time before it begins influencing philosophy and justifications (again). Anyway, apart from a few oddities in nature (when they occur), sex is a behaviour, and that involves choices, while feelings are but subjective vagueries. Just because person(s) feel things are or should be a certain way, doesn't make them true. And don't think I'm unfamiliar with the opposite camp, arguements or politics, I just disagree with them, vociferously. I know many on this board are sympathetic to yours, but I don't really see personal sexual orientation as having much to do with alchemy, but I have noticed how gay people like to inject the topic into others, and certainly not most or all alchemists are gay. Nature is very able to differentiate, form follows function, yada yada, and not every distinction humans offer is an improvement. In fact some will get you bombed back into the stone age, wouldn't be the first time. If nature made you an oddity, there's no shame in that, but it's also not a license to "Do as thou Wilt" (without consequences.)

    Since Alchemists like to call themselves "philospher's" of nature, the premise is they came by their views scientifically, disspassionately, via observations; therefore you shouldn't use adjectives like "bigoted" (unless you're OK with "perverted") just because someone's conclusions differ from yours. I just don't have time to stop and pay homage to every passing gay parade. The question is, will expression of the opinions of a silent majority, who are "OK" with what nature gave them, get a person banned from a discussion board whose members purport themselves as truthseekers in all aspects of life?

    Lunsola:

    Already "straight," but thank you anyway. I agree that the thread you mentioned would be a better place to discuss the topic, only that the gay issue was added to this youtube thread before me, and mine was simply comment to it.
    Last edited by thrival; 06-18-2013 at 12:50 PM.

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    Thrival, the first thing I'm going to address is your "God" viewpoint. Like God doesn't make mistakes. Babies get born with flaws and physical defects all the time. If you were born with something wrong or different with you then you would want to live your life to the fullest as well. So how can you judge any of us for trying to live our lives to the fullest when you would do the same or suffer horribly if you were in the same situation, it's absurd. It's like saying "Oh! hey! you were born blind! Suck it up, that's how God wants you." or "You chose this, you chose to have everyone hate you, now let me throw rocks at you!" Don't you see how asinine that sounds? That's basically your opinion. You can try to sugar coat it but it's hate talk wrapped in a pretty pink box of your insecurity and ignorance. Nobody would choose to be LBGT/different with so much hate in the world, it makes zero sense.

    Homosexuality is not a choice for a REAL/pure 100% heterosexual. If you think homosexuality is a choice then you must be bisexual because real heterosexuals have no choice in the matter. Likewise some homosexual people have no choice. I think most people are bi which is why it's such a wildly popular belief that homosexuality is a choice. The act of sex is a choice but the inner feelings and desires are NOT. The only thing LBGT people can do is choose to be happy which seems to burn up people like you. Nobody is hurting you, you don't have to read our posts and you certainly don't have to post hate/judgment. The world will keep spinning even if 90% of the world population has continuous homosexual relations, it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. You should try to be more considerate of other people's feelings and thank your God he didn't give you any "problems" like these. Most of our problems are just dealing with other people so you should be able to understand the frustration even if just from a theoretical viewpoint.

    Hormones don't turn homosexuals straight, there have been experiments to try this.

    Anyone who can't see how sexual orientation relates to alchemy probably isn't a very good alchemist. To one who truly understands alchemy everything is related, it is everywhere.

    Why are you so against those who are different? Religion perhaps, which has no legitimacy at all. Culture/society, which is completely constructed. There isn't anything wrong with being gay and there is no argument you can possibly supply to prove otherwise. The truth is we came into this world with no guide, no set of rules, and nothing stopping us from living how we want. Of course there will be consequences, there are consequences for everything including inaction. I'll choose the consequences I can live with or make my life as good as possible and I would advise others to do the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Androgynus View Post
    In the days of glam rock, supposedly hetero artists like David Bowie (among others) put on bisexual/androgynous images for publicity, while gay artists had to stay in the closet (i.e. Elton John, and later Michael Stipe and many others) for fear of neanderthalic public opinion. In other words, it was OK for show, but people didn't want to know the truth behind the act.
    During those days of Glam Rock, Jobriath became, as far as I know, the first Rock musician who had a contract with one of the HUGE labels (Elektra, in 1973) and publicly declared that he was gay... and the idea that he was gay was one of the two main ways in which his label tried to promote him (the other being the idea that he claimed that he was an extraterrestrial... then again, nobody took this idea too seriously and it only meant that Jobriath was eccentric... so the main promotion he had was tha he was gay and dressed like an Alien).
    I think Jobriath became a big lesson for the music industry during those years.
    Elektra spent a lot of money promoting his albums and shows... They gave him the best possible musicians for his shows (like Led Zeppelin's John Paul Jones)... And yet his career was a total failure (I must say that I do listen to his albums often, but his career as a musician made the big companies/labels think that promoting a musician who was openly gay was a disaster).



    He had a son titled "I am a man"... the song mostly explained that he would be able to love a woman in the way that a man loves a woman, but that he decided not to do it because he's a "graceful man", an "elegan man" and other ways of explaining that he was gay... and, since he was gay, he was unable to "love".

    Yeah, take it for granted that Jobriath was far from being a genius like Bowie, but he was way better than, say, Gary Glitter... who had a huge success being a terrible musician, but mostly showing the "macho" side of Glam Rock.

    Both Jobriath and Gary Glitter were somehow "created" by big labels... but Jobriath was given the role of an Alien (probably because he was gay?), whilst Gary Glitter was given the role of some sort of glamorous biker with shirts that showed that he had lots of hair in his chest and other "macho features" even if he wore glam clothes.

    It is funny how History repeats itself.
    In 1981, the RCA Label also hired an openly gay musician, Klaus Nomi...
    The Glam Years were long, but New Wave was the new "big thing" and the Neue Deutsche Welle was quite fashionable.
    This is almost one decade after Jobriath was hired.
    And Nomi was also promoted as a Gay Extraterrestrial!
    And the first single that the RCA decided to release for him was "Simple Man".



    Following a similar style to Jobriath's son, "Simple Man" mostly was a way of explaining that Nomi was a Simple (Gay) Man who was unable to love, that he was doing "the best he can".

    The message of both songs is quit similar: Gay men were some sort of extraterrestrial creatures who were unable to love... you said "t was OK for show, but people didn't want to know the truth behind the act."

    I think people wanted to hear that these "gay extraterrestrials" were somehow handicapped creatures that were unable to love or have sex.

    No surprise, Nomi's career became a disaster too (from an economical point of view, of course... as a musican, he was incredibly talented).

    And then, the underground scene offered artists who were very different to these "sexless gay extraterrestrials"... Probably my favorite example is Jayne County, the first transexual punk singer, who had a sex-change surgery.... and mostly decided to give up the style of showing herself as a handicapped alien and became very confrontational, with songs like: "Are you man enough to be a woman?" or "If you don't wanna fuck me, then fuck off!".



    I got a transexual feeling
    It's hard to be true to the one that's really you
    I got a scandalous feeling
    It's hard to be true when they point and stare at you
    Conditioned to portraying the mask of masculinity
    Another blend of different shading
    I am what I am
    I don't give a damn
    I wanna know, Are you man enough to be a woman?


    That's probably one of my favorite punk songs... It is still interesting that Jayne County was there when Punk started in England, she got a role in Derek Jarman's Jubilee movie, the first punk fiction (Jarman... a man who did awesome movies about gay rights)... and yet she was absolutely forgotten in almost every history of Punk music that was written... as if she didn't exist.

    Then again... the fact that Jayne County was not just gay, but also transexual has a lot to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Androgynus View Post
    I personally think that the world is evolving towards an enhanced understanding (and embracing, even if not fully consciously) of androgyny and sexuality that is not necessarily set in stone... And if you detect it in the media, it's (IMO) not propaganda as some religious conspiracy theorists may think, it's simply a commercial harnessing of what was already there all along.
    I've talked a lot about music, maybe because I like music... maybe because pop/rock music are very much like a mirror of the societies in which we live.

    Yes, the western world is becoming more open minded about sexuality (I don't think the middle-eastern world is doing such thing at all, but mostly the opposite... gay rights and women rights are both being destroyed daily there).

    As a side comment.... I think I am not very enthusiast about this idea of "androgynity".
    It does remind me a lot of Lautréamont's tale of the Hermaphrodite (in Les Chants de Maldoror, of course)...
    the most beautiful story in that book, and yet a very sad story, because this Hermaphrodite feels like a monster and can only "dream of love", because the androginous body of this hermaphrodite is a hadicapped body when it comes to having sex with either a man or a woman.
    You know, a bit like the "handicapped for sex Gay extraterrestrials" that the music industry created (Jobriath and Nomi).

    I do prefer a world were the gays can be gays, the lesbians can be lesbians and the transexuals can be transexuals... instead of the "sexless extraterrestrials".

    The homophobic macho culture is the worst of all cultures.
    A lot of heterosexuals are currently getting rid of it because it has nothing to offer... to anyone.
    If the "Homophobic Macho Culture" is the "Natural Culture"... then, oh well... I won't really cry when that "Natural Culture" finally dies... and all of us dare to create something which is certainly happies and healthier for our bodies, minds, spirits and souls.

    To me, a homophobic alchemist makes even less sense than... hmmm... the existence of Tom Cruise.

    ... And I'm still a Zero in that Kinsey thing you've posted O_o

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    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    I think I am not very enthusiast about this idea of "androgynity".
    It does remind me a lot of Lautréamont's tale of the Hermaphrodite (in Les Chants de Maldoror, of course)...
    the most beautiful story in that book, and yet a very sad story, because this Hermaphrodite feels like a monster and can only "dream of love",
    because the androginous body of this hermaphrodite is a hadicapped body when it comes to having sex with either a man or a woman.
    Well, first there is the internal spiritual androgyny - the ability to conduct a mix of both male and female energies, regardless of gender or orientation.

    And if androgynous bodies ever make a re-entrance, rather than a handicap, I see it as a way to enjoy intimacy with either gender (that is, if separate genders still exist when this happens )

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    To me, a homophobic alchemist makes even less sense than... hmmm... the existence of Tom Cruise.
    LOL... You said it Careful, he apparently has people scouting the media and suing anyone who he feels threatened by (like he sued that South Park episode)...

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    ... And I'm still a Zero in that Kinsey thing you've posted O_o
    And I don't like you one bit less because of that
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    All and all, it's been a while since I enjoyed a post so much! Thank you!

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    I don't have any opinions on sexual orientation. What matters to me is to be true to oneself, whatever that may be.
    I'm in a relationship with a lesbian right now. I haven't unlesbianised her, but she loves me more than any other person,
    and we have amazing sex and talks and everything. Should I have not been interested in her because she identified herself
    as a lesbian? I don't believe in identities... y'all know that. I know who we are beyond our genitalia. That's what loves.

    None of you are gay to me. None of you are straight to me. None of you are just men or women to me. I don't believe you.
    http://serpentrioarquila.blogspot.com/

    "To conjure is nothing else than to observe anything rightly, to know and understand what it is." - Paracelsus

    "Why, then, don't you act when you see the danger of your conditioning? The answer is you don't see... seeing is acting." J. Krishnamurti

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    Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi View Post
    I don't have any opinions on sexual orientation. What matters to me is to be true to oneself, whatever that may be.
    I'm in a relationship with a lesbian right now. I haven't unlesbianised her, but she loves me more than any other person,
    and we have amazing sex and talks and everything. Should I have not been interested in her because she identified herself
    as a lesbian? I don't believe in identities... y'all know that. I know who we are beyond our genitalia. That's what loves.

    None of you are gay to me. None of you are straight to me. None of you are just men or women to me. I don't believe you.
    Hi Solomon,

    Of course none of us are straight. N dimensional fractals are infinitely rough in every dimension. Good to here of this. Are you intending to engage in a partnered Alchemy? If you have any questions perhaps I could provide useful information. I never let labels get in my way either. At a small college (1100) I was the largest focus of gossip despite having done nothing that would normally be the focus of gossip and I got labeled. A group of over fed elementary ed majors in particular were out to get me. I had run into them in my child psych courses. They took aside the girls I hung out with and warned them and everybody else that I was "dangerous". When pressed they warned specifically that I used too many big words. The girls they warned thought that was desirable characteristic.

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