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Thread: Is enlightenment a trap?

  1. #21
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    The 'fake self' nevertheless caries the 'true self' in it.
    Indeed. That is why we can all connect directly if we decide to go that far (although it is inevitable for those that do that, even if they decided it or not).

    Quote Originally Posted by JinRaTensei View Post
    I was trying to explain my former post because it was unclear in its synthax and you asked me what I meant.
    Ok.

    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dev View Post
    I was just having fun. Why so serious?
    Same reason you are having fun. Serious is my fun sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by dev View Post
    What came first: chicken or egg
    One never came, the other one always comes and goes.

    If you can't understand it without an explanation, you can't understand it with an explanation.
    ― Haruki Murakami
    Excellent. Saves me the effort.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    1. Again, it depends on which 'god' we're talking about.

    2. The 'truest' self IS the true/UN-Created 'god'/'Spirit'. The 'fake self' nevertheless caries the 'true self' in it.
    I think I understand. From now on I will use the expressions " VR god" and "Uncoded god" which I think will make it easier to understand what is meant.

    I was mostly referring to VR god up to thise point because "those practices which shall not be named" ^^ have no concept of uncoded reality and therefor god. Since they view this reality although "unreal" as the true and last stepping stone towards god which again would be just a more sophisticated illusion as far as I am understanding now.
    Last edited by Awani; 06-16-2016 at 10:22 PM. Reason: fix code

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by JinRaTensei View Post
    zoas23

    Lol sry somehow your post got overseen by me until now but it is indeed very informative and fitting to this subject...so much so that I can not even form any response or opinion about it now because that would just be reacting without reflecting.

    As far as I have grasped this comment until now he describes with "I Am" what I am looking for. ^^
    It seems, imo, to be the complete opposite of becoming "a whole" in god but becoming your truest self with god in you.

    The "I am" allthough completly removed from ego is still some version of "I" and "being" and therefor it is not becoming a eternal slave.At least to the point of understanding I have right now of this post.

    Thank you again zoas23!
    One of the most interesting parts of the post by Markos, which I simply quoted is:
    This truth must only be expressed by the occult gesture of placing upright index finger to closed lips, in the gesture of Silence.
    There's a tale I love, "The Purloined Letter" by Edgar Allan Poe. You probably know it.

    The cops need to find a letter that belongs to an important person, a politician who is probably the King of England if my memory serves me well. The contents of the letter are not disclosed in the tale, but it seems that it's a letter that this politician (or King) wrote to a lover and it would be a scandal if its content is disclosed to the general public. Well, that's only the "excuse" of the tale anyway...

    The thing is that a thief stole the letter and is blackmailing the "politician"... and the cops have searched for it in the whole of the house of the thief, they have looked in the strangest places possible... they investigated all the clothes of the thief... under the wooden floors, inside the furniture... and they can't find it. They don't know where else the thief could have hidden the letter.

    So they hire the private detective Dupin... and when they explain him the situation, they have this amazing dialogue:

    "And what is the difficulty now?" I asked. "Nothing more in the assassination way, I hope?"

    "Oh no; nothing of that nature. The fact is, the business is very simple indeed, and I make no doubt that we can manage it sufficiently well ourselves; but then I thought Dupin would like to hear the details of it, because it is so excessively odd."

    "Simple and odd," said Dupin.

    "Why, yes; and not exactly that, either. The fact is, we have all been a good deal puzzled because the affair is so simple, and yet baffles us altogether."

    "Perhaps it is the very simplicity of the thing which puts you at fault," said my friend.

    "What nonsense you do talk!" replied the Prefect, laughing heartily.

    "Perhaps the mystery is a little too plain," said Dupin.

    "Oh, good heavens! who ever heard of such an idea?"

    "A little too self-evident."
    By the end of the tale, after long explanations, the detective Dupin visits the house of the thief and as soon as he enters he sees a writing table with some letters of little relevance (probably taxes, spam letters, etc)... and the "special" letter was there too, the thief had simply put it in a very usual envelope and left it in the most obvious place and at plain sight. The cops had been unable to find it because it was located in a place that was "too self-evident"... it wasn't even "hidden". The situation was so simple that the cops could not find the solution (they assumed that it was "hidden", but it had been all the time in front of their eyes).

    The first lines of the Emerald Tablet, even without caring which translation you choose say mostly the same concept:

    Tis true without error, certain & most true.
    That which is below is like that which is above & that which is above is like that which is below to do the miracles of one only thing
    I liked it how Markos included a reference to this gesture, which I relate to the idea of Sub-Rosa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_rosa

    The wiki article says:
    The idea of Horus being linked to the rose probably arises from Greek and Roman cultural cross-transmission of myths from Egypt. Firstly, the rose's connotation of secrecy dates back also to Greek mythology. Aphrodite gave a rose to her son Eros, the god of love; he, in turn, gave it to Harpocrates, the god of silence and a Greek name for a form of Horus, to ensure that his mother's indiscretions (or those of the gods in general, in other accounts) were not disclosed.
    That's an exoteric explanation... but you can be like a Dupin and say that Isis/Venus gave the Rose to his son Eros (remember the role of Eros in Plato's symposium, specially in the words said by Socrates -i.e, his "Daimon")... and Eros gave it to Harpocrates (isn't this God representing mankind there?).

    The secret symbols of the rosicrucians contain this image:



    And Andro said:
    The 'truest' self IS the true/UN-Created 'god'/'Spirit'. The 'fake self' nevertheless carries the 'true self' in it.
    And Austin Spare said:
    I bring a sword that contains its own medicine: The sour milk that cureth the body. Prepare to meet God, the omnifarious believing,-Thyself the living truth. Die not to spare, but that the world may perish. Nature is more atrocious. Learning all things from Thee in the most sinister way for representation: from thy thought to become thereafter. Having suffered pleasure and pain, gladly dost thou deny the things of existence for freedom of desire-from this sorry mess of inequality-once so desired. And is fear of desire. The addition of the 'I' of a greater illusion. Desire is the conception I and induces Thou. There is neither thou nor I nor a third person-loosing this consciousness by unity of I and Self; there would be no limit to consciousness in sexuality. Isolation in ecstasy, the final inducement, is enough-But, procreate thou alone! Speak not to serve but to scoff. Hearest thou, heaven's loud guffaw? Directly the mouth opens it speaks righteousness. In the ecstatic laughter of men I hear their volition towards release. How can I speak that for which I have necessitated silence? Salvation shall be Unsay all things: and true, as is time, that speaketh all things. Of what use are hints or stage whispers? True wisdom cannot be expressed by articulate sounds. The language of fools-is words. In the labyrinth of the alphabet the truth is hidden. It is one thing repeated many times.
    I'm sorry to quote so many different things... but I think you are asking yourself:

    How can I transcend dualism without transcending dualism?

    "God" in "you" or "you" in "God"? If you manage to stop thinking in a dualistic way for a second, you'll see that the two options are the same option. It is not a matter of belief, but a matter of perception.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JinRaTensei View Post
    Since they view this reality although "unreal" as the true and last stepping stone towards god which again would be just a more sophisticated illusion as far as I am understanding now.
    Yes, but allegedly only. I mean no one here "know" really. But this way of thinking is the way that seems to make the most sense based on direct experience and philosophical ponderings.

    When you post a question (as you often do, and it is valid questions) we all answer it, but in the end our answers are meaningless. You have to find your own answer. Personally by trying to answer a question I understand my own thinking so that is very helpful for me... and why a forum is a good "thinking-tool".

    I just wanted to point out that don't assume anyone here, or elsewhere, knows what the fuck they are talking about. One persons direct experience can't translate to another.

    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  6. #26
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    Yesterday I had (one of many) "enlightening" experiences on a personal level, so objectivly it might just be coincidence.

    I am currently reading a deeply philosophical manga called "Vagabond" about the life of Japans most famous samurai, " Miyamoto Mushashi"

    I was reading a specific part where Mushashi fought his greatest battle, Mushashi vs 70 other skilled samurai, and won. He was hurt in the process and not sure if he ever could follow the path of the sword again. The following was said by "Takuan" a monk which acts as Mushashis vehicle for introspection in their conversations.

    " Maybe the heavens want you to put down your sword". This can be seen as a symbol for letting go anger, conflict or general "spiritual fire" with which I personally deal right now myself.
    As I was pondering about this line a fly landed on the table in front of me. I looked at the fly and without any compassion, since it was "just" a fly I picked up a knife which was also laying on the table and struck the fly. I did not kill the fly but cut off one of its wings and thereby rendering it unable to continue living.
    My strike was light and precise and the knife used was a good " higher grade" knife which I had been using for a year now without any damages to the knife.

    Strangely while striking the fly with this light but fast strike on a wood table the knife just broke in two. This should not be possible.
    I was instantly "hit by lightning" and "understood" the heavens want me to put down "my sword" or "fire".
    As I realized this I looked at the clock and the time was 3:33 pm.

    Maybe coincidence but I do not believe so. So somehow right than and there something changed inside of me and I was deeply ashamed of striking the fly.


    zoas23

    The cops need to find a letter that belongs to an important person, ...
    Strangely no matter how much I feel to express my opinion to this I somehow feel it is lacking and that somehow this is the excact same thing.
    It is so obvious and yet complex, right in front of my eyes and yet never in my sight.

    I can not say anything else than I think I understand or maybe I do not understand what you explicitly meant...but still I understand.

    I liked it how Markos included a reference to this gesture, which I relate to the idea of Sub-Rosa
    Allegorically this is exactly what I am feeling. The things I want to express are "hidden" by the nature of themselves without me wanting to hide them. I feel words can not unveil those "truths". Silence is maybe not just secrecy but also the most honest expression men can give sometimes.

    That's an exoteric explanation... but you can be like a Dupin and say that Isis/Venus gave the Rose to
    his
    son Eros
    Just out of curiosity since to my knowledge the archetypes Isis/Venus are mostly referred to as being female, although I assume they are like all "gods"
    androgynous. Was there a specific reason that you refer to them as "his" and not "her" or am I interpreting to much into this?

    I'm sorry to quote so many different things... but I think you are asking yourself:

    How can I transcend dualism without transcending dualism?
    Yes this hits the point quite well! To be more exact I am trying to find a path which is similarly "good" for me as for others and in "common" dualism this is not the case. I want to be free and kind, unrestrained by everthing except for my morals.

    dev


    When you post a question (as you often do, and it is valid questions) we all answer it, but in the end our answers are meaningless. You have to find your own answer. Personally by trying to answer a question I understand my own thinking so that is very helpful for me... and why a forum is a good "thinking-tool".

    I just wanted to point out that don't assume anyone here, or elsewhere, knows what the fuck they are talking about. One persons direct experience can't translate to another.
    Thank you for pointing this out! I do not wish to "justify" or rebuke so if this comes across as this it is simply to my inability to express it clearer.

    Even if I wanted I could not "assume" anything which is said by more experienced members as "my" truth, even if it comes across as just that often since this is the first time I express explicitly what my true standing is on this.
    I validate or falsify information given in this forum as one expression of many. I know there is no definitive answer to anything in a relative reality but I can still pick up puzzle pieces for my own "life picture" if I deem the experience/member as honest.

    If you dev would tell me that you encountered a tiger and it was fierce big and orange/black striped I would not assume that this is what all tigers must be like. Nor would I assume that if I encountered a tiger it had to be the same. But if I believe you, and obviously I do, I know that your experience is what a tiger could express itself like. So if I encounter an animal in my life which is lets say kind, big and striped black/white I would think maybe this could be "my tiger" although your tiger looks different. But by understanding your tiger I can understand my own tiger better or even be able to recognize it.
    Last edited by JinRaTensei; 06-18-2016 at 02:11 PM.

  7. #27
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    That story you told about the fly is a perfect example of, in my opinion, looking at the world with shamanistic eyes. Reading the code. Very nice. No comment necessary.

    Now you just got to implement what you learned from it. I expect in a short time you will be tested, and you will have an experience where you have a chance to put your new knowledge into practice.

    I have no doubt this will happen, but beware... the test usually appears in a way you least expect.

    Btw Mushashi is cool.

    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  8. #28
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    3+3+3=9

    9 in numerology is: humanitarian, tolerant, universal love, least judgemental etc.

    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  9. #29
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    Wow thanks dev this means a lot to me and I am not just saying this to be polite in any way!
    I "guessed" that such experiences could be part of the shamanic path but always put it off as "just" being me "talking" to the universe...why have I come to the understanding of "just" accepting such experiences as a granted insignificance in the first place o0.
    You saying this is an expression of the shamanic path which I truly want/need to walk is another "puzzle piece" which I "needed" right now and here and that without holding your words for the absolute.

    Now you just got to implement what you learned from it. I expect in a short time you will be tested, and you will have an experience where you have a chance to put your new knowledge into practice.

    I have no doubt this will happen, but beware... the test usually appears in a way you least expect
    .

    I am really looking forward to it and yet I also do not care in the sense that even if the test will not come it will not change the mindset I have right now...which probably already is part of the test.

    I also think I understand what you mean by in the way I least exspect the test to occur since only in this way it will truly test my "soul" and not my opinions I am "holding" on to. The things which are there without actively "holding" on to them are the things which are true expressions of yourself so a test which is easily recognizable is not a "true test" but rather something akin to a school exam, just a questioning of "learned" facts and not expression of your deeper self.

    Btw Mushashi is cool.
    This opinion makes you cool as well XD. I love eastern literature. It was the first kind of literature in my youth which showed me values which I personally saw much more resonating with how I wanted to be in those days contrary to western literature.

    3+3+3=9

    9 in numerology is: humanitarian, tolerant, universal love, least judgemental etc.
    This "fits the shoe" I am currently living perfectly and is thankful information for me. Since the sources I used to express numerology usually talk about sequences of 3 as an expression of the trinity of mind,soul and body. Or the unity of the divine with the "earthly"

    Your explanation gives, to me, a better and more "grounded " understanding of this.

    I assume for numerology you use sources/ ways of interpretation from the Kabbala ?

    PS: My spelling correction is still not working for no reason I can see, which strangely also forces me to be much more aware of the things I put out into the world...
    but still for others my misspellings is rather a burden than a test so no excuses and an honest apology XD

  10. #30
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    Well talking to the universe is what shamanism is about IMO.

    No particular source. Just from knowing the numbers. Used to be into numbers many years ago, not so much now, but I still count all numbers I encounter by habit... as well as read all signs backwards to see if I find subliminal messages. Two manic traits. LOL. Although it only takes a second.

    Lennon was obssesed with Love and #9 so he must have viewed 9 the same way. Of course I am sure there are many schools on the matter. But what I said before is how I see 9.

    Your spelling mistakes, if any, are minor. There are far worse cases.

    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

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