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Thread: Rosicrucian Symbols

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    Firstly, I just checked and the Hebrew spelling is ישוע and not יהושוע as I wrote earlier. Still not fitting the 'forced spelling' of יהשוה (thus ignoring the original Hebrew root ישע).

    Secondly, the name 'Yeshu' (ישו) is often associated in rabbinical writings with the initials of: ימח שמו וזכרו - meaning "May his name and memory be obliterated".

    Religious trolling never grows old, on any side...

    Oh, you won't find ANY reference to YHShVH previous to the XVII century. It is actually a FORCED spelling and a product of Hermetic Qabalah... created because it was convenient.
    The name is, as you've said, historically and orthographically, incorrect. I am 100% aware of it (I think that probably ALL the authors that use that name are aware that it is an "artifice" or a "forced spelling").... and the idea is to introduce a fifth letter into the tetragrammaton YHVH as the "secret fire" that creates a transmutation in the four elements.
    You are not wrong when you claim that it is historically and orthographically wrong.

    I've never read the Talmud to be honest, I'm not very interested in it.

  2. #12
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    I am not THAT interested in this topic myself, but I have noticed more than once how original Hebrew root-words and letter combinations are being mutilated by Western occult currents to fit their boxes and theorems. I'm not such a big Hebrew scholar myself, but I happen to have received private lessons (with a private tutor) in Hebrew (my mother is a linguist by training, so it also meant private lessons in other languages as well, including private English lessons from age 3 ).

    Anyway, there is an extremely well founded logic and reasoning to WHY Hebrew words and roots are constructed the way they are constructed, and alterations are highly likely to miss the entire concept/context of the intended meaning.

    Personally, if I'd go for Qabalistic teachings, I'd go for the Lurianic system OR for the more modern (and more open-minded) real Hebrew-based schools, especially if there's a Gnostic flavor involved...

    My 'advice' to Western R+C schools who dabble in Hebrew-based Qabala would be to either properly study Hebrew (especially the grammar and the root system) OR stick to Latin or to their own native tongues (German, French, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Oh, you won't find ANY reference to YHShVH previous to the XVII century. It is actually a FORCED spelling and a product of Hermetic Qabalah... created because it was convenient.
    The name is, as you've said, historically and orthographically, incorrect. I am 100% aware of it (I think that probably ALL the authors that use that name are aware that it is an "artifice" or a "forced spelling").... and the idea is to introduce a fifth letter into the tetragrammaton YHVH as the "secret fire" that creates a transmutation in the four elements.
    You are not wrong when you claim that it is historically and orthographically wrong.

    I've never read the Talmud to be honest, I'm not very interested in it.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    I am not THAT interested in this topic myself, but I have noticed more than once how original Hebrew root-words and letter combinations are being mutilated by Western occult currents to fit their boxes and theorems. I'm not such a big Hebrew scholar myself, but I happen to have received private lessons (with a private tutor) in Hebrew (my mother is a linguist by training, so it also meant private lessons in other languages as well, including private English lessons from age 3 ).

    Anyway, there is an extremely well founded logic and reasoning to WHY Hebrew words and roots are constructed the way they are constructed, and alterations are highly likely to miss the entire concept/context of the intended meaning.

    Personally, if I'd go for Qabalistic teachings, I'd go for the Lurianic system OR for the more modern (and more open-minded) real Hebrew-based schools, especially if there's a Gnostic flavor involved...

    My 'advice' to Western R+C schools who dabble in Hebrew-based Qabala would be to either properly study Hebrew (especially the grammar and the root system) OR stick to Latin or to their own native tongues (German, French, etc...)
    Andro:

    1) The so called Hermetic Qabalah is 100% based on Luria and completely Gnostic.

    2) ALL the systems of Qabalah are mostly identical... I've had the great experience of talking to a Rabbiwho had studied Qabalah for 50 years (the translator of the works of Philo of Alexandria to Spanish) for some 6 hours... his basis was Rabbinic, my basis was Hermetic, and yet our language was the same... we found no contradictions in our ideas. It is actually the SAME thing.

    3) Probably the only difference is the inclusion of YHShVH... I get why such "artifice" was included, but if you forget that "alteration", then it's the same thing.

    4) The person who taught me Qabalah was a collaborator of Kaplan, probably the most notorious and best contemporary Rabbi (he's dead nowadays, but he died a decade ago or so). They never had a problem in collaborating and sharing ideas even if their basis were "different".

    5) There is only ONE Qabalah.***

    6) The Rosicrucian tradition never gave much importance to Latin, neither to Greek.

    7) The roots are very important in Qabalah... this is also true for the Rosicrucian use of Qabalah. Some things don't even make sense without understanding them.

    8) The basis for Qabalah is always the Sepher Yetzirah, the Sepher Bahir, the Zohar, etc... this is true for a Rabbi, this is true for a "Hermetic Qabalist"... I think that most of your complains are not truly justified and it's a prejudice (assuming that something works in a way, when it works in a different way).


    *** The only person who did something a bit "strange" was Abulafia, but still the prophetic Qabalah of Abulafia is not a "different" Qabalah actually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    I think that most of your complains are not truly justified and it's a prejudice (assuming that something works in a way, when it works in a different way).
    Maybe. But I've seen other examples in Western mysticism (not just YHShVH) 'mutilating' Hebrew roots and twisting/rearranging them to fit their theorems. It's even worse when they 'translate' it to English, assuming that the same linguistic templates & alphabetically expressed thought-forms apply. Maybe it doesn't occur at the more 'initiated' levels', but it's a rather common phenomenon in various circles...

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    Questions:

    How much (if any) of R+C Christian mysticism is based on the New Testament?

    What was the original language of the books compiling the New Testament? (gospels, epistles, etc...)

    Did/do those who are mostly influenced by Christian Gnosticism also use the Qabala as an initiatory and/or operative system?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    Maybe. But I've seen other examples in Western mysticism (not just YHShVH) 'mutilating' Hebrew roots and twisting/rearranging them to fit their theorems. It's even worse when they 'translate' it to English, assuming that the same linguistic templates & alphabetically expressed thought-forms apply. Maybe it doesn't occur at the more 'initiated' levels', but it's a rather common phenomenon in various circles...
    There are bad books about Qabalah, in the same way that there are bad books about Alchemy, bad books about Gnosticism and bad books about Quantum Physics.
    In my own case, as I've said, I had the chance of speaking for some 6 hours with a Rabbi who studied Qabalah for 50 years (I am not even 50 years old) and the conversation was very interesting for both of us... and I don't remember any disagreement between us (the only strange thing for him was that I was not a Rabbi and found it odd that someone like me was interested in Philo and in Qabalah).

    Other than that, everyone who studies Qabalah in a serious way drinks from the SAME sources (Sepher Yetzirah, Sepher Bahir, Zohar, the early Hekhalot corpus, Sepher Raziel HaMalakh, The Sword of Moses, etc, etc, etc)... and then some people likes Abulafia and others hate him (I like him)...

    The worthy authors don't translate the expressions, though transliterations are quite common due to the complexity of using Hebrew fonts... but saying מלכות and Malkuth is the same as long as you remember that its gematria is 496, which is reduced to 10.

    Alchemy is quite diverse (I've tried to read a text of Chinese alchemy and all I got was a headache), but Qabalah isn't.

    The BIG differences between more Christian oriented visions of Qabalah are not in the ignorance of the basis, but in giving interpretations to some things that a more jewish oriented Qabalah would not accept. As to give an example, it is typical in Hermetic texts, when the Luriatic פרצופים are discussed to identify the זְעֵיר אַנפִּין with Christ, whilst a Rabbi will probably not agree, because the idea of Christ does not make sense to him... and yet the זְעֵיר אַנפִּין means the same and has the same "functions". The "differences" are very similar to this example... and yet I see no difference, because it's the same thing.

    I am aware of the existence of books which are "Qabalah for dummies"... but they have the same value than any book that is "X thing for dummies". Don't expect to find something of worth there.

  7. #17
    I personally believe in the historical Yeshu who later the story of Christ was based upon. The Talmud makes almost no difference between the two stories, just a few minor differences regarding his "miraculous" birth. Yeshu claimed to be the son of God and a virgin but there are theories that this was his way of hiding the fact that his mother committed adultery with a roman soldier. But I do believe he led a secret society of sorts that was based off of Hermetic traditions and the knowledge of transmutation and other things. And of course the pisces symbolism of him bringing forth a new age is obvious, with early christian drawings having Jesus in the center of the zodiac with the disciples surrounding him.

    Check out this video, this guys youtube channel is based on him asking questions to people who live in the middle east regarding many issues including ancient topics, skip to 12 mins to see one of the more interesting things a modern Jew had to say about him.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCUxTFt8pB0

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    Questions:
    I missed this post!!! I had not seen it.... good questions and useful to clarify some issues. I feel that the honest answers can be controversial... but that's OK for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    How much (if any) of R+C Christian mysticism is based on the New Testament?
    That's a hard question (or long one to explain rather than hard).

    -The central figure of the tradition is clearly Christian Rosenkreuz, whose biography was explained is the 3 founding books (two manifestos and one novel). The biography was willingly written in a way that makes it willingly obvious that the character is 100% fictional. The early Rosicrucian texts show an absolute rejection for Religious fanaticism and giving the main role to a character that even a fool would notice that is fictional was probably part of that project.

    -His myth involves a pilgrimage that lead him to create an Order. In his mythic pilgrimage he studied with muslims, persians (zoroastrians) and jews. The tradition is clearly Christian, but in an explicit way accepts to be a Christian hybrid of many religions... and strongly rejecting religious prejudices against other religions (quite the opposite, it gives them a value, it makes them become part of the big "puzzle").

    -The manifestos have a very strong political tone and their main target is the Roman Catholic church, which is even taken as an enemy. Some other comments in the manifestos involve a criticism of the conquest of American continent and the injustices committed there just for greed.

    -The Bible is one of the books that the manifestos mention, but they claim that it contains scientific ideas denied by the church... the position of the manifestos is identical to the position of Galileo and his "two books" (the Bible and the "book of Nature" -i.e, Nature itself). The tone is certainly scientific (with a XVII century definition of science, something that didn't exclude alchemy, astrology and magic).

    -The four books mentioned in the manifestos in an explicit way are the Bible and 3 Books called respectively "M", "H", and "I" (about alchemy, magic and Astrology; Qabalah; and the Theurgy of the Order).

    -The Rosicrucian mysticism is 100% GNOSTIC... So the New Testament is NOT interpreted in a literal way... and the inner secrets, which are quite explicit in later texts like the "Secret Symbols" show a clear doctrine that would be considered the WORST heresy by any of the established Churches (Roman, Orthodox and Protestant). The nature of this "heresy" is very clear here:




    (Image taken from the "Secret Symbols"... describing 4 entities with an equal onthological status... 3 of them are explicitly written... no Church would ever accept this idea, which somehow changes the whole meaning of the Bible).

    -The "novel" doesn't mention the Bible or Jesus at all and only deals with Greek Pagan deities... especially Venus and Cupid.

    -The rite itself is strongly focused on the contact with a female entity: Venus-Sophia-Isis... just like the classical Gnosticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    What was the original language of the books compiling the New Testament? (gospels, epistles, etc...)
    Since I know you are not an ignorant, but quite the opposite, I assume this one is a rhetorical question... Koiné Greek, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    Did/do those who are mostly influenced by Christian Gnosticism also use the Qabala as an initiatory and/or operative system?
    YES and that's explicit even in the original manifestos. I would like to add that the True origins of Qabalah are to be found in Christian Gnosticism (to be precise, Marcosian Gnosticism). If you don't believe me, just read the Iraneous chapter on Marcus on "Against the Heresies" and the Sepher Yetzirah and you will find out that it's exactly the same thing.

    The Roman Conquest was a slap in the face to a lot of National Prides and several traditions "plagiarized" (I'm not using the word in a derogative sense, I love the texts I will talk about) the most neo-platonic side of Gnosticism, but giving them a "National Pride" sense. That's how Qabalah was created, that's how the Chaldean Oracles were invented, that's how Hermeticism was invented (it is impossible to read the Corpus Hermeticum and not notice that ONE of its messages is "we are Egyptians, we are better than the Greeks and the Romans").

    So Qabalah is, essentially, Gnostic (and strongly influenced by Christian Gnosticism -Marcosianism)... which is fine for me, no other of these traditions has gone as far as Qabalah did in preserving a knowledge that would otherwise be lost. Thus when I say "plagiarism" I do not mean it in a derogative at all... it's an adaptation of Gnostic ideas that was used to go deeper into the Jewish religion... but its Gnostic influence is so obvious that it can be used to understand any of the traditions I mentioned above.

    I.e, the "Secret Symbols" clearly propose a Gnostic Christian Theology... but they are impossible to understand without using the tools that Qabalah provides.

    The Rosicrucian tradition is, in that sense, very inclusive and strongly opposed to the idea of "we can't use X thing because it's not Christian"... the ideology is almost identical to the inclusive ideology of the 900 Thesis of Pico della Mirandola (a person I admire the most... and who mostly tried to show that the "truth" can be found in ANY religion and that none of them was "better" than the others... and that it was stupid to reject an idea just because it belongs to a Religion that is not "your Religion"... Pico mostly said: I am Christian, and all the other religions are as good as Christianity and I NEED them to understand my own ideas -and he did something lovely i his testament / last will... he had a HUGE book collection and gave it to a friend, but his Testament clarified that his books should be given to his friend to another person after his death and so on, but NEVER, NEVER, NEVER any of them should be donated or given to a Church).
    Last edited by Andro; 11-17-2016 at 02:36 PM. Reason: Quote fix.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Since I know you are not an ignorant, but quite the opposite, I assume this one is a rhetorical question... Koiné Greek, of course.
    Not entirely rhetorical as it turns out, because I learned a new word: Koiné

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