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Thread: Vinegar distillation

  1. #11
    I see three big advantages with your suggestion zO K. Firstly much lower equipment cost. Secondly less attention required to the distillation, I could go downstairs and play some Halo maybe. Thirdly I could be distilling something else with my modern push to fit equipment.

    Appreciated.

  2. #12
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    Nice work so far.

    However, my only criticism is that I've been able to consistently, through freeze-distillation, concentrate my acetic acid to around 80%

    It takes about a week total.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    I think the maximum you can get through freezing is about 56%.
    Art is Nature in the flask; Nature is a vial thing.

  3. #13
    That is very interesting could you please identify how you get above 56% which is the theoretical maximum quoted on-line. Do you just freeze it for ages in a good freezer?

    Getting 80% concentration would reduce the amount of distillation required and be very useful.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    That is very interesting could you please identify how you get above 56% which is the theoretical maximum quoted on-line. Do you just freeze it for ages in a good freezer?

    Getting 80% concentration would reduce the amount of distillation required and be very useful.
    I don't think it is possible to reach such concentrations by freezing alone under normal atmospheric conditions:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=ax...ntrate&f=false

    "The highest concentration attained in practice by freezing vinegar under atmospheric conditions is 26% of acetic acid." (page 210)

    Another problem to consider is that even distilled vinegar nowadays is contaminated with solid additives (not sure why do manufacturers feel the need to do this, it's not like vinegar "spoils", there should be no need to add preservatives to it):

    http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showt...4721#post34721

    Getting rid of these solid additives would help to dispense with the need to re-distill the distilled vinegar. Soluble lead salts (like lead acetate, for example), which readily combines with these additives and forms a white precipitate, are one possible solution. If you intend to use the vinegar for experiments involving lead, or where the presence of small amounts of lead salts are not a problem, then no further work is needed on the commercial distilled vinegar. You can simply concentrate it up to about 26% by freezing and then treat it with a solution of a soluble lead salt until no more precipitate forms and then filter the resulting vinegar.

    But if you want to get rid of the remaining lead salt, I've been thinking that maybe it should be possible to do this by treating the lead-contaminated vinegar with hydrogen sulfide gas, until no more black lead sulfide precipitate forms. Then you filter the vinegar and get rid of whatever traces of hydrogen sulfide gas might remain dissolved in the vinegar by warming it for an hour or two. Needs to be tested. If it works, it would give you a more concentrated vinegar (about 26%, as opposed to the usual 5 to 9% concentration of commercial distilled vinegars) without any solid additives, and no re-distillation would be involved.

  5. #15
    So the 'evidence' indicated max 26% which means it would be 4 gallons to one pound of mineral if the vinegar is not distilled. If there's is a freezing technique to achieve 80% I would love to know how because it would massively reduce my preparation work for making metal acetates.

  6. #16
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    My math may be terrible.

    Store-bought distilled white vinegar is around 5% acetic acid. I usually start with 2 gallons (32 cups) which reduces down to about 3 cups. The distillate being around 10% of the original volume by freezing.

    At this point my calculations are more guesswork than anything. I evaporate this down until a nice golden colour, but it never seems to reduce that much.
    Art is Nature in the flask; Nature is a vial thing.

  7. #17
    I misunderstood, yes freeze then evaporate, then maybe vacuum distil to get up near 100%, thanks for the practical info.

  8. #18
    So I wonder if a simple glass retort would serve to sweat off the water from vinegar if say the nose was angled downwards I bit more than usual. I still fancy getting an alembic just thinking about simplicity, an alembic is flask and head air cooled, a retort is one piece of glassware air cooled. A retort doesn't have the vapours expanding and cooling but is that necassary for the purpose of removing water from vinegar.

    Also most stuff about vinegar rectification usually talks about distilling it when in fact the liquid you want is left behind in the flask. Either there are conflicting methods or this idea of vegetable life is entirely discounted by some artists.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    So I wonder if a simple glass retort would serve to sweat off the water from vinegar if say the nose was angled downwards I bit more than usual. I still fancy getting an alembic just thinking about simplicity, an alembic is flask and head air cooled, a retort is one piece of glassware air cooled. A retort doesn't have the vapours expanding and cooling but is that necassary for the purpose of removing water from vinegar.

    Also most stuff about vinegar rectification usually talks about distilling it when in fact the liquid you want is left behind in the flask. Either there are conflicting methods or this idea of vegetable life is entirely discounted by some artists.
    Retorts are inefficient for sweat distillation because the nose opening is narrow. The vapors get bottlenecked and the vapor pressure on the liquid surface in the retort remains high not conducive to sweating or evaporative distillation. You want wide openings between the reaction flask and the receiver. I recommend 55/50 joints for an alembic. The most efficient way to sweat distill is to use a horizontal train with the receiver at least twice the volume of the boiling flask. Pack the receiver in ice for the fastest sweat distillation.

    The vinegar is left behind in the reaction flask during a sweat distillation of crude vinegar. Very few understand what is the vegetable life and fewer still have actually manipulated it. Spagyrics is not the same as alchemy in the labs.

    Spagyrical operations typically burn away the vegetable life in volumes of smoke. Practioners think they have captured the plant sulfur when they isolate the essential oils, terpenoids, of the plant by steam distillation. They then compound the error in thinking by assuming the plant mercury is ethanol produced by fermentation. What they produce by those notions are apothecary medicines that can be quite therapeutic.

    Alchemical operations free the vegetable life from the plant by using elemental fire. Unlike the spagyrists we capture that smoke and purify it. For in it we find the vegetable life freed of its former congestions accumulated in the natural life of the plant. Our philosophical vinegar is in that particle stream of smoke. We have many names for that smoke. Our philosophical wine is in that smoke. Our elemental water, air, and fire, are also in that smoke. Our mercury and sulfur are in that smoke. From this humble beginning of our fiery afterbirth from the burn we purify and concentrate then combine in thousands of ways producing living Quintessences, Stones, some like amber others like crystals. These do not have the same effect as the spagyric apothecary medicines.

    From our smoke we can cultivate powerful menstrums that build upon the vegetable life we have freed and reshaped into our philosophical purposes. We can then infuse that life into inorganic matters and there are no limits.

  10. #20
    The practical observation of a wide neck is very useful, thank you.

    The capturing of various 'smokes' is certainly something I appreciate and intend to explore much more deeply. Personally I ascribe to the idea of vegetable life but even if I am wrong it makes no difference if I just gently evaporate to obtain concentrated vinegar, I still have the acetic acid either way. I have about 25 litres of home made wine souring to vinegar at present so I will have some evaporation to do in the near future. With a gallon of concentrated vinegar to a 1lb of mineral I have a lot more wine to make and sour to vinegar. I will do a trial run with a small amount whilst I am still primarily making vinegar to asses Lab set-up.

    So any useful comments as I test out and post will be appreciated.

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