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Thread: Secret Societies and Emotions (derailed)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post

    But feel free to join in any time!
    As Dev himself said at the beginning of his post, "Just had a funny idea" has somehow ended in a place that's not so funny

    The gif was my attempt to bring 'funny' back to the discussion and go back to the topic at hand.

    BTW, I do agree that Axis' word choice could have been better... which only goes to show that women are emotionally superior to men (yes, a sample size of <1 is sufficient)

    Dev, you were right!!!

  2. #22
    It would seem that not only is my theory very upsetting but even my turn of phrase is also rather naughty.

    Perhaps this will help.


  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dev View Post
    I don't think so. I mean artists are not the same. An artist can get away with whatever. But most men drink beer and work in a factory or drive a taxi or construction or run a bank or whatever... can these men cry in front of their friends and say that they feel sad or are scared? Generally. I don't know about where you live but in all the societies I have lived in THEY CANNOT.
    I forgot the geographical factor, you are right. To be honest, I HATE the "nordic culture" (Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany)... I do not exactly mean the culture in the sense of art production, literary production, etc (in that sense there's many things I LOVE)... but the atmosphere, the cold manners, this is hard to explain. The subtle tone of the voices, the "cleanness" of everything... some sort of taboo with "touching" each other (I noticed in the nordic cultures that friends don't touch each other when they talk, whilst the USUAL here in a conversation is that there is an unconscious physical contact -i.e, a hand of the shoulder of the other one, or a hand on the elbow of the other one, etc). Having hosted several persons from different places of the world at my house, I can state that I always saw the same thing, the ones who come from "cold cultures" (it's not just the Nordic one, the North Americans are probably worst in that sense, same thing goes for the English)... they feel almost "raped".

    The USUAL here when to person talk is that they stand like this:

    | |

    Whilst what I have seen there is that the usual is that they stand like this:

    | _______________________ |

    I am by far more used to the Latin cultures (Italy, Spain, South America, France)... The "Nordic cultures", USA, England, several etceteras... I feel there as if everyone was inside of an individual big condom. So if the reaction I saw HERE by people from these "cold cultures" is to feel raped, my feeling when I visit those places is weird, even a bit asphyxiating.

    I am not saying that one style is better than the other, but PROBABLY in the "cold cultures" it is harder to be open about some feelings. This is unrelated to patriarchy or feminism or anything related to those issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by dev View Post
    Perhaps you are confusing your belief or dream or self with what is actual reality for most "normal" men that are not part of occult orders or artist groups as you are... BY THE WAY... you kind of prove my point in the initial post: you are not - based on your posts and what I know of you - a typical MALE MACHO MAN and lo and behold you are in many occult secret orders. Exactly what I am saying. Ha ha ha.
    My CLOSEST friends are not into Occult Orders though (with a few exceptions).
    But if you want to un-derail the thread and talk seriously... I do not participate in any "male only" Order (nor I would).
    As for the Orders or "secret societies" as a way to express the emotions... it's a broad generalization, but you can use the idea of the Pentagram and the Water is just 1/5 of it.
    And going deeper, SOME rites can actually work for someone who has a need to express emotions somewhere... whilst other rites are certainly LESS emotional than an average casual meeting between friends (i.e, a typical birthday party, a dinner with friends, etc).
    So it really depends a lot on which rite we are talking about. The most "technical" ones would be VERY disappointing for someone with those needs.

    As for the gays... to be honest, I ONLY participate in non-homophobic rites (and always with members of both genders with equal rights)... and an interesting fact is that the presence of gays is certainly by far higher than the average of the total population (I would need to count a lot of people as to give an accurate percentage, but I'd say that more or less 35% of the males are openly gay in most of the rites I know).

    [strange fact: whilst the genders are quite equal in amounts, there's more or less the same amount of men and women.... the presence of lesbians is certainly LOWER than the average of the total population... I think that in 20 years I only saw 1 or 2 lesbian women, whilst the gay males are certainly around a 35%]

    Other strange fact: they are NOT endogamic places... in 20 years I think I saw 3 couples being formed INSIDE a "secret society"... which is certainly below the average of what you would expect in a place where lots of persons gather periodically.

    Other than that, a lot of the males perfectly fit into the "typical macho" stereotype there...

    So my conclusions are:
    1) are those places for men to express their gay side? I don't participate in male only rites....in all the ones I know there's lots of gays (who are openly gay, even some couples of legally married gays). I never saw the hetero ones acting "more gay" than they act outside of the rites.
    2) Are they places where males can express their emotions more fluently? It depends a LOT on the rite... in some rites this idea CAN be true, though that's not the point... whilst in some other rites, I'd say that the context makes it by far less "let's express our emotions here" friendly than a casual meeting between friends.
    3) For some strange reason the amount of gay males is noticeable higher than the average of the population, whilst the amount of lesbian women is noticeably lower. I do not know why.
    4) Never saw anyone "getting out of the closet" there and stating that he's gay... the ones who are gay are properly informed that it's OK, so they don't need to hide it.

    Then again, I can speak for non-homophobic and mixed (for both genders) rites.... And yes, I do know several gays who were not exactly expelled, but forced to leave some "male only" rites (they made their lives impossible simply because they were gay). Hmmm... one of my closest friends (who is a typical macho and 100% hetero) and WAS into the most popular "male only" rite (do I need to name it?) managed to trace the gays who were being *tortured* and invited them to his Lodge (where he was the master). He was later asked to give explanations about the strange high amount of gays... his explanation was as simple as: "Am I breaking any rule? Are you questioning my Lodge because some persons are gay?". The ones who asked explanations decided to keep their mouth shut.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    Zoas mon cher, quite a piece of psychoanalysis
    With 2 psychoanalyst parents and a psychoanalyst girlfriend, I would say that I am surrounded.... LOL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    I had lots of close, loving, tender physical contact with my both my parents... and I also had a teddy bear and some really soft blankets... Mmmm... soft... and it was in the 70's... and the first teddy bear they got me was too big and it scared me.... so they got me a smaller one... with whom I had fascinating philosophical conversations in Baby-Gibberish... If only I could remember them...
    Which is not an explanation of your sexual orientation... though I'd say that it perfectly explains why you are a quite typical non-pathological neurotic with some obsessive tendencies.
    (LOL... So I am, though less prone to develop obsessions and more prone to seek for the approval of some specific persons who are, for some reason, important for me).
    Though I noticed that when we have to organize something we often make numbered lists... LOL... Neurosis at its best!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    1. Zoas not a typical male macho man.
    2. Zoas is in many occult secret orders.
    3. Therefore, it (kind of) proves the point that members of occult secret orders are also like that?
    LOL... I do agree with the numbered list.

    So... maybe the question would be why I like SOME "secret societies" (I would called them "Orders", but it's just semantics).
    The FIRST one I knew was heavily based on the USA and England... It was my "first love" when it comes to Orders... and I had to travel to the USA.
    I had the LUCK that it was a very kind Order and they organized for me some sort of US tour, with several persons hosting me in different states of the USA.
    I was very young and I was certainly not very experienced in anything... but I adored to be received as if I was a king and receiving explanations about a lot of things that were interesting for me... and lots of gifts (art, books... and TIME, yeah, our greatest gift is the TIME we give to another person).
    I was, by then, fascinated by a specific book ("The Theater and its Double" by Artaud) and a person in Pennsylvania taught me how to "jump" to other realities... which was mind-blowing for me.
    And then in each state I was learning something different... whilst seeing how lots of very different persons had lifestyles that I liked a lot... points of view that were both new and old for me... so it was very pleasant.
    And I've learnt there something that Deleuze & Blanchot say: that friendship as a category is a condition to think... and that the word "philosophy" literally means "friend of wisdom"... and we get closer to becoming friends of Sophia when we have friends who are also trying to become his friends (though take it for granted that she stays away from those places where women are not allowed to enter in equal conditions!).

    So it's not exactly the "friend", but the "friendship" what makes us think. I am totally plagiarizing Deleuze with this idea, but a good friendship is identical to a comedy duo.
    I.e, last night we talked maybe due to my use of the expression "sexual choice", but then we ended up talking about a lot of things... or showing things... or joking about a specific place to visit and I was not very convinced, but you knew that my girlfriend is my weakness, so you asked me if she would agree with you and I said that for sure she would agree with you... so you said that you know with whom you have to talk.... Or I can make jokes with your tendency to forget some details about non-important things (though I know that you probably forgot that joke). So, that's comedy.
    For sure we mutate each time, so sometimes it's Sancho and Quixote, sometimes it's Dante and Virgil, sometimes it's Abbot and costello... etc.
    But there is a common ground, what Deleuze calls a pre-language... sometimes it's the silly phrases, sometimes they have an unique charm. I don't know, I remember that you said: "You have the right to be wrong"... and I laughed.

    So, what's the point of an Occult Order?
    Well, it's similar to what I have just said. It is a context that creates a pre-language and makes it possible to communicate with persons who are VERY different.
    i.e, there is a consensus in this forum to name something that doesn't have a name as "Spiritus Mundi", thus we can communicate and say "Spiritus Mundi".
    Same thing happens in an "Occult Order"... i.e, we can say that we are going to work with the Ruach and everyone KNOWS what such thing means in that context.
    I like it, it is useful for me, I don't really give a damn if someone does not like them (i.e, I am used to listening to Andro mocking a bit all my Orders and making some funny jokes about it... which is funny for me, I do not get offended at all... I don't need him to like them, I don't need him to say that they are the best thing that the world has to offer).

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    I'm not sure it actually worth trying to fully unpick this textual diarrhoea. I shall make a few salient points only. It speaks to me of being in denial ( e.g. I had good parental contact but also teddies). Then going off at a tangent about Victorian values, I doubt anyone here is so old as have had such an upbringing so this seems incoherent and well....... fanatical to me. It seems to me that the cause could be: a childhood lacking parental intimate contact leading to deprivation and consequently an adult fanaticism of critical theory and nihilism. This is one explanation for these comments.
    Your theory is wrong, that's the problem.
    First of all the "lack of contact" is NOT the case of Andro (neither it is my case)... I would say that our cases are quite similar: maybe an excess of it, rather than a "lack of it".
    Second: this parental contact does not create "ideologies", but psychological structures.
    Third: The excess of parental contact creates neurotics, the lack of it creates psychotics. Neurosis and Psychosis are NOT ideologies (a neurotic can be Nazi, supporter of Trump, Marxist, anarchist or even not interested in politics... whilst a psychotic can be Nazi, supporter of Trump, Marxist, anarchist or even not interested in politics).
    Fourth: If you can't even see that Andro is a quite typical neurotic just by reading him, then you shouldn't be making these wild speculations... LOL, just look at how he gets nervous when a thread is derailed, how he likes to make numbered lists without a reason (just like this one I am making), how he plays with quite non-rational ideas (OBE), but still explains them in an obsessive, coherent and detailed way and does not create multiple branches* that go nowhere...

    *Multiple branches = typical of psychotics... I don't know if it is the right English expression, but what I mean is a type of discourse that goes like this: "I want to talk about out of body experiences. I once had one that lead me to a beach. I liked a lot going to the beach when I was a teen, I used to smoke pot there and laugh. I don't suggest to smoke pot though, it's quite a confusing experience. I like a lot of experiences, like going to the beach, walking with my dog, doing experiments at the lab, watching movies, there is a movie in which I saw an OBE, but I also like musicals, music is amazing, specially swing and jazz, those are my favorite genres, but I also listen to hard rock. I am making an experiment with Cinnabar and Antimony, but I am not sure if those are the right matters, but I think they are. Anyone has experiences with them or has worked with them? O.K... I was talking about walking my dog, he's black and has a red stain in his tail, which I like, his name is Bobby. Bobby is such a sweetheart. I like nice people too, but I also like food that tastes nice. If you want to have an OBE it is important to be relaxed. A lot of things are relaxing, I have never been into a Spa... I've heard that they are relaxing though, I don't like the idea of being covered in mud and the photos I see always show people covered in mud"... That's what "creating branches" means (my closest friend is a functional psychotic and his conversations are like that... I often enjoy talking to him because I like how he associates very random things, though I always try to "cut" his branches and help him to organize the ideas, which is a big problem for him).

    Fifth: a theory is meant to explain a fact... but you can't change the facts as to force them to fit into your theory. You are using classical psychology, but misunderstanding it.... confusing "ideologies" with psychological structures (and, by the way, you CAN change your ideology... conservatives who become libertarians and viceversa are not uncommon... or rabid atheists who become later Religious fanatics... but you can't really change a psychological structure).

    Your theory does not make a lot of sense... nor it is adequate to explain the facts we are talking about (i.e, "Andro the destroyer and negator of all the human culture that ever existed"... LOL... You are talking about a person obsessed with alchemical classics written lots of centuries ago and very much a "traditionalist"... and also a "traditionalist" when it comes to several aspects of his private life, though I would not comment them here or anywhere -I'm very much a "traditionalist" too in a lot of areas... my close friends usually joke about it and say that I would be a good Amish, as a funny way of mocking some of my own views).

    Sixth: if you wanna see the face of a neurotic, just look at the mirror, Axis... you are one too (welcome to the club!).


  4. #24
    I am aware that putting a political ideology into the frame of psychology is frowned upon but it happens. E.G. Wilhelm Reich's mass psychology of Fascism were sexual repression and misery leads to fascism and brutality. Bearing in mind Adorno's basic personality work and his F scale ( F for Fascism). We have psychology as a tool of political discrediting, especial as Adorno was a member of the so called Frankfurt school from which critical theory originated.

    All I have done to make bit of a change to this 'hey how do we feel about emtion and expressing them, how gay is such?' I suggest that this is in fact driven by critical theory and then I suggested a psychological basis for such persistent and recurring counter-culture arguments that pop up from time to time. Usually started by the same usual suspects. A little bit of basic discussion about defence mechanisms and people go ballistic.

    There can be no doubt that people in modern culture have less long term tactile contact with parents whilst neonates. I mean who doesn't have a teddy or such when very young? Then a basic suggestion that this could feed into the basic nihilism and counter-culture imperative of critical theory and various parties go nuclear over this.

    It makes no difference to me if people here agree with this but the strong reaction which looks a lot like denial on the face of it makes me think I may actually be on to something.!

    So by all means all go back to the 'how gay is emotional intelligence debate' I value the responses or should I say reactions. The theory produced primarily hostility and snap intellectual denial here, ( defence mechanisms cannot really be identified via a forum, body language helps to verify). So if it is not interesting to you all to asses this theory get back to the same old issues as before and best of luck.
    Last edited by Axismundi000; 03-22-2017 at 09:10 PM. Reason: Typos

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    I am aware that putting a political ideology into the frame of psychology is frowned upon but it happens. E.G. Wilhelm Reich's mass psychology of Fascism were sexual repression and misery leads to fascism and brutality. Bearing in mind Adorno's basic personality work and his F scale ( F for Fascism).
    LOL... First time I see someone questioning the idea of a counter-culture by quoting Reich... It is a bit like quoting Fulcanelli to explain that transmutations into gold are not possible.

    Reich was a damn genius... Same thing goes to Adorno, Benjamin, Marcuse, etc. I adore them.
    They were incredibly confused though.
    Their writings are VERY dated. Their idea about sexuality in a nutshell was that sexual satisfaction leads to freedom and that freedom means a more equal society.
    They wrote what they wrote during times of sexual oppression and it is VERY likely that the most "liberals" in their times were certainly more sexually open than the "conservatives" (and fascists).
    The times have changed and we now have seen people like Silvio Berlusconi who shouted whenever he could what a "playboy" he was... or the idiotic racist ideas of Milo Yiannopoulos... which completely contradict their statements and prove them to be wrong. Though I understand WHY they thought that way, but it's simply a confusion of causes and effects.

    The gay filmmaker Bruce LaBruce made an AMAZING movie mocking a bit these ideas, "Raspberry Reich"... which is a parody of the Baader-Meinhof group (a.k.a. Red Army Faction)... which is in the movie lead by a female character called Gudrun who is obsessed with Reich, Marcuse, Adorno... etc... and quotes them again and again explaining to the male "marxist terrorists" that follow her ideas that they have to be gay as to be TRUE revolutionaries and get rid of capitalist values.

    Bruce LaBruce is a damn genius and his movie is a parody of these ideas, though LaBruce plays a lot with a "propaganda" style to promote the ideas he is mocking and considers absurd (any of his movies are what I would call the best of the best when it comes to gay counterculture... some others are less interesting). This scene summarizes the concept of the movie (sorry for the poor quality of the video).



    I think that Reich and the Frankfurt School have a LOT to offer, but their conclusions about sexuality are VERY dated and they got confused between causes and effects.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    ...some sort of taboo with "touching" each other... I noticed in the nordic cultures that friends don't touch each other when they talk... the ones who come from "cold cultures"...
    When it concerns Scandinavia there is truth in this statement, however I think you have misinterpreted it. The reason Scandinavians seem cold and do not touch is because they respect personal space.

    You have to keep in mind that not many people live in Scandinavia, and Scandinavia is pretty big with wide open spaces, and extremly large areas of Nature. This creates a sense of space. There have been reports of people from Tokyo who suffer agora phobia when they visit.

    Also Scandinavians guard their "inner circle" more than most cultures. Strong emotions are more respected. I have talked about this in the forum many times before. The word "LOVE" is used like people use toilet paper. Especially in the English speaking language the word "love" has lost all meaning.

    Where I come from, when you say "I love you", you don't say that shit when your partner goes out to get some milk. You don't say that before you hang up the phone after you called home to inform the "other" that you are running late.

    You say that shit like if it was the last shit you would ever say in your life. You own it when you say it.

    When a Scandinavian really gets to know a new friend it takes time. Sometimes years... sometimes less... before that "friend" is allowed to be "my friend". However when that happens it is a strong bond for life, and "intimacy" is no longer an issue.

    Just like the serious respect for "I love you", a "friendship" is what is valued, not the "mi amigo" after 5 minutes sitting side by side on the bus for the first time, in rush hour. Not used as a word to describe a fellow being, like "my friend, hello..." (salesmen outside Scandinavia do this a lot).

    A friend is a friend. Everyone else is a stranger.

    And Scandinavians are usually the most generous as a culture.

    I am not trying to portray us in a good light... we have a lot of good light... we also remain rich and free by selling bombs that you hide in fruit, in order to better target civilians. And not that long ago homosexuals were - by law - on the same illegal level as raping animals and children. And retards were not allowed to have children.

    Still... compared to most countries in the world, us Scandinavians are pretty nice and friendly, if you have patience.

    ----------------------------------------------

    Hope you got some understanding to the stereotype. As I said before stereotypes are always true to some degree, but there are always many perspectives and reasons behind them.

    And as always the above rant is a generalization, but it happens to - generally - be true, IMO. And I am not speaking for "how I am"... just "what is" from living in that area of the world for over three decades.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    ...the "cleanness" of everything...
    I tastefully disagree [not observationally]. I love this. It's nice to take a stroll and not see garbage everywhere. But perhaps you refer to the Scandinavian design of minimalism and simplicity. I do agree that at least when it comes to interior design I prefer it a bit more "warm". However the Scandinavian design is a simplified exaggeration where the "style" of Scandinavia has been distilled for the world market. Very similar to Japan. And there is a beauty in that simple minimal style, there is a warmth.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    To be honest, I HATE the "nordic culture" (Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany)...
    Excuse me, my good Sir, but GERMANY is not "nordic culture". That would be like if I said Argentina and Italy is the same culture and people. LOL. In a sense Argentina has more in common with Germany than any other country in the world if you think about it: after all Hitler lived in both.

    Last edited by Awani; 03-23-2017 at 12:29 AM. Reason: fix
    Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dev View Post
    When it concerns Scandinavia there is truth in this statement, however I think you have misinterpreted it. The reason Scandinavians seem cold and do not touch is because they respect personal space.
    LOL... this is becoming the thread of the clarifications.

    No, I have not misinterpreted it, I understand it perfectly. I understand the notion of respecting the personal space of another person... It's is simply that we do not have the culture of social interaction here.

    It doesn't even MEAN that you are a friend of someone. i.e, You can be driving and your car breaks. You are in Argentina. I will assume that you don't understand anything about the mechanics of a car (maybe you do, but let's pretend that you don't just for the example), but you'll take a look and will try to figure out what's wrong. Another wanna-be mechanic will probably stop by and try to help you and try to figure out what's wrong with your car. As you are both looking, it would not be strange at all if he puts his hand on your back... and once the two of you have not figured out how to fix the car and decided that calling a REAL mechanic is better, then he will say "good bye" by giving you a kiss in the cheek.

    He is not expecting to be your friend, he will probably never see you again in his life, he will not ask you for money... he is simply following the usual standards of human interaction that we are used to.

    LOL... the "amigo, amigo" you will only hear it if you are a tourist... the salesmen on the street usually don't have a good English, so they will try to use "nice words" assuming that the other one who probably speaks English will understand them. They are not trying to be your friends, just to sell you something. If you are a local, then you probably won't hear the "amigo, amigo".

    So, in most cases people from "cold cultures" (and I am NOT talking about the weather) feel almost "raped", uneasy, the private space of their body has been touched. It's not a speculation, I saw it a lot of times when I host persons from "cold cultures".

    SO... what i meant is that something similar happens to a person who comes from a "warm culture" and visits a place/country with a cold one.... it's really weird. The social interaction is bizarre, it feels almost inhuman... maybe because we are used to other "rules" of social interaction: touching is somehow a sign of respect, the idea of "respecting the body of the other person" is different (take it for granted that nobody will hug you just because... but touching your back, arms, etc... that's quite usual and common). It is even a sign of "respect".

    Same thing goes for the distance between people when they talk. We are used to stand by far closer, even to a stranger. It's not really a sign of friendship, it's just how things are.

    So I am strictly speaking of the social interaction. So when I said that I hate the nordic culture, I didn't mean that I hate Swedenborg, Ingmar Bergman or August Strindberg (LOL... I like a lot the 3 of them). Nor that I dislike people who lives there.

    I simply meant that the social interaction is too bizarre for someone used to an absolutely different culture.

    LOL... I don't think Hitler lived here, but many German Nazis did (after the war)... and yet this "many" may mean some 3,000... which is a meaningless influence. So there isn't a real German influence here (the main ones are Spanish and Italian).

    Oh, with cleanness I meant both things, the "minimalism" and the literal lack of garbage... It feels a bit weird when you are used to something VERY different. It's a bit like the feeling of getting into the operating room for a surgery. It's so aseptic that it feels strange.

    So, what I wrote was not meant to be taken as an offense, just an explanation of how DIFFERENT our contexts of social interaction (the places in which we live) are. How the "rules" are completely different... and how such thing feels weird in both ways (a Scandinavian can feel almost "raped" in South America... a South American can feel that everything is almost "inhuman" or "hostile" in Scandinavia). Two different cultural contexts. I'm not saying that one is better than the other... though I can confess that I can have vacations there and it is pleasant (well, I did it a few times and it was nice), but if I had to LIVE there, I would go crazy.

    I BELIEVE, but I am not sure, that MAYBE in a "cold culture" is harder to express the emotions than in a "warm culture".

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    LOL... First time I see someone questioning the idea of a counter-culture by quoting Reich... It is a bit like quoting Fulcanelli to explain that transmutations into gold are not possible.

    Reich was a damn genius... Same thing goes to Adorno, Benjamin, Marcuse, etc. I adore them.
    They were incredibly confused though.
    Their writings are VERY dated. Their idea about sexuality in a nutshell was that sexual satisfaction leads to freedom and that freedom means a more equal society.
    They wrote what they wrote during times of sexual oppression and it is VERY likely that the most "liberals" in their times were certainly more sexually open than the "conservatives" (and fascists).
    The times have changed and we now have seen people like Silvio Berlusconi who shouted whenever he could what a "playboy" he was... or the idiotic racist ideas of Milo Yiannopoulos... which completely contradict their statements and prove them to be wrong. Though I understand WHY they thought that way, but it's simply a confusion of causes and effects.

    The gay filmmaker Bruce LaBruce made an AMAZING movie mocking a bit these ideas, "Raspberry Reich"... which is a parody of the Baader-Meinhof group (a.k.a. Red Army Faction)... which is in the movie lead by a female character called Gudrun who is obsessed with Reich, Marcuse, Adorno... etc... and quotes them again and again explaining to the male "marxist terrorists" that follow her ideas that they have to be gay as to be TRUE revolutionaries and get rid of capitalist values.

    Bruce LaBruce is a damn genius and his movie is a parody of these ideas, though LaBruce plays a lot with a "propaganda" style to promote the ideas he is mocking and considers absurd (any of his movies are what I would call the best of the best when it comes to gay counterculture... some others are less interesting). This scene summarizes the concept of the movie (sorry for the poor quality of the video).



    I think that Reich and the Frankfurt School have a LOT to offer, but their conclusions about sexuality are VERY dated and they got confused between causes and effects.
    And yet so much of critical theory is to be seen being implemented in our daily lives. Safe zones in universities, transgender studies as part of children's sexual education. Happy holidays instead of merry Christmas etc etc. A lot of the things critical theory has brought forward I have benefited from and I have chosen examples above I personally have no objection to. To say they (Frankfurt school) were confused is incorrect I feel, specifically in terms of implementation. How could such confused ideas have had such impact over the last few decades? Also the essential nihilistic nature of critical theory can be mistaken for confusion when in fact it is methodology. Speaking from personal experience I notice a driving fanatical mania amongst exponents of critical theory even those who buy into particular ideas without understanding the overall provenance. This and the existential nihilism which accompanies it makes me wonder if a major push factor in this is in the same area as what Bowbly called anaclitic sociopathy. A narrow spectrum sociopathy were the deprivation angst is channeled into a societal norm rejecting fanaticism. It is interesting to note that people raised from children in a kibbutz show greater aggression and cruelty to the opponents of the parent society, as if the state has become the mother who must be cherished. So the idea that reduced tactile stimulus from parent whilst a neonate may lead to preference for nihilistic, societal norm rejecting views or even fanaticism as an adult is a reasonable idea to explore. As I observe the powerful reaction and angry rejection by forum members when presented with this view is very interesting indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    How could such confused ideas have had such impact over the last few decades?
    Look at history. When did coherent ideas/ideologies (the sort that of ideas/ideologies that actually benefit everyone, not just the powerful interest groups) ever have any significant impact on society? Did you know, for example, that poverty (over 60% of the world's population) is NOT accidental but maintained BY DESIGN? (and by confused/confusing ideas/ideologies)

    History and most mainstream culture & so-called 'values' are written and propelled by psychopaths and their trolling minions (a.k.a. 'useful idiots'). 'Confused' (& confusing) ideas RULE. Literally.

    And whenever 'threatening' counter-cultures exist or arise, they are either discredited and destroyed (by labeling them 'fanatical & narcissist', for example ) OR, more often, gradually adopted, hijacked, altered to fit the narrative of the psychopathic power structure and finally 'incorporated'. The Romans did it, and it is still being done to this day.
    And what's counter-culture, anyway? How much of today's 'culture' was 'counter-culture' before it became 'mainstream' and further heading for its inevitable decline, all part of perpetuating the Hegelian dialectic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    As I observe the powerful reaction and angry rejection by forum members when presented with this view is very interesting indeed.
    Not nearly as interesting as the obsessive need to repeat this 'observation' in almost every post, almost like trying to become convinced that if it's repeated often enough, it will eventually make it true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Usually started by the same usual suspects.
    I assume you mostly refer to Zoas and myself

    Repeatedly disagreeing with quasi-intellectual (regardless how erudite-sounding) armchair generalizations & speculations (a.k.a. 'academic trolling') doesn't necessarily indicate 'being in denial', just as having a teddy bear as an infant doesn't necessarily indicate lack of loving parental contact (of which I personally had plenty).

    This and the existential nihilism which accompanies it
    I wonder (rhetorically) if you possess the emphatic capacity to place yourself in the shoes of people who are automatically deemed as 'lesser' or as 'outcasts' (and sometimes even outlaws) BY DEFAULT, just because they were born with the 'wrong' skin color/orientation/gender/ancestry/geography/etc? How would you feel knowing that the entire 'system' is rigged/wired against you from the start? Seeing how firmly you present your current views, I may easily deduce that if you had gotten a somewhat 'lesser' ticket at the sperm lottery, we might have witnessed the birth of an influential counter-culture fanatical nihilist

    When I was in my early 20's, I heard a man on the radio saying he'd rather have a son who's a serial killer than a son who's gay. And I already knew very well back then that similar ideas were held by a large majority where I lived. But then, in that particular moment, I sincerely wished with all my heart that the whole world would explode in a big ball of fire... So there's the 'fanatical nihilist' moment for ya... Happy now?

    I am fortunately no longer in my 20's and I see this world for what it is. The child is grown, the dream is gone, so to speak. Disillusionment tends to cast out illusions, but interestingly enough, it also facilitates a whole new level of inner freedom and peace, unknown by most. So now I just live and let live, certainly NOT feeling a victim, not incorporated into any system, philosophy or sub/counter culture - unless someone is misguided enough to get the really bad idea to start messing with me 'in real life'. But I do however reserve the right to verbally argue any silly theory that comes my way from people who basically live in their heads/books and have no fucking clue what they're talking about.

    --------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by Andro; 03-23-2017 at 12:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dev View Post
    In a sense Argentina has more in common with Germany than any other country in the world if you think about it: after all Hitler lived in both.
    Your flawless deduction skills never cease to impress ...

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