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Thread: Talisman Ritual

  1. #11
    Zoas23 my understanding at the time of writing the Talisman method was that the Pentagram rituals at least had been achieved by elixirmixer. I do not presume to tell other people what to do and I believe I made the dangers clear enough (rainbow urine, black tongue, post ritual mania and anxiety).

    If people ask me something I will tell them what I know.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Zoas23 my understanding at the time of writing the Talisman method was that the Pentagram rituals at least had been achieved by elixirmixer. I do not presume to tell other people what to do and I believe I made the dangers clear enough (rainbow urine, black tongue, post ritual mania and anxiety).

    If people ask me something I will tell them what I know.
    Did you see this question?
    Quote Originally Posted by elixirmixer View Post
    So... let me get this straight then, this talismanic magic is to harness the intellectual properties of saturn and place it in the flask??
    by reading your description, Axis, I get that you have a reasonable understanding of what you are doing... and magic is ALL about understanding what you are doing.

    A person who asks what is the Talisman for doesn't understand the concepts involved here. Thus I discourage the idea of inciting others to perform something they don't perfectly understand... for the result is often quite similar to this: http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showt...5386#post45386

    Hmmm... my girlfriend is an advanced black belt in several martial arts. She can break a solid piece of wood with a punch with her bare hands. If I try to do such thing, I won't break the wood, but my hand. There are no super powers involved (my girlfriend doesn't have any super-power, neither do I)... She simply knows a technique that takes years to master (a technique that I don't know). You can't ask a person who practiced kung fu for a year to break a 15 cm thick piece of wood with a punch, the obvious result is that you will only show him a way to break his hand... and it's not because the person is not "enlightened", it is simply a technique and nothing else. ANYONE can do it, but it takes time and the logical thing to do is to begin with simple things. Asking what the talisman would do is a clear sign that the person (ElixirMixer in this case) is not ready YET to do something like that... which doesn't mean that he may not do it in the future, but it's not a good idea at all to make someone perform something that he doesn't perfectly understand.

  3. #13
    A problem here is that a debate about a person could occur with them present but not seeming to participate so I will make my comments general to 'people'.

    The gist of what you are saying zoas23 is that in your opinion sometimes people are not 'ready'. This I feel is unbelievably arrogant as well as completely impractical.

    1. It is arrogant because you are judging that you are so spiritually advanced that you know on the basis of lines of text on a forum what spiritual maturity people may have..

    2. It is impractical because there is so much info out there on the occult from contacting Angels to the joy of Satan, the idea of controlling info for some kind of public safety is absurd.

    Within Hermetic stuff generally Alchemy is to an extent a remaining and fading bastion of this arrogant parochial occultism. The assertion is often made that you must have a teacher to progress in Alchemy. The same assertion was made before Israel Regardie, Aliester Crowley and Franz Bardon published magical methodology. As a relative newcomer to Alchemy I simply show my work and see what others choose to contribute. It is up to each individual for themselves to decide what they are 'ready' for in magic and I suspect also Alchemy because they are not discreet, separate disciplines, merely presented as such. We are all responsible for the consequences of our own actions. So if a person is shown wood chopping by a black belt and told this is a risky thing for a novice and then they try it and hurt themselves the responsibility lies with the novice because they were clearly warned. The only time this is not so is if a student - teacher relationship is formally established which I do not see occurring here, this is a general Alchemy discussion forum.

    The demarcation between Alchemy and Magic is artificial. As was once explained to me there is nothing like a spirit giving you a swift wack to the head to illustrate the reality of these matters.

    zoas23 I suspect you mean well however the potential for human folly is as great as it is for human inspiration. It is naive to think that by refusing to explain stuff you can control other people's actions for a positive outcome. This invariably leads to negative outcomes whereas if you explain and identify hazards they at least have a chance.
    Last edited by Axismundi000; 11-18-2016 at 08:24 AM. Reason: Pesky IPad predictive when speaking text.

  4. #14
    Zoas23 on a separate note what do you think of the GD Alchemical ritual by Francis King? Also the diagnostic method of evocation outlined in Z2 I have not seen that kind of thing elsewhere have you?

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Zoas23 on a separate note what do you think of the GD Alchemical ritual by Francis King?
    I don't really pay attention to authors that belong to the Stella Matutina or the Fraternity of the Inner Light... I strongly prefer other branches of the same Order. To be honest, I've only read a book by Francis King and I didn't like it at all. They are *simplified* versions of the GD (that's MY opinion).
    A classical GD text I like about alchemy is "The Secret Fire" by Langford Garstin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Also the diagnostic method of evocation outlined in Z2 I have not seen that kind of thing elsewhere have you?
    It's very good and it has a strong influence of the original Elus CoŽn rite (I emphasize the word "original", for I have seen incredibly weird versions of the rite that involve things which are absolutely foreign to it -i.e, versions of the Elus CoŽn rite that use the Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram... which has absolutely no place there and makes no sense in that context).
    I like the original GD, the Alpha Omega of Samuel & Moina Mathers in Paris... and of the "later branches", I like the Order of the Cubic Stone... I also have some appreciation for SOME of the ways of Waite.

    Several things of the R.R. et A.C. have a strong influence of the Elus CoŽn rite, the Z2 evocation is one of them... the combination of the symbols in the 6=5 grade is also strongly influenced by the Elus CoŽn ways (though I never saw anyone publishing the combination ceremony; a.k.a. "the dance of the symbols").

  6. #16
    I have English and Welsh but regrettably not French so unless you choose to explain more about this corpus of material zoas23 I will remain a uninformed. I will contribute something here which may be interesting.

    With the Francis Alchemical Magic-Alchemy ritual sequence we did: When I evoked the elemental of the materia I observed the peacocks tale effect which I assumed was due to Alchemical change occurring in the materia. Bearing in mind that from completion, after about 2 weeks the final product simply reverted to just basic salt I wonder if I was observing something else. Although I do not usually have a rainbow effect when doing evocation this could be because I dont usually simply evoke the elemental of a piece of physical matter. So it could have been some kind of astral rainbow effect in part at least rather then the peacocks tail.
    Last edited by Axismundi000; 11-18-2016 at 02:28 PM. Reason: Typos

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    A problem here is that a debate about a person could occur with them present but not seeming to participate so I will make my comments general to 'people'.

    The gist of what you are saying zoas23 is that in your opinion sometimes people are not 'ready'. This I feel is unbelievably arrogant as well as completely impractical.

    1. It is arrogant because you are judging that you are so spiritually advanced that you know on the basis of lines of text on a forum what spiritual maturity people may have..
    I am not "spiritually advanced", it's simply common sense... a person who asks what a Talisman is for is obviously not read for a planetary talisman. I talked about TECHNIQUE, not about a "spiritual evolution".

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    2. It is impractical because there is so much info out there on the occult from contacting Angels to the joy of Satan, the idea of controlling info for some kind of public safety is absurd.
    There is also a lot of info on Kung Fu... my girlfriend (advanced black belt in Kung Fu and several other martial arts) can break a thick piece of wood with her hands and I can find (probably, I am assuming) all the information about the technique of how to do it. I never practiced Kung Fu in my life... and it's a matter of common sense to know that I do not have the technique to do such thing and it's not because I'm not "evolved" and my girlfriend is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Within Hermetic stuff generally Alchemy is to an extent a remaining and fading bastion of this arrogant parochial occultism. The assertion is often made that you must have a teacher to progress in Alchemy. The same assertion was made before Israel Regardie, Aliester Crowley and Franz Bardon published magical methodology.
    Go back to the idea of my girlfriend being able to break a piece of wood and the idea that I can't and explain me what's "patriarchal" about such thing.
    Regardie, Crowley and Bardon did nothing new.... The Greek Magical Papyri are 1600 years old.... Agrippa published his books some 600 years ago... etc... etc.

    I have no arrogance, I simply say that ANY subject that involves dangers should be practiced "step by step" and there's nothing mystical about it. Thus I prefer to talk about Karate of being an airplane pilot (I would not try to ride and airplane and see what happens if I have no idea of what I am doing, and I honestly have no idea about how to pilot an airplane... thus my chances of crashing against the ground are somehow high). LOL... Maybe it's arrogant to assume that I have this conception of magic as being related to have "super-powers", an idea that I absolutely reject (it belongs to Harry Potter, not to the actual practice as it is).

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    .......
    Regardie, Crowley and Bardon did nothing new.... The Greek Magical Papyri are 1600 years old.... Agrippa published his books some 600 years ago... etc... etc. .......
    There is a lot of material here that you have kindly posted zoas23 and worth reading. I am focussing on this small part because it is the one part of your post I can clearly disagree with in a clear unequivocal manner. Whilst what you say here is arguable with regard to GD material you are completely wrong most definately with respect to Bardon's material and to a large degree wrong with regard to Crowley's magical writings. Crowley integrated eastern yogic practices to run in tandem with ritual work. The methods and Sanskrit terminology Crowley uses are nowhere to be found in in Agrippa, or any greaco-Egyptian, demotic or Aramaic manuscripts/papyri I have heard about or read translations of. My wife has a divinity degree and she is unaware of any yogic stuff in such material including Akkadian (I didn't know she could read that, apparently she's a bit rusty though). zoas23 if you have found such references do please identify them to me. With regard to Bardon's material whilst he more or less ascribes to aggrippas elemental scheme the exercises and methods he gives are totally different to any western ceremonial magic or Greek papyri I am aware of so again please identify any similarities you know of because I do not.

    The only eastern style stuff in what could be called western Hermeticism that I am aware of is the walewski manuscript which can be found on scribd.

    So to summarise zoas23. Your assertion that Crowley and Bardon's material is nothing new and Greek papyri contain the same stuff or Agrippa shows it is totally wrong. Crowley's magical writings work magic and yoga in tandem, Bardon completely synthesises the two together and is un-paralleled in its quality of content. They have both published bodies of innovative and/or original magical methodology which are entirely missing from Agrippa or Greek papyri, or indeed any grimiores that I am familiar with.

  9. #19
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    O.K... we are somehow having the same discussion in public and in private.
    As I clarified to you, I am not restricted to the Golden Dawn and I do not suggest anyone to practice a single system (but SEVERAL).

    The "yoga" practices are also part of the corpus of the GD, though the sexual practices of Crowley are not... and, to be honest, I strongly disagree with them (this is not an ethical statement, I have no problems with sex and I am not ascetic). The problem that Crowley has was inherited by him from Kellner and Reuss and it's the same problem that I see in ElixirMixer (sexual diversity thread) about the males being "the sun" and the females being "the moon". I don't agree with the concepts (theory) of the IX* of the O.T.O. at all... and all this weird worship of the male phallus and the females being the recipient of the very sacred and godly males. The whole "Amrita" theory is something I strongly disagree with.

    As for Crowley himself... I don't like "prophets" or currents which are based on worshipping a person (and Liber AL clearly states that Crowley is the Prophet).

    Other than that, the fact that I have this problems with Crowley and Thelema doesn't mean that I have a problem with the fact that you like him, that's fine... I simply say that it's not a current that I would follow, not a suggestion about what YOU should do.

    A debate about which current is better.... I won't get into it. It's one of those debates that mostly end up in a:
    -YES!
    -NO!
    -YES!
    -NO!

    ... so we can save time and skip that very very very boring debate.

    As for the idea of "instructors", I honestly think it is better that way. I never knew a Kung Fu practitioner who taught was a "self-made" practitioner. This doesn't necessarily mean getting involved in an Order (though it's the most simple way). I like to demystify magic... and simple describe it as a "technique". Thus I can use a metaphor and state that my GF is very good in several martial arts and that if I wanted to learn a martial art, I can go to a classical martial arts school/gym/dojo/whatever... or ask her to teach me without the need of being involved with a "Kung Fu Order". Though I don't think I would go far by reading books about Tae-Kwon-Do and learning the technique from books (to be honest, I don't know ANYONE who did it that way)... and it's not because the instructor has any kind of "super-powers", but simply because he knows the technique, he can see if any of your movements is "wrong" and may damage you, etc.

    But that's MY opinion and I have no problem is you have a different opinion... I do not pretend to be the owner of the ultimate truth.

    Other than that, Crowley did disasters with the Eastern ideas (I used to have an Asian girlfriend, with an Asian culture, who used to laugh at the absolute misunderstaning of Crowley about the I-Ching).

    When it comes to modern authors with "revolutionary" ideas, someone I appreciate a lot is Austin Spare (I suggest you to read his letters with K. Grant about Crowley and why he found him quite laughable).

    Finally, I don't think there's any need to debate... we can have different ideas and that's fine... and this is the kind of debate that leads nowhere.

    Going back to the original post, I would never suggest anyone to do a planetary Talisman before even understanding what a Talisman is... and this is not related to any kind of "spiritual evolution", but to the idea that most technical procedures (magic, kung-fu, being an airplane pilot, scuba diving, ballet dancing, etc) involve a "step by step" logic. There is nothing "spiritual" about this idea. I actually prefer to completely demystify the idea of what magic is and simply describe it as a "technique" which can be compared to any other technique like scuba-diving or whatever you prefer.

  10. #20
    zoas23 apart from anything else I think it is just not practical to advise people what they should do or if they are 'ready'. There is so much info and technique freely available on line and in paperback print that it simply doesn't matter. The talisman outline I provided is available in numerous variations perhaps I was a little more usefully concise, nothing more. Similarly it doesn't really matter what you or I think about each other's praxis or preferred paradigm. If yours works for you zoas23 I am glad.

    If you haven't looked at Francis King's Alchemical Ritual in complete GD it's only two pages long, I would recommend having a read of it. Tell me what you think.

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