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Thread: The Rosemary Magisterie

  1. #1

    The Rosemary Magisterie

    Here is the final steps of Rosemary Magisterie
    The final distillation as the salts also come over



    The viscous liquid collecting in the nose of the retort



    The purified salts in a dish being heated to remove water of crystallisation so they can be added to the Rosemary oil in the retort.



    Steve Kalec has written a PDF which shows a lot of the method but leaves out a part towards the end. I shall stick my neck out here and say what I did.

    :- The hot salts added to the oil in the retort, the oil distilled but the temperature not further raised to distill the thick oil remaining with the salts.

    :- This done 3 times, after the final rotation this oil smelling of the salts set aside in an airtight flask. The thick oil that would require a much higher temperature remains with the salts in the retort.

    :- The alcohol that had been previously rectified and kept with potasium carbonate to keep as water free as possible is then added to the retort and distilled across. The temperature is raised towards the end the thicker liquid in the retort starts to distill across and also has thermal decomposition of material in the retort. This is when these 'volatised' salts come across.

    :- These two liquids added together 1:1 ratio and incubated until they are done.

    A lot has been made of this process and the 'volatisation' of salts. I do not see anything special or secret in this process, just basic lab method. If you boil liquid with salts in it some of the salts leave with the vapour, so this is nothing special.

  2. #2
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    Thank you for the tips.

    I would like to try this method without adding the salts and compare the results as to see if the salts are really being volatilized or if the "volatilized salts" are actually coming from the oil itself.

    Did you try to solve the resulting salts in water again? Do they mix with water?

  3. #3
    I soaked in cold water to try and clean the retort that had a black residue (including salts). This did not seem to dissolve anything. So I then tried soapy water no use, then bleach still no result. So it could be the residue salts are insoluble but it could be that the melange of burnt stuff which contains the salts is insoluble.

    BTW I stopped distilling on the final run when I began to smell burning, the whole final run of distilling over salts part required small increments of temperature increase to keep the white mist rising off the blackening matter in the retort and the gelatinous fluid collecting in the nose of the retort.

    So this method uses up a retort it would seem.

    The other thing that is perhaps usefull to add: The first three rotations distilling the oil left faint salt residue in the nose of the retort. The resultant oil smelled faintly of the salt mixed in with the Rosemary smell. This leads me to suspect that if there is water content in the oil it dissolves and brings across some of the salt. Also after the first three rotations of oil distilling, the volume of the salts in the retort was reduced by 15-20%.
    Last edited by Axismundi000; 03-17-2016 at 09:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    A lot has been made of this process and the 'volatisation' of salts. I do not see anything special or secret in this process, just basic lab method. If you boil liquid with salts in it some of the salts leave with the vapour, so this is nothing special.
    Curious. Isnt the 'trick'supposed to be in Sublimating the salts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    I soaked in cold water to try and clean the retort that had a black residue (including salts). This did not seem to dissolve anything. So I then tried soapy water no use, then bleach still no result. So it could be the residue salts are insoluble but it could be that the melange of burnt stuff which contains the salts is insoluble..
    Did you try soaking them overnight in vinegar?
    Art is Nature in the flask; Nature is a vial thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    I The first three rotations distilling the oil left faint salt residue in the nose of the retort.
    This is what I meant... if this salt residue dissolves in water or not... I don't understand if what you said that doesn't dissolve in water in the (probably burnt) residue at the bottom of the flask or the salts in the neck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiorionis View Post
    Did you try soaking them overnight in vinegar?
    When no solvent seems to work and you want to "save" a flask or a retort, an alternative that often works is doing a long calcination with a strong heat (though not as strong as to break the glass)... and turn your "sticky" residue into dry ashes that will be very easy to clean. At least I've had better experiences with this method than with vinegar, bleach or acetone (but I've had a bad experience too with cleaning by calcination -a plant stone that somehow became like glass and it was impossible to separate from the ceramic... but I think that the problem was that I used much more heat than I should have used).

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    Hi Axismundi000,

    Did you manage to separate the 'volatilized' salts from the liquid?

    If so, are they still water soluble? Or have they changed their properties?

    It's basically simple work to 'volatilize' potash by means of an oil, however some texts (such as 'Elixir Proprietatis') specify that this is not the 'way of the Adepts', who use different ways for salt 'volatilization' in order to achieve the often described as 'miraculous' effects of their elixirs.

    Here is one experiment with volatilized salt with a mixture of methods.

    First, the resulting volatilized salts from the 'Steve Calec' method, also with Rosemary oil:



    Then, after separating and treating with a different spirit, this new salt is clearly no longer potash.

    It is insoluble in water, but soluble in SVR and Di-Ethyl Ether.

    The image below shows the salt acquiring 'levity' and gradually climbing up the walls of the glass by itself, with no heat source or any other external 'mover'.


  7. #7
    i didn't think to soak the burnt matter in vinegar or use a high temperature to burn off the residue to clean the retort.

    The retort did have faint salt marks during the first 3 distillations but if steam distilled and separated Rosemary oil has any water in it this could be the reason. Salts did come over on the final distillation but just thinking about the simple chemistry of this some of the oil could have had saponification and this would have facilitated the distillation of some of the salts on the final distillation.

    The volume of solid material in the burnt residue at the end was less then half that at the beginning so the salts must be in the liquid in some form.

    Being a little blunt here I do not think there is a 'secret of the adepts' for this, it is basic chemistry and lab method.

    Edit: to clarify after the first 3 oil distillations the salt volume in the retort reduced by 15-20%, the final distillation starting with alcohol and steadily raising the temperature, the final solid residue about 40 - 45% volume of starting mass of salts in flask. I look askance at this whole method and the hushed awe expressed about it. All this stuff about the salt transmuting into a non-water soluble material. My personal view could be characterised by the fairytale when the boy in the town points and says "the emperor has no clothes".
    Last edited by Axismundi000; 03-18-2016 at 12:55 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiorionis View Post
    Curious. Isnt the 'trick'supposed to be in Sublimating the salts?

    .....
    I have deliberately left this thread alone for a short while so that I may give a measured response rather then a knee jerk retort.

    I know the difference between the chemistry view of sublimating and the Alchemical approach to sublimating, the essential difference between them. I have no problem clearly describing this if need be. Knowing this I find it personally heinous that people try to keep this secret but are charging money for services and Alchemy products as some who have posted a response here do. I agree totally with the late Jean Dubuis that charging money for Alchemy is to the do with the pursuit of 'lucre' and will cause problems and be not adequately spiritual for progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    All this stuff about the salt transmuting into a non-water soluble material. My personal view could be characterized by the fairy-tale when the boy in the town points and says "the emperor has no clothes".
    My final 'volatilized' salts (depicted above) were no longer water soluble.

    In another particular experiment, not even alcohol dissolved the sublimed salts, only Di-Ethyl Ether and their own Spirit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    I know the difference between the chemistry view of sublimating and the Alchemical approach to sublimating, the essential difference between them.
    I have no problem clearly describing this if need be.
    How do you view the difference between the chemical approach and the alchemical one?

  10. #10
    Whether or not a basic Spagyric method (Magisterie) actualy transmutes a salt is not at issue here, it does not need to be. Particularly as some material that is white after calcination is found to be insoluble in water during leaching. This same material could be what is left in the retort when the liquid soap which has the salts has distilled over.

    The Chemistry definition of sublimation is that a heated material changes from solid to gas without an intervening liquid state. The Alchemical view of sublimation is entirely different the example of cinnabar (Mercury sulphide) clearly illustrates. Add Mercury to sulphur you get a black Mercury sulphide, heat this to 350-400 centigrade it changes to red but DOES NOT become gaseous. A much higher temperature is required for that and it will be black again if collected on a cooler surface, the red cinnabar is the Alchemical sublimation, the black metacinnabar made at higher temp is from chemistry sublimation. So the crystal matrix is what has changed, for brevity I simply observe that in Alchemy crystal formations are considered spiritual 'magnets'. Alchemically, sublimation does not require the solid to gas transition which is the chemical definition for sublimation. A change of solid allotrope ( in chemistry terms) to produce a different crystalline formation is instead performed. This does not preclude the solid to gas transition, rather this change does not constitute the alchemical sublimation, the solid-gas transition is a chemistry definition.

    Too many people charge money for these so-called secrets in my opinion.
    Last edited by Axismundi000; 03-28-2016 at 09:57 PM.

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