Alchemy and Megalomania

[Ghislain]

Vega33, you're full of it.

Just kidding...

I get what you are saying as depending on my energy state I can see the same situation in completely differing ways.

I have recently told myself when I'm up that when I am down I will remember this state of up and look to see what has changed.
You start to realise it is you and not your state of affairs that has changed and it is quite uplifting.

This works quite well, but not perfected yet.

Ghislain

[III]

III,

What makes you "unique, from a long line of nobodies" ?

Care to elaborate, please?

I'll do my best. The setup was too good to turn down for a chance to insert some possibly meaningful humor. The rest is quite coincidental, such as it is.
There is more or less hear than mite meat the I. We are each and all unique and all from a typically long line of nobody special. And those people with such a messiah complex think they are very special. I had a friend that worked at the state mental hospital in the early 70s doing night admissions. He said almost everybody they brought in was “messed up” on religion or booze or both; lots of Christs and other “specials”.

What is "I"? or maybe, or maybe not, a more correct wording Who is "I"? Is "I" this consciousness appearing to live in the illusion of a meat puppet? Is it the meat puppet itself? This “I” doesn’t think it is the meat puppet.

This comes up at an interesting timing. Saturday evening my partner and I were joined in deep trance. She had the experience, in current time, of traveling to India as her current "self", as perhaps a recurrence event, having the reincarnated persona of a powerful Indian Yogini

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogini Yogini is a term that finds reference in several texts related to Hinduism and Buddhism where its literal meaning is "shaman" or wisdom seer (rishi), a definition that could just as easily be interpreted as “alchemist.” Some of the greatest of the ancient rishis were in fact women.[4] A female rishi is known as a rishika

emerging, with the help of her followers recognizing, proclaiming and accepting her as the Vajrayogini (my interpretation), and take over her life, completely submerging her present persona identity. She literally disappeared from her American persona/life, not returning from the trip, declared dead some years later, and gone from the USA for perhaps 20 years, by which time she was able to overcome the reincarnated persona, and re-emerge after remembering herself as an American woman, take back "her life" and return to the USA, with everything that makes up her current life, gone.

This was the recurrence she experienced, lived through. I experienced her “loading” this specific Yogini and her entire lineage, as I did, sort of as “libraries”. As far as I can tell we integrated these, alchemically speaking, as building blocks, as some of the pieces making up our “whole”. I see this as part of Tantra. It’s part of our experience, our Alchemy, our divine alchemical union. Call it what you like. It is of no importance or significance to anybody else.

What doesn’t happen is either of us running around proclaiming ourselves as some reincarnated Christ or Supreme master of the universe. We are practicing a Tantric Alchemy together. I’m not the wild character that some of the notable tantrics are.


We live a quiet, obscure life, you know “chop wood, carry water”. As it’s been put, neither of us is anybody specific. We, and everybody for that matter, is a fractal containing all possible personas made of fractals containing all possible personas ad infinitum. I’m obscure to most everybody, at least spiritually. I’m nobody and don’t have any great message for the world. Even seemingly straight line reincarnations were nobody special beyond their friends; a sheep herder, a priest or priestess of several long gone religions, soldier, butcher, baker and candlestick maker, a heretic, a person who died in WW2 like so many millions of others.

So why when some people get a whiff of knowledge from another life, or persona, or whatever their experience is interpreted as, do they think that they are the greatest thing since spam? Getting entrapped or enthralled by or greatly enamored of the persona of a dead person and having one’s life taken over doesn’t seem all that attractive to either of us. My partner has no desire to “become” that old lady, or proclaim her “wisdom” or whatever, no matter who or what she might have been in her own life, no matter that she had followers who thought she was a holy woman.


Maybe this is more an alchemical hazard than anything. Perhaps those not prepared are overwhelmed. Maybe the megalomaniacs are taken in by the illusions. Maybe they don’t have the strength of their own mind patterns to not be taken in by old “stored” patterns. In alchemy we are designing and making our own unique being, not making a carbon copy of something already done. Each path and each result is unique. Let the Dali Lama and a few others play it as identified reincarnations. Even those are unique each time. I doubt that most of the messiah syndrome folks are anything of the sort. I rather suspect that they are misinterpreting. This experience leaves lots of room for interpretation.

One advantage of doing a partnered Alchemy is that there are always two of us, each providing a check on the other. So in this instance, my partner had the experience and I had a different parallel experience. What does it mean? We don’t really know at this point. It is far from played out.

[Awani]

ADEPT = AD PET

Self-promoting pet to ones own ego!

[Kiorionis]

At this point my question is, what do you do with these people?

The ones who have 'experienced' and are still coping with revelation. The ones who know that they know and will always know. The ones who won't change their minds even if you tell them the most profound truths. The ones who think they know where the conversation is going but dont follow it through, or dont try to grasp the concepts in another's perspective.

?

Is the only thing to be done is just let them be and wait till they get over their 'shell-shock'?

I personally see no other way.

[Krisztian]

At this point my question is, what do you do with these people?

I counsel such people daily.

We should take a look at our judgments and biases, surrender to the reality that not all people meant to be helped. It's the ultimate 'surrender' of self.

Easier said than done however, no?

Is the only thing to be done is just let them be and wait till they get over their 'shell-shock'?

It is now widely accepted in Tx. and psychology that at the root of most, if not all, mental health issues is trauma. To heal, that requires long-term Tx.

I personally see no other way.

We are all gods. That's why no other can change any one else, only if allowed.

[Andro]

Messiah complex

So my question is: If one is truly the/a Messiah, do we still call it a complex???

[Awani]

So my question is: If one is truly the/a Messiah, do we still call it a complex???

No... however there are some issues in terms of saying/knowing or being told one is the Messiah... as you very well know...

[Andro]

as you very well know...

Oh, don't I know... Shaking off all the followers & believers can be a full time job sometimes

[zoas23]

In the past, present and most probably in the future we will have, and have had, people here in the forums that suffer from megalomania. People who say they are Masters, Adepts or have the 100% truth in their possession - and everyone else is wrong.

What I, personally, have discovered studying alchemy is humility and open-mindedness. The deeper I go the less of a Master I feel I need to be. Master status is for shallow and ridiculous people. If you need the verification of OTHER people you don't, by instant default, deserve any respect or reverence at all. IMO.
(...)

Question: it seems to me alchemy attracts megalomaniacs and why is that (or is this a trait that all kinds of areas/movements/subject suffer from eventually)?

Maybe this is a narrow minded thread.
I can't know if the egg or if the chicken come first here (i.e, if alchemy can lead to megalomania or if alchemy attracts megalomaniacs)... but it is still probably a narrow minded point of view.
I see ALL types of persons, even in your forum (as to use it as an example).
Sure it can lead to megalomania (or attract people who were potential megalomaniacs?).
I have also seen how people can behave in very rude ways.
But I have also seen how it can lead to a great generosity, kindness, friendship, the will to help... good traits.

And, of course, some people (probably everyone, rather than "some people") have mixed traits.

i.e, for some reason mr. JDP came to my mind. I do not think he is a megalomaniac, and i think he is honest (i.e, he is VERY open when it comes to explaining what he actually achieved and what he did not). I do not think there is a more stubborn person in the whole history of mankind... but he is also extremely helpful when anyone has a doubt about a text (i.e, if I have doubts about which text is the first one that mentions X thing, I often ask JDP and he comes back with the right answer, which is very helpful for me, even if I often disagree with his ideas, but I fid such thing very kind from him).

In the same way that this forum accepts donations... and the "reward" is not really the reason that makes people donate (at least that's what I think), and several persons have donated some $$$ at least once... which is something that I can only translate as "OK, it's a nice project, I like it, I will help financially with something".

I also remember meeting two different alchemists during a trip in far away cities... the two of them gave me an amazing "city tour", in both cases showing me surprising alchemical monuments / symbols / etc in their cities. A third one hosted me at his own home for a week (which I believe is one of the most amazing things a person can do, telling another person that he can stay at his own house).

... Or I can think of the times in which we did the AF book #1, one of the authors could not pay for his copies because of some restrictions of his country (or something like that)... My reaction was offering to pay for his copies (which I did... mostly because the idea that an author could not get his own book didn't make any sense to me).

I do remember myself talking to someone here about a surgery that a family member was going to go through... the very first reaction of the other person was asking me the number of my bank account. I didn't understand why he wanted such thing... the person wanted to send immediately the $$$ that the surgery may cost (I said that it was not needed, because it was not needed, but that was very kind).

I do remember a friend who needed some alchemical help for a specific problem... a kind person who doesn't even know me quite well offered his help and asked for absolutely nothing in return (I can't go into details, but the solution to the problem costed both time and money to this person who got absolutely nothing in return -except "good karma" as to say it in a colloquial way).

So, of course, some people are megalomaniacs... but it is not a majority, and most people are a mix of traits (a mix that very often doesn't include megalomania).

Certainly a few persons behave like Donald Trump... but there is a vast majority that doesn't... and it's not a 2 sided coin, but a polyhedron with many different faces.

[Andro]

A third one hosted me at his own home for a week (which I believe is one of the most amazing things a person can do, telling another person that he can stay at his own house).

Awani hosted me and my friend in his home for a whole week as well (I think in the summer of 2014), and that was incredibly awesome and kind of him and his life partner. This was also when we recorded (and filmed) this podcast. It was fun doing the whole road-trip from Amsterdam (with a one-day stop in Copenhagen), at one point we needed to engage the rocket engines to catch the ferry

So, as a flip-side to the "megalomania" topic, kindness often begets kindness.