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Thread: Secret Societies and Emotions (derailed)

  1. #41
    Zoas23 you ask if my offer of informal advice about practicing magic is because I suffer from messianic delusion or because I can actually do it. You quote from the bible which of course is largely about a messiah, according to millions THE MESSIAH.

    In Bardon's material Jesus is recognised as a member of the brotherhood of light but the nicene creed is not adhered to. Zoas23 in previous posts when you have felt upset with me you have angrily informed me that I will never achieve success in Alchemy because of various attitudes you specify I have. Therefore the following biblical quote is useful and clearly appropriate for my response.

    "Give not that which is Holy to the dogs, neither cast. Ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them. Under their feet, and turn again and rend you". Matthew 7-6

    I shall follow this sound advice from a messiah so know Zoas23 that I am no longer prepared to offer any advice about magic to you. You state that you have been/are in several Magickal groups. From people I know it takes more than a year of work and effort to achieve acceptance criteria and become a beginner member of a magical group. So you have presumably wasted 6-7 years on this which must be a dissapointing pursuit otherwise you would not have joined so many. Bardon's material is as I mention designed for solo work this may be useful to you having tried with so many magical groups.

    Finally I would make the simple observation that you can work with Bardon's stuff independently of anyone so whether or not I am genuine or suffering from messianic delusion does not matter to your progress, you do not need me for progress with Bardon's material. All you need to progress magically with Franz Bardon's magical training is persistence. His works are readily available:

    Initiation into Hermetics
    The Practice of Magical Evocation
    The Key to the True Quabbalah

    Good luck Zoas23.
    Last edited by Axismundi000; 03-24-2017 at 09:30 AM. Reason: Typos

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Zoas23 you ask if my offer of informal advice about practicing magic is because I suffer from messianic delusion or because I can actually do it. You quote from the bible which of course is largely about a messiah, according to millions THE MESSIAH.
    LOL... so quoting the Bible is a messianic complex?
    I am mostly quite attached to classical Gnosticism (specially Valentinean)... so my understanding of the sense of "messiah" is not really what most people understands when that word is used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    In Bardon's material Jesus is recognised as a member of the brotherhood of light but the nicene creed is not adhered to.
    I do not adhere to the Nicene Creed either... though I already said that my tendencies are mostly based on classical gnosticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Zoas23 in previous posts when you have felt upset with me you have angrily informed me that I will never achieve success in Alchemy because of various attitudes you specify I have.
    Ah... yeah, that was when I got upset because you said that I was a "Nazi" (because I suggested that instead of repeating the same thing again and again to JDP in a specific thread, you could find the points in which you both agree... but the idea sounded "Nazi" to you.. so you decided to insult me... I also told you in private that we should find an agreement, but you simply replied to me quoting no other than Aleister Crowley and his "As brothers fight ye" -LOL... Crowley, talking about megalomaniacs with a messianic complex!).
    I can't deny that his understanding of alchemy is fantastic: it's simply a metaphor for eating sperm and menses and shit... LOL, no thanks, I'm not into eating shit. Nor I think that such thing has any worth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    in following this sound advice from a messiah know that I am no longer prepared to offer any advice about magic to you Zoas23.
    I kindly thanked you for your offer, which I rejected. So you are not giving me something I already told you that I do not want? LOL... OK.
    If you want the truth, I have an aversion for ALL the magical systems which are based on the "reputation" of a person... I do not care if it's Crowley, Bardon, Krumm-Heller, Ron Hubbard or Samael Aun Weor...

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    You state that you have/are in several Magickal groups. From people I know it takes more than a year of work and effort to achieve acceptance criteria and become a beginner member of a magical group. So you have presumably wasted 6-7 years on this which must be a dissapointing pursuit otherwise you would not have joined so many.
    I love to participate in several of them. I actually discourage people to participate in just ONE. I prefer to have SEVERAL points of view. I deeply dislike those who are like "hooligans" of ONE Order.
    As for the times that it takes to be accepted... one year is the average... though in some others it's around 3 years... and in some others it's "automatic", but some requisites of previous experiences in other Orders are needed and it's a sine qua non.
    Other than that, the "one year of work" (or around 3 years in a few Orders) is not what you think... It is simply learning the basics and there isn't a BIG difference in what happens during the "probationer" time and what happens next. It is not a waste of time at all, but you have the right to think whatever you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Bardon's material is as I mention designed for solo work this may be useful to you having tried with so many magical groups.
    Finally I would make the simple observation that you can work with Bardon's stuff independently of anyone so whether or not I am genuine or suffering from messianic delusion does matter to your progress you do not need me for progress with Bardon's material. All you need to progress magically with Franz Bardon's magical training is persistence.
    This is exactly WHY I do not follow systems which are based on the ideas of a person... you end up writing "Bardon" 4 times in 3 sentences.
    Bardon, Bardon, Bardon, Bardon, Bardon, Bardon, Bardon, Bardon, Bardon, Bardon... OK... I guess I need to write his name a few more thousand times as a true sign of persistence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Good luck Zoas23.
    I am already lucky, but thank you.
    Once your tantrum is over, we can speak respectfully again.

    You know what's NICE about Orders? That you have to interact with persons with incredibly different ideas and personalities and you end up understanding that you do not need to "fight", that you can learn from someone who thinks different (actually, you can ONLY learn from someone who thinks different)... So you end up giving up this shitty need of destroying those who do not agree with you. As to be clear, that's bullshit for me and I do not enjoy it. Unlike Crowley, Crowley, Crowley, Crowley, Crowley, Crowley, Crowley, I do not like eating shit.

    I do not like aggressive debates either... and "as brother's fight ye" is just a silly idea that a lunatic wrote when he thought that he was the true messiah.

  3. #43
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    Yes, he likes to take a certain name, word combination or concept and repeat it ad nauseam, regardless of how the topic is developing.

    I have taken the time to reply to most of his points with either a different perspective or a counter-argument, but my arguments were almost never directly addressed.

    Instead, all I got is the 'teddy bear mantra' over and over again, which started out as not having enough parental contact (wrong!), then being a fanatic counter-culture narcissist, supplemented with 'mania', 'denial' and 'anger' and eventually escalating into me having a full-blown 'messiah complex', probably because he seems to have a personal issue with me having the NERVE to charge for practicing my hard-earned skills.

    Sic Transit Axis Mundi...

    ____________________

    Now, regarding 'messiahs'...

    So, this one guy, 2000+ years ago, doesn't get enough parental contact, is also probably gay/queer (making him feel feel even more like an outcast), eventually causing him to become a fanatic and a narcissist and eventually create & lead a counterculture centered around his own messianic complex... and look where we are today... We can't say it doesn't fit a certain symptomatic progression

    Sounds like a textbook case according to Axis Mundi... And BTW, projecting 'messianic complexes' on other people while using a name such as 'Axis Mundi' (axis of the world, around which the whole world revolves, etc) - is in itself at least a little amusing.

    Now 'seriously'...

    'Christ' is IMO a multi-layered allegory/symbol for many things, including the Sun, and also possibly the Philosopher's Stone (i.e. Spirit 'made flesh' or Spirit 'corporified'). Whether he existed physically or not, I think is less relevant. Some researchers even claim that christianity was engineered by the Romans, possibly to create a sort of 'controlled opposition' and perpetuate the dialectic... it could have started as a grassroots counterculture, to be later infiltrated, hijacked and incorporated, as I wrote before on this thread but no one really paid attention, being to busy repeating the 'teddy bear mantra'...

    There are people who saw a messianic Avatar in Hitler.

    Elvis was also not spared from this, including in his own mind (according to reports from people who were close to him).

    Maybe 'Axis Mundi' is right, and it was the damn teddy bear all along...



    Also, I regret to inform that while I may have other 'issues' or 'challenges', a 'messianic complex' is not one of them.

    But then again, it's irrelevant if I confirm it or deny it - from now on, I will be forever stuck in the "Brian Loop"

  4. #44
    It would seem that from the above I am found to be rather naughty. As I have said before this is just a forum and I'm fine with people disagreeing with my theories. Perhaps people should try to understand that a theory on a forum is just that. It would have been nice to have had fuller engagement rather then relentless ad homini and anger. The reason I repeat a point is because to me it seems not addressed, especially as usually I offer further argument. Perhaps I shall stick to the practical stuff on this forum and leave all you 'tender flowers' to your musings.

    Zoas23 I note after the date of my pm to you in which I offered informal advice I received no actual decline polite or otherwise. Obviously I am not prepared to provide you any magical input now but it does seem rather immature that first you say I offered you magical training (I did not) and second you declined the offer of training or informal advice ( you did not). I do not see a decline message in my PM inbox. I notice in your PM to me you did mention you would give Bardon a try and again I wish the best in your endeavours.
    Last edited by Axismundi000; 03-24-2017 at 11:28 AM. Reason: Checked PM s

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    I am found to be rather naughty.
    Yes, you're a very naughty boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    The reason I repeat a point is because to me it seems not addressed, especially as usually I offer further argument.
    Your points WERE addressed, often one by one between quotes, with counter-arguments, which you chose to ignore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Perhaps I shall stick to the practical stuff on this forum and leave all you 'tender flowers' to your musings.

    "All you tender flowers"
    ... You big tough macho man, you... Adorable!

    But worry not, all god's children are welcome, and in his garden there are many mansions.

    Let me offer you a brotherly e-hug and part ways on this 'road to nowhere' thread


  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    It would seem that from the above I am found to be rather naughty. As I have said before this is just a forum and I'm fine with people disagreeing with my theories. Perhaps people should try to understand that a theory on a forum is just that. It would have been nice to have had fuller engagement rather then relentless ad homini and anger. The reason I repeat a point is because to me it seems not addressed, especially as usually I offer further argument. Perhaps I shall stick to the practical stuff on this forum and leave all you 'tender flowers' to your musings.
    Leaving tender flowers... is that how your mind translates the concept of being respectful, nice, kind, etc? If that's how you understand it, then yeah... leave tender flowers (I am obviously saying it because I am probably a "nazi", of course).

    You point was not ONLY addressed, but also EXPANDED with the inclusion of Benjamin, Marcuse, etc (yes, let's bring the whole school of Frankfurt and Reich). I told you it's a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, though it is easy to understand why they made it.... it was an inductive reasoning because during their lives and their times the line between "left" and "right" was by far more clear... and it's probably true that during their times the "leftists" were by far more open minded sexually than the right-wingers.

    And if you want to go FURTHER, I would bring to the table Foucault's "History of Sexuality", which openly criticizes the ideas of the School of Frankfurt and specially the psychological ideas of W. Reich... by stating that rather than a "sexual repression", we have had a long history of enthusiastically talking about sex and not a history of "repressing it". The Marxist theory of a dialectical conflict is also thrown to the trash can there and replaced by the idea that there is not a class that oppresses and a class that is oppressed, but that in our societies power is atomized.

    If you payed some attention to the last presidential elections of the USA, you probably noticed how it became usual to discuss the sexuality of Donald and Hillary... with the idea that Donald probably has lots of sex with his wife, whilst Hillary can't satisfy her husband and thus he cheated on her... and how the sexuality of the two candidates who had chances to win was brought into the public debate (and rumors that maybe the wife of Donald had been a prostitute, countered by rumors that maybe Hillary is lesbian, etc)... or the infamous "Milo" with his xenophobic and racist views, which confused even the right wingers who have similar ideas because the ideas of the School of Frankfurt and Reich became acceptable to our common sense, even if they are wrong (i.e, his free expression of a non traditional sexuality does not mean that he is a libertarian, non racist, non xenophobic, etc... this came as a surprise to lots of persons... Adorno and Reich would be scratching their heads).

    I do not see how your point was NOT addressed (though I can see how you decided to ignore all these ideas and simply repeat the same again and again... even talking an absurd wild guess about my childhood and the childhood of Andro).

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Zoas23 I note after the date of my pm to you in which I offered informal advice I received no actual decline polite or otherwise. Obviously I am not prepared to provide you any magical input now but it does seem rather immature that first you say I offered you magical training (I did not) and second you declined the offer of training or informal advice ( you did not). I do not see a decline message in my PM inbox. I notice in your PM to me you did mention you would give Bardon a try and again I wish the best in your endeavours.
    My dear... you wrote to me obsessively about Bardon. It is OK to bring it here because there is nothing personal, though I am deleting a part of the second PM which can be personal:

    Thelema is more of a philosophy than a Religion though some treat it in the way you describe. To me GD is an old aeon superseded magical formula, there are technical methods which are of value. Crowley's contribution for non-Thelemites is his integration of Yoga and Magic, something that in my view Franz Bardon does even more effectively.
    I'm glad you find these organisations constructive zoas23. Regrettably I have only encountered the not useful examples of magical orders which could perhaps be in part due to my own temperament. If you have not looked at Bardon's stuff I would recommend them as interesting reading. Personally I consider his material to be excellent and much of my current work is Bardon stuff. (...). Bardon's material is very different to GD stuff, much less symbolism.
    I am not actually interested in "much less symbolism". I am not interested in Crowley's Arcana of eating shit either... I am 100% not interested in "sex magic"... LOL, I'm more into a romantic sexuality.
    (I am not a hooligan of the Golden Dawn, though I'd say that it's quite good).

    And saying that I will give him a try was a polite way of rejecting the offer without being harsh. I understood that he is important for you... so I simply said something along the lines of "yes, sure, I will read him with care in the future"... AFTER having explained you that I am not really interested, but you were so insistent that I had to politely say that I will read him with care in the future... as to avoid offending you by saying AGAIN that I'm not interested).

    "Such a little thing
    a fumbling politeness
    the difference it saved me"



    "Most people keep their brains between their legs... so, don't!".

    So, yeah, absolutely... show me your "tender flowers", even in disagreement, instead of the nonsense of "as brothers fight ye".

    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    But worry not, all god's children are welcome, and in his garden there are many mansions.
    Let me offer you a brotherly e-hug and part ways on this 'road to nowhere' thread
    We're on a road to nowhere
    We're on a road to nowhere
    We're on a road to nowhere

    There's a city in my mind
    Come along and take that ride
    And it's alright, baby, it's all right
    And it's very far away
    But it's growing day by day and it's all right
    Baby, it's all right
    Would you like to come along
    You can help me sing the song
    And it's all right, baby, it's all right
    They can tell you what to do
    But they'll make a fool of you
    And it's all right, baby, it's all right
    Last edited by Andro; 03-24-2017 at 10:12 PM. Reason: Quote fix.

  7. #47
    Whilst you and others disagree with my theory it seems to sting I think, remember it is just a theory.

    So first you say I offered to give you magical training but then agree it was informal magical advice. Then you say you declined my offer of advice about Bardon's praxis by saying that you would 'give him a try'. Hmmm.... well whatever. I think that from now on I have to assume that anything you write could well mean the opposite. So I see no actual practical reliable way to communicate with you because you could say a thing but mean the opposite, I shall leave you sitting at the top of your intricate, ornate, multimedia Tower of Babel with all the other apes of Thoth.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Whilst you and others disagree with my theory it seems to sting I think, remember it is just a theory.
    A sociological-psychological theory that can't explain the facts... which is what a sociological-psychological theory should do.
    I think I have explained you lots of my objections to such theory and why it's wrong (wrong in the sense that it is unable to explain the facts).
    You decided to ignore the objections... and simply repeat it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    So first you say I offered to give you magical training but then agree it was informal magical advice.
    Yes, I absolutely agree with the fact that you offered to give me an informal magical advice about the system of Franz Bardon... So I do not see a BIG difference. So your offer leads to 2 logical possibilities:

    a) You are a lunatic who offers something that you are not qualified to give.
    b) You are qualified to give such advice and thus you kindly offer it.

    I do not know you quite well, but I'd say that "b)" is the case, which is not truly surprising for me... I can take a wild guess and assume that you have studied his system, that you have practiced his system, that you have arrived to results that you found satisfactory and you have enjoyed it and it was GOOD for you... so you wanted to offer what you know to other persons. Excellent, I have no problems with such thing.

    I explained you very clearly that I am ALREADY into several Orders with very different systems and that I was not really interested in Crowley or Thelema at all (which is the first system you talked to me about)... and then you brought the idea of Bardon and I told you that I'm OK with what I am ALREADY doing. You are so stubborn that I finally had to tell you that I will give him a try in the future.

    -Do you wanna watch Jim Carrey's "The Mask"?
    -No, not really... I am not really into that type of comedy.
    -But Carrey's "The Mask" is different... it's the best comedy ever!
    -O.K... but I honestly don't like that type of movies.
    -But you should see "The Mask"!!!
    -Oh... OK... Someday I'll watch it.

    I appreciate the kind offer you gave me, but I am not interested, not I ever was... Such thing was so complicated for you to understand that I finally felt that it was better to say that I will do it someday... If you didn't understand the subtext and the polite way of saying "OK, but that's not for me", then try to think why I ended up saying that someday I was going to give him a try when I never had such intention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Then you say you declined my offer of advice about Bardon's praxis by saying that you would 'give him a try'. Hmmm.... well whatever. I think that from now on I have to assume that anything you write could well mean the opposite. So I see no actual practical reliable way to communicate with you because you could say a thing but mean the opposite, I shall leave you sitting at the top of your intricate, ornate, multimedia Tower of Babel with all the other apes of Thoth.
    Oh... you mean the essay titled "RICHKER"... nice pun.
    There is an interesting story there... though it's more or less explicit in the essay.
    The work of multimedia art titled "RICHKER" was done by a friend who is a marvelous painter (a truly talented painter, I have several of his paintings in my walls). I admire him as an artist and he's also a good friend.
    So one day he showed me his latest creation: a multimedia work of art based on Kircher's Tower of Babel.
    He asked me what I thought. I watched it and I told him the truth: I don't like multimedia art and I didn't like the work at all. I truly dislike Multimedia Art...
    So he asked me something a bit strange, he asked me to write a review of this specific work... which I didn't like.

    I remembered how Joseph Beuys HATED the politics of North America and he was also disliked in North America (because he had been a German soldier during WWII... which does not mean that he was a "Nazi", the whole of his works are an alchemical allegory that openly criticizes Nazism and openly suggest a direct democracy that works quite similar to an organized and decentralized anarchism). So he decided to visit the USA for the first time to live with a Coyote, a totemic animal for the original inhabitants of North America. A more detailed explanation of the performance can be found here: https://www.wikiart.org/en/joseph-be...erica-likes-me

    His performance was called "I like America and America likes me". Probably the USA was the pace he hated the most and probably he was one of the most hated artists in America... So he thought: How can we get along? He decided to use a shamanic idea and pick this totemic animal that distrusts people and represented for him the most authentic American spirit and tried to found a way to get along with the Coyote living with him in a cage in the USA.

    RICHKER was something similar for me... I hated RICHKER and RICHKER hated me. I doubted that it had any kind of value (I do not mean "economical value", but "cultural value"), I wasn't sure if I could call such thing "art", I didn't think it made sense... and I forced myself to come to terms with RICHKER and find out why it was made and why it had a value and why it was interesting and why it was Art.

    I spent several days looking at RICHKER with distrust, LOL... I was a bit like the Coyote!
    I decided NOT to discuss the "meaning" of the work with its creator at all... I wanted to find its sense, value, meaning, etc by myself. All I was seeing was permutations of the Tower deconstructing itself in a senseless way.

    Then I began to relate it with ideas... the system of Markos the Gnostic and the Sepher Yetzirah: two early attempts at deciphering the meaning of our language (of course, the Tower of Babel is basically the myth that explains how our language HAD a divine sense but lost it... but it is also the myth that explains why we do not understand each other, why we do not get along).

    I remembered then how Llull created a logical system of permutations which he believed could restore the SENSE of the Divine... whilst Abulafia created his "prophetic Qabalah" based on permutations too as to arrive to the Divine.

    I thought of the experiments with language by Kircher (who was, after all, the inspiration of this work that my friend had created) and how he influenced Leibniz. How the two of them did several attempts to create a Universal Language (which is very related to the myth of Babel).

    I remembered Jorge Luis Borges' "Library of Babel", which was completely filled with permutations and the BIG question there was if they made sense or not.

    And I finally thought of the ideas of Brion Gysin and William Burroughs with their attempts to use language as a way to transcend language... almost replicating an alchemical process but using language as a "matter".

    I finally came to terms with RICHKER and I wrote the essay. I understood that it had a value, that it was uniting all these ideas... and our history as "apes of Thoth" trying to understand the Divine. It suddenly became fascinating.

    So... how can we bring back this "derailed" thread to its course?

    I do not really see much worth in the "emotional" side of the Orders... BUT I see a LOT of worth in something that is VERY similar to what happened to me with RICHKER.
    An Order that works WELL (which is a rare exception) will force you to discuss ideas with persons who will give you "RICHKERS"... things that you don't find worthy at all, but then you can do the exercise of finding a way of not just "liking" them, but making them USEFUL to you... which involves thinking a lot.

    It is because of this same reason that I do not give any value to Crowley and all the nonsense of systems which are simply based on repeating like a parrot what someone else said or did. What do you get from such thing? That eating shit is good and a big Arcanum (and with Crowley this is literal).

    In an individual level, "RICHKER" (and now I mean my essay) is quite similar to what happens in an Order that works well (the Orders in which some idiots who believe that they are enlightened talk and the others who are assumed to be asses listen have no value to me either).

    So rather that going deep into the pit of the emotions, quite often it is about putting the emotions aside and simply doing the exercise of thinking... This "air" becomes a "water" later, but it has to be an "air" first. This process is quite interesting for me and I do give it a value.

    Of course that if you are "too temperamental" and unable to use ideas that in a first sight do not make a lot of sense and you simply think how to crush them, then you can't do it.

    Does that make sense to you? If not, then assume that I meant the opposite.

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