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Thread: The Kybalion - The 7 Hermetic Principles

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dev View Post
    Great stuff. I welcome the VR future with open arms.

    Another fractal level



    Ghislain
    Last edited by Ghislain; 08-20-2015 at 05:22 PM.
    Open Book
    "Dogmatic Assumption Inhibits Enquiry" Rupert Sheldrake

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Androgynus View Post
    Well my dear, I can't expect your immediate interest without a bit of foreplay
    Foreplay successful...listened to the whole thing.

    Found it most interesting, if a little dogmatic in as much as they assume a considerable amount and then profess it as truth.

    I can see what you mean where you say, "I personally find a lot of 'holes' in the Kybalion cheese. But it's good stuff nevertheless." Androgynus.

    I like and can relate to the Seven Hermetic Principles.

    Ghislain
    Open Book
    "Dogmatic Assumption Inhibits Enquiry" Rupert Sheldrake

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiorionis View Post
    It's been awhile since I've read the Kybalion, but I wonder if these correspondences make sense to anyone who has read it recently or remembers it well

    Mentality - Crown 'chakra'
    Correspondence - Third Eye
    Vibration - Throat
    Rhythm - Heart
    Polarity - Solar Plexus
    Cause and Effect - Sacral
    Gender - Root
    What do those correspondences mean to you Kiorionis...?

    Ghislain

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Androgynus View Post
    Upon second reading, the book is deep in some aspects, but rather naive and immature in others.

    (...)

    He tends to repeatedly belittle mankind/the human experience ("we poor, petty mortals" and such...) and also to prove his assumptions based on the same assumptions he is trying to prove...

    IMO, this work is definitely NOT a comprehensive foundation of Hermetic Philosophy. It is full of 'bugs'.


    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
    Well, the book claims to have several authors. Looks like at least one of them was Paul Foster Case, a member of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn for a while, who also wrote stuff about Spiritual Alchemy and is particularly known for his important books on Tarot.
    I think that Paul Foster Case was the three authors. Pretending to be three just as a reference to the idea of "Trismegistus".

    Foster Case was a member of the Alpha et Omega, which was in my opinion, the better version that the classical Golden Dawn had.

    However, Foster Case, was a very atypical one. He has a lot of phobias about "magic" and was convinces that usual theurgic practices of the Alhpa et Omega (Golden Dawn) could lead to "satanic results". His mindset was, by far more religious than theurgical.

    The Kybalion is very much like a "photo" of his psyche.

    The famous 7 principles are, for sure, an influence he received from the Golden Dawn... specially from the Qabalah lessons of the Golden Dawn and not really from the "Corpus Hermeticum" (with a stress on the school of Luria, the book by von Rosenroth and a specific Arcanum of the Qabalah which has no known author, but mostly links the Genesis / Cosmogony with Qabalah and Alchemy, though only as a "theory" -i.e, I know the Arcanum and I'd say that it would be quite hard to guess a way in which it can be translated to a practice in a Lab).

    And then the idiocracy of Foster Case... which is probably more "religious" than "theurgic" and has a lot of "we, poor mortals".

    I do not think that Case had in mind the Chakras when he created the 7 principles.
    The number 7 is very much like a "fetish" number in the Golden Dawn and it is typical to find Golden Dawn texts in which different things are divided in 7 principles, 7 officers, 7 whatever....

    This 7 is sometimes linked to the 7 "classical" planets and sometimes not... but I have never seen (in the context of the Golden Dawn) a link between this 7 and the Chakras (indeed, the Golden Dawn has 3 different systems of "chakras", one of them is a system of 5 and it is the so called "middle pillar", the other one is a system of 10 and it is the projection of the 10 sephiroth in the body, finally a system of 7 that is based on the "hindu Chakras" and it is mostly used in correspondence with the Tattwas, but it's the least developed one).

    I don't really think that Case had such thing in mind whilst creating his 7 principles... though, of course, it is not a sin to create an hypothesis and unite both ideas if it leads to an interesting result.

    Other than that, I do see the famous Kybalion as a text that is quite overrated. It is nice, but I don't know if it goes beyond than just being "nice".

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    The famous 7 principles are, for sure, an influence he received from the Golden Dawn... specially from the Qabalah lessons of the Golden Dawn and not really from the "Corpus Hermeticum" (with a stress on the school of Luria, the book by von Rosenroth and a specific Arcanum of the Qabalah which has no known author, but mostly links the Genesis / Cosmogony with Qabalah and Alchemy, though only as a "theory" -i.e, I know the Arcanum and I'd say that it would be quite hard to guess a way in which it can be translated to a practice in a Lab).
    Where can I find the Arcanum? Is it in the "black brick" published by Regardie, or can it be downloaded somewhere?

    And then the idiocracy of Foster Case... which is probably more "religious" than "theurgic" and has a lot of "we, poor mortals".

    I do not think that Case had in mind the Chakras when he created the 7 principles.
    The number 7 is very much like a "fetish" number in the Golden Dawn and it is typical to find Golden Dawn texts in which different things are divided in 7 principles, 7 officers, 7 whatever....

    This 7 is sometimes linked to the 7 "classical" planets and sometimes not... but I have never seen (in the context of the Golden Dawn) a link between this 7 and the Chakras (indeed, the Golden Dawn has 3 different systems of "chakras", one of them is a system of 5 and it is the so called "middle pillar", the other one is a system of 10 and it is the projection of the 10 sephiroth in the body, finally a system of 7 that is based on the "hindu Chakras" and it is mostly used in correspondence with the Tattwas, but it's the least developed one).

    I don't really think that Case had such thing in mind whilst creating his 7 principles... though, of course, it is not a sin to create an hypothesis and unite both ideas if it leads to an interesting result.
    It goes without saying that there are generally lots of Septenaries in the occult tradition. Some can be meaningfully superposed, others can't. Case also presents a model of seven levels of existence in the book as far as I remember. But the seven principles don't seem to be direct analogies to those, or to the chakras or planets.

    Other than that, I do see the famous Kybalion as a text that is quite overrated. It is nice, but I don't know if it goes beyond than just being "nice".
    Well, I would agree that it partially looks outdated, but besides being a summary of some important principles in a fairly entertaining form, it conveys certain concepts that I personally find thought provoking. For example, it differentiates between Polarity (as a lower/higher kind of relationship) and Gender (a relationship on the same plane). The former would be exemplified by the relationship between the Sun and Saturn, the latter by the Sun and the Moon, in my understanding. So the text seems to contain subtleties that could be elaborated on.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
    Where can I find the Arcanum? Is it in the "black brick" published by Regardie, or can it be downloaded somewhere?
    I believe it has never been published.
    It is simply an Arcanum that is heavily based on Gematria and the calligraphy or "pictorial form" of the Hebrew letters and relates the whole thing with the THEORY of Alchemy*, specially the correspondence between the undifferentiated first matter and the last matter.

    *The nature of the first matter, the last matter, the secret fire, the vessel and the process... though without providing a "recipe".

    It does not really say something that either Andrgynus or Ghyslain is not saying here, it is simply a bit more "elegant".

    I can't publish it here, but don't worry... it's very beautiful, but it's not really the best text ever written in the history of mankind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
    It goes without saying that there are generally lots of Septenaries in the occult tradition. Some can be meaningfully superposed, others can't. Case also presents a model of seven levels of existence in the book as far as I remember. But the seven principles don't seem to be direct analogies to those, or to the chakras or planets.
    As someone who has been involved with the Golden Dawn (for decades) and many other similar orders, it gets quite obvious for me that the Kybalion is VERY inspired by the Golden Dawn, but through the unusual views of Foster Case... a very "atypical" Golden Dawner.

    The "Chakras" theory is probably misleading because the chakras have a very minor importance in the Golden Dawn... and when Case left the Golden Dawn to create his own "version" of the Golden Dawn (B.O.T.A.), the chakras became even less important.

    Such thing doesn't mean that a person can relate the whole thing with Chakras and arrive to an awesome theory, that's possible... I am just saying that it was probably not the intention that the author (Foster Case) has in mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
    Well, I would agree that it partially looks outdated, but besides being a summary of some important principles in a fairly entertaining form, it conveys certain concepts that I personally find thought provoking. For example, it differentiates between Polarity (as a lower/higher kind of relationship) and Gender (a relationship on the same plane). The former would be exemplified by the relationship between the Sun and Saturn, the latter by the Sun and the Moon, in my understanding. So the text seems to contain subtleties that could be elaborated on.
    It is my belief that Case was trying to develop an Arcanum and the Kybalion was his first attempt, somehow failed.

    And then he wrote his "Book of Tokens" that is related to Tarot and used it as the foundational text for his own order.

    With the Kyalion he wanted to give a sense of "false antiquity" and somehow attach it to the fame of the "Corpus hermeticum". I do not think he has succeeded.

    Other than that... it's a book woth reading, but hardly an amazing book (but "worth reading" is quite good actually... most books written on the genre of the "Occult" often don't deverse such title).
    Last edited by Andro; 08-25-2015 at 06:49 AM. Reason: BB codes fixed.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    As someone who has been involved with the Golden Dawn (for decades) and many other similar orders, it gets quite obvious for me that the Kybalion is VERY inspired by the Golden Dawn, but through the unusual views of Foster Case... a very "atypical" Golden Dawner.
    Well, I have been studying Golden Dawn texts a few decades myself, and I am not sure what you perceive as specifically "golden dawnish" about the Kybalion. Perhaps you could elaborate a little?

    Frankly, I am also not sure in what respect Case would be an "atypical" Golden Dawner - most of them were rather individualistic.

    The "Chakras" theory is probably misleading because the chakras have a very minor importance in the Golden Dawn... and when Case left the Golden Dawn to create his own "version" of the Golden Dawn (B.O.T.A.), the chakras became even less important.

    Such thing doesn't mean that a person can relate the whole thing with Chakras and arrive to an awesome theory, that's possible... I am just saying that it was probably not the intention that the author (Foster Case) has in mind.
    Probably not. But as you imply, there is no need for correspondences between esoteric systems to be intentional from the outset in order to work. Actually, I find them most convincing when they were not intended. It sort of confirms that they are in fact a feature of metaphysical reality.

    Reviewing Kirionis' theory, it's actually pretty interesting in parts, although to (perhaps) convince me, some of the analogies would need to be further explained.

    It is my belief that Case was trying to develop an Arcanum and the Kybalion was his first attempt, somehow failed.

    And then he wrote his "Book of Tokens" that is related to Tarot and used it as the foundational text for his own order.

    With the Kyalion he wanted to give a sense of "false antiquity" and somehow attach it to the fame of the "Corpus hermeticum". I do not think he has succeded.
    It's an inspiring story nevertheless, imo - illustrating the holistic/holographic nature of Hermetic thinking. Many good stories in the Hermetic literature don't hold up to historical scrutiny.
    Last edited by Michael Sternbach; 08-24-2015 at 05:12 PM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
    Well, I have been studying Golden Dawn texts a few decades myself, and I am not sure what you perceive as specifically "golden dawnish" about the Kybalion. Perhaps you could elaborate a little?

    Frankly, I am also not sure in what respect Case would be an "atypical" Golden Dawner - most of them were rather individualistic.
    I'm a member of the Golden Dawn among SEVERAL other orders... I'm not a "Golden Dawn hooligan" that will tell you that Golden Dawn is the only real and worthy order (indeed, I am involved with several orders, not just the Golden Dawn.... and I love diversity... I respect all Orders, unless they are cults -Samael Aum Weor or Scientology comes to my mind).

    The Kybalion is very influenced by Golden Dawn ideas, specially the "7 principles".

    (i.e, I am very familiar with different branches of Martinism and I would say that the Kybalion is 100% unrelated to Martinism).

    Foster Case HATED enochian and had a weird fetish with Tarot. A Golden Dawner who hates enochian is very much like a scientologist who is not interested in extraterrestrials.

    The main influenced of the Kybalion are the way in which the Qabalah of Luria and the Qabalah of Rosenroth were understood in the Golden Dawn.


    I don't think that Foster Case had the Chakras in mind, but as you've said... if something of worth can be brought by introducing the Chakras, then that's good. I am not against such thing (though I am somehow against the idea that the text is "secretly" talking about the Chakras, but that's not the same thing).

    And, yes, lots of "Hermetic Texts" suggest a false antiquity and some of them are great (the Chaldean Oracles are among my favorites in that sense... they are not Chaldean, they are not by Zoroaster.... they are great). The famous text by Flamel was, almost for sure, not written by Flamel. etc...

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