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Thread: what seperation methods work in the wet method

  1. #31
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    If that is what you have TF you might want to read this...

    ANCIENT MINERALS

    Ghislain

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghislain View Post
    If that is what you have TF you might want to read this...

    ANCIENT MINERALS

    Ghislain
    It is not the magnesium ion that promotes health but the substances that are carried with it. That's why the title of the article says "Ancient Minerals". If you take the magnesium from an artificial, chemical source it does not have those effects. Just my opinion, we could elaborate this more in other thread or pm

  3. #33
    i found some nice article on separation of magnesium from calcium, and i think this could be a nice way to separate magnesium from DSS bit.ly/1k4rcaK

    calcium can be precipitated out by the use of H2SO4 and some heat...

    i will get me self some calcium chloride to test this out, i will be back with some results soon...


    with love....

    edit. some lab note's for if some one would like to reproduce the process.


    Saturate solution DSS
    Saturate solution NaCO3

    add NaCO3 to DSS until no more precipitates

    filter / wash
    weigh this precipitate, add 50 pro-cent of this weight of CaCl2 to the in water suspended precipitate "this is maybe something to play with"

    heat this solution.. "maybe need a pressure cooker"

    filter and collect precipitate + wash (this should be calcium with orme meterial)

    add hcl to precipitate suspended in water

    dissolve all the precipitate.

    add H2SO4 and the heat solution.

    Cool it down..

    filter and discard precipitate (this is the calcium)

    reprecipitate liquid with NaHO / NaCO3 / KCO3 (this should be orme + some trace minerals )

    this precipitate should not contain any calcium nor magnesium..
    Last edited by Wigwamman; 12-15-2013 at 05:50 PM.

  4. #34
    as for the post above... i do not have any calcium chloride jet...

    and i was still working on some other thing


    some interesting property of sodium bicarbonate can be used..

    take some DSS and dissolve it in water,

    heat this solution until it boils,
    add a sodium bicabonate solution this will produce some fizzing. heat this solution until it tops fizzing (+- 1 min) and let it cool down (add some water to speed up the cooldown..)


    some of the precipitate will redissolve when the solution is cooling down.. this is a good thing


    after it all settles down you have here your magnesium carbonate and calcium carbonate
    some source materials.
    yhoo.it/199IgKy
    yhoo.it/Ju7CXc





    " you cant see it as well on the foto but it consists of very small flakes, the precipitate settles quite quickly. "i have some magnesium carbonate and it looks exactly the same"

    filter this solution... (You can do the bicarbo stap 2x to be sure all magnesium and calcium are out of solution, but when a different precipitate forms you should stop)


    make a solution of Sodium carbonate

    and add it to the solution a new very fluffy precipitate will form this precipitate looks very different from the first precipitate..





    you can see that it looks very different from the other precipitate, it forms large flakes, and it formed a very nice bridge, it looks it is 2 layers but it is not, there is also some fluff stuck on the side of the glass cylinder, the precipitate settles quite slow this time


    this precipitate would be mostly Orme... and some traces of magnesium carbonate,



    With love...
    Last edited by Wigwamman; 12-17-2013 at 04:17 AM.

  5. #35
    Hopefully this is not off on a tangent.

    Modern lab centrifuge, would this have use for separation. It is not a traditional Alchemical approach I admit.

  6. #36
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    Thanks for sharing this process Wigwamman
    Quote Originally Posted by Wigwamman View Post
    some of the precipitate will redissolve when the solution is cooling down.. this is a good thing
    I want to mention here that this is a rare thing to happen in nature. Usually salts dissolve easier in hot water, not in cold.. So when one sees an effect like this, some more investigation is required. Here you can see solubilities of various salts versus temperature: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table Usually solubilities rise with higher temp, not the opposite. It seems that calcium hydroxide is one of those rare salts that dissolve better in cold water, I dont know if that can explain what Wigwamman has observed. (CaOH would probably have reacted with sodaand left out sooner. But if soda is not in an excess?..)

    I have performed a similar operation with soda and DSS and I can verify what Wigwamman has observed. In my case, I have reached to a precipitate that consists of little "grains", looks like fish' eggs and sticks on the tube.



    Upon heating with torch, it passes through a dark color and then white again. This salt attracts to magnet (strong neodymium magnet). I haven't replicated yet those observations.

    Also, I would like to hint to those friends who are going to perform the operation to have an eye on the gases evolved. Probably they are not simply CO2. The carbonate is precipitated together with Mg and Ca ions, so, the nature of the rising gas remains a question to me.

    Finally, it would be nice if someone try to perform the operation using sodium carbonate instead of sodium bicarbonate. A positive or neagative result could help us demistify the process. Sodium carbonate can be made by heating sodium bicarbonate (common soda) strongly.

  7. #37

    alkahest of Salt

    well after some more experimentation,

    i found that most steps above can be discarded, if you just make a salt solution en add some sodium bicarbonate to bring the ph to neutral, and than slowly heating it... after some time the water will become a bit cloudy, now remove the heat source as soon as this happens,

    there will begin to form a reaction... this will go on for some time after words you will have your fluff.. filter this and redo the heating part for some more fluff,

    --------

    what happened in the previous post is that i headed it way to quick so the the magnesium would precipitate out.


    now the theory is... the sodium bicarbonate and the salts form a buffer solution this would break apart the the magnesium chloride and calcium chloride to form a magnesium and calcium bicarbonate this is still a soluble salt with an execs of Co2 in solution, by slowly heating this solution, it will produce Co2 gas witch bubbles true the solution this will carbonizes the orme minerals and will precipitate out of solution as a orme carbonate.

    to my knowledge... if one would do the urine path, and will do the dry method one would calcine at one stage in time, (book of Aquarius) now if you calcine something like distiled urine goop "for a lack of a better word" this will produce Co2 and would carbonize the orme salts.

    or if one would do the salt and dew path it by setting the salt(NaCl) outside on the ground and let the dew breath in and out of it will give the salt a form Co2 boost, because the dew is distiled from the earth, and is very pure it will attract minerals out of the atmosphere and also Co2 this is combined with the dew witch is turn breathing in and out of the salt witch would precipitate the orme minerals out and wild form a fluff or gooey (becouse of the mix with the NaCl)

    (not talking about the deuterium and neutron aspect of it jet)

    about the carbonate material properties.. it is very resistant to heat, witch would correlate with the heat resisted calcined material that is talked about in the books.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheFool
    Upon heating with torch, it passes through a dark color and then white again. This salt attracts to magnet (strong neodymium magnet). I haven't replicated yet those observations
    i need a refill on my torch the stove could not get it hot enough to test this..


    Quote Originally Posted by TheFool
    I want to mention here that this is a rare thing to happen in nature. Usually salts dissolve easier in hot water, not in cold.. So when one sees an effect like this, some more investigation is required. Here you can see solubilities of various salts versus temperature: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table Usually solubilities rise with higher temp, not the opposite. It seems that calcium hydroxide is one of those rare salts that dissolve better in cold water, I dont know if that can explain what Wigwamman has observed. (CaOH would probably have reacted with sodaand left out sooner. But if soda is not in an excess?..)

    i think what is happening is that because of the heat some of the Co2 is realest from the solution this will convert the magnesium and calcium bicarbonate in to magnesium and calcium carbonate witch is not soluble in water and will precipitate out when the solution is cooling down the Co2 out of the atmosphere is attracted to the solution and will redissolve the calcium and magnesium carbonate to form a bicarbonate agean, because of the low ph of the solution it is forced to take up Co2 from the atmosphere.

    a bicarbonate can be formed by bubbling Co2 gas true a carbonate solution according to wikipedia.

    i tested the precipitate to see if it was calcium, i did this by dissolving the powder in some HCL water and and added H2SO4 to is no precipitate formed, i heated this solution (until boiling) to see if it would precipitate but it did not, so i believe it not to be calcium

    i also took some of the powder and took it under a microscope, buttyfull crystalline structures is seen its realy a nice look
    bigger picture http://trdunyam.khoai.vn/android/ima...5114968889.jpg

    made with a phone true a microscope the quality is not super but you can see what i mean by Crystals
    bigger picture http://trdunyam.khoai.vn/android/ima...9935583343.jpg


    Axismundi000

    Hopefully this is not off on a tangent.

    Modern lab centrifuge, would this have use for separation. It is not a traditional Alchemical approach I admit.
    i think this could work
    i don't mind traditional things, but i thing that the the mind can create what ever it can think of and i think that is alchemy as well. so traditions are something to learn from but not something to hold on to

    ------------ edit-----------
    i forgot something imported to add, i dissolved this powder in some HCL and reprecipited it with NaHO washed it and dryed it in a ceramic pan on high fire, there emerged a brownish powder. grinned it up and backed it agean an high fire.. the resulting powder would not dissolve in a HCL solution of ph 3. i also headed some of it up on a spoon on high fire, i very white powder emerged from the brownish substance,


    with love....
    Last edited by Wigwamman; 12-20-2013 at 01:51 AM. Reason: link fix

  8. #38
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    It is not CO2

    Quote Originally Posted by theFool View Post
    Also, I would like to hint to those friends who are going to perform the operation to have an eye on the gases evolved. Probably they are not simply CO2. The carbonate is precipitated together with Mg and Ca ions, so, the nature of the rising gas remains a question to me.
    I have tried again the experiment of heating soda and DSS in a test tube with only little air left on the top of the tube. Heated it and produced the bubbles. The way to check if the evolved gas is CO2, is to immerse in it a lit toothpick. The glow will diminish or extinguish in the case of CO2 existence. In my case the toothpick was not extinguished, thus indicating that the released gas is probably common air trapped in the salt. It could be also just water vapor (unfortunatelly I haven't check the temperature of the water) or something more exotic..

  9. #39

    Water solluble orme... !!

    First of all happy new year everybody,



    second of all, after doing some experiments with sodium carbonate i found it to be the moost awsome stuff there is... when i precipitate DSS with NaCo3 you will have 2 precipitates you can see the differents pretty good. the thing is that the m-state precipitate is less reactive with HCL than the magnesium, so the most simple way to separate it is by adding dilute HCL to the precipitate, this will dissolve the magnesium, and you will be left with m-state.

    when adding acid it bounces from a lower ph slowly up words agean if the ph is about 3-4 and the bounce time is like 1 min than the stuff you have left is pure m-state, the ph of this water above the bouced precipitate is about 8-8.5


    i collected this precipitate and washed and dryed it, than i added some hcl to the precipitate to dissolve it all, adding some water to it when all is dissolved, i filter this to get all gunk out of it,

    i am left with a super clear no color liquid, after slowly boiling this off i was left with a hard crystal (melting point of the powder is at about 160c "this will happen on boildown") this rocky powder was collected and grind in to a powder, this powder is very white and will dissolve in water the ungrined crystal has a bit yellow to white color , the strange thing is that this powder has a ph of about 10 when testing the powder directly, and when added to distiled water the ph is also about 10, so this is a m-state chlorine salt witch is alkaline.

    this is to my knowledge quite strange that a metal chlorine salt is alkaline, but this could me my lag of knowledge.

    when heating this powder on a spoon it melts and decomposes in to a brown to gray powder with the same ph 10.



    this powder is for sure not magnesium nor calcium because magnesium chloride decomposition temperature, 714 C (987 K) (on rapid heating: slow heating leads to decomposition from 300 C)

    and for calcium chloride 772 C (anhydrous)

    melting point of the above powder is about 160-190c and no more

    ..

    with love....

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by theFool View Post
    Finally, it would be nice if someone try to perform the operation using sodium carbonate instead of sodium bicarbonate. A positive or neagative result could help us demistify the process. Sodium carbonate can be made by heating sodium bicarbonate (common soda) strongly.
    I have tried this. Heated the soda bicarbonate and dissolved the soda carbonate in water. Then, upon adding it in DSS solution, it formed immediatelly a white precipitate (no bubbles at all). Heating also gave no bubbles, the reaction was over.
    Some of the clear water above the precipitate was separated and was heated in a test tube. It produced a white fluffy precipitate.
    Another part of the clear water was put to evaporate. I melted some of it very easily heating it in a crucible with a torch. It melted far before the crucible turns red.
    In an attempt to do a blind test, I tried to melt DSS in the crucible. It melted easily and produced a vapor. I propose to capture this vapor (distill the DSS) and see what is it..

    Wigwamman thanks for sharing your latest experiments, the results are more than interesting, I will attempt to catch up and verify.
    Last edited by theFool; 01-02-2014 at 08:48 AM.

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