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Thread: Sad but True?

  1. #1
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    Sad but True?

    Some sayings have become proverbs, even cliches... It is often said about cliches that the reason for them becoming cliches is that they're true...

    To get started, here are three things that I have found to be true from personal experience, not just once, but many times... It doesn't make them 'absolute', but they are correct more often than not:

    1. No good deed goes unpunished.

    2.
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    3. "I applied my Heart to know Wisdom, and to know Madness and Folly. I perceived that this also was a Chasing of the Wind. For in much Wisdom is much Grief, and He who increaseth Knowledge, increaseth Sorrow." (Ecclesiastes)

    _____________

    What say you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    "I applied my Heart to know Wisdom, and to know Madness and Folly. I perceived that this also was a Chasing of the Wind. For in much Wisdom is much Grief, and He who increaseth Knowledge, increaseth Sorrow." (Ecclesiastes)
    Story of my life....
    Join me; on a voyage of stupidity, and self discovery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=vccZSHroTG4

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    Some sayings have become proverbs, even cliches... It is often said about cliches that the reason for them becoming cliches is that they're true...

    To get started, here are three things that I have found to be true from personal experience, not just once, but many times... It doesn't make them 'absolute', but they are correct more often than not:

    1. No good deed goes unpunished.

    2.
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    3. "I applied my Heart to know Wisdom, and to know Madness and Folly. I perceived that this also was a Chasing of the Wind. For in much Wisdom is much Grief, and He who increaseth Knowledge, increaseth Sorrow." (Ecclesiastes)

    _____________

    What say you?
    For point 1 LaVey makes this observation you have mentioned here. sometimes good deeds simply go un-noticed which I think is the best outcome because the changed effected by the 'deed' is fully harmonised.

    Point 2 is about not correctly considering consequences of actions nothing more than that I feel. If you have a good intention and consider its consequences before executing it is unlikely to lead you hellwards.

    Point 3 moves easily into biblical casuistry so I will simply observe the similarities between this quotation and the Buddhist 'vision of sorrow' which indicates the individual has consciously decided to tread the path of enlightenment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elixirmixer View Post
    Story of my life....
    Mine too...
    _________________

    Here's another one:

    "You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't."

    Everyone is welcome to add their own "sad but true" saying or "cliches"... or comment on those already posted, if so inclined...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    For point 1 LaVey makes this observation you have mentioned here. sometimes good deeds simply go un-noticed which I think is the best outcome because the changed effected by the 'deed' is fully harmonised.

    Point 2 is about not correctly considering consequences of actions nothing more than that I feel. If you have a good intention and consider its consequences before executing it is unlikely to lead you hellwards.

    Point 3 moves easily into biblical casuistry so I will simply observe the similarities between this quotation and the Buddhist 'vision of sorrow' which indicates the individual has consciously decided to tread the path of enlightenment.
    Point 1 - I have no problem with doing "good deeds" without them being noticed at all. I agree it is the best outcome. However, one often gets repercussions (i.e. "punishment") for such deeds.

    Point 2 - It is impossible to predict all possible consequences, even for those who are "wiser". But then again, I think the "wiser" ones will stay away from such a 'karmic' (for lack of a better term) sort of entrapment.

    Pint 3 - I adhere to the vision you mentioned. I just don't call it 'Enlightenment', but Liberation. But I guess the meaning is similar.

    Yes, we're already "Liberated' at the Center, but how many people do we know who actually ARE and EXPRESS from the Center and not from the superfluous layers of onion-versal programming?

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    Sure it can be said that there is some truth in a cliché, and even in prejudices. However it is very easy, and it is very human, to remember those things that confirm the truth/cliché rather than remember the times when it does not... thus reinforcing the opinion one might have. So personally I try to avoid such thinking, although I fall in that trap on a regular basis as everyone else (at least it is happening less and less).

    They might not have been viewed as such by you, but for me these three points fall under the genre of negativity/defeatism/depressing. So from my perspective I think it is more like this:

    1. - You get what you give. Whatever energy you send out comes back tenfold. So it is up to me if I want shit or sugar in my tea.
    2. - The road to heaven is paved with good intentions (and hard - yet easy - work.
    3. - Ignorance is not bliss, but entrapment. But yes the quote by Ecclesiastes is very true and I have suffered from this my whole life. It is easier to be a zombie than to use your mind. However as the saying goes (and here is another): you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    ...who actually ARE and EXPRESS from the Center and not from the superfluous layers of onion-versal programming?
    A bit of a paradox, because if I was and expressed from the Center I would not be HERE right now. And if I was, I'd probably just lurk. There is not much to say. There is only the action of BE... and if BE has not happened it is all about BECOMING. And such practices cannot be done together, and it cannot be achieved with help. It can only be done by the self. Yes, others can inspire... but ultimately it is - in my case - my responsibility.

    Recently saw a documentary about Mike Tyson and Mike was good enough on his own to kick the shit out of people, but it was thanks to his coach that he became a champion. The coach did not teach him anything, he more kept him on the right path... pushed him in the right direction. But in the end it was Mike's effort that gave him the gold. In the end Mike got what he gave... and then he fell from grace. LOL. That is another story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    However, one often gets repercussions (i.e. "punishment") for such deeds.
    Only if you (I) allow them to become a repercussion. For example:

    If I walk by a beggar and I give him some money and he spits in my face and calls me a cunt... then what I should do is give him some more money and bless his life. The beggar will not expect such a response. It will confuse him... and perhaps over time change him. To me this is the only way. Not easy, certainly... but Liberation/Enlightenment is hard work... but as far as its core/details it is - to me - also very simple.

    Small children are in a state of liberation. There are fewer layers of programming, almost none if any. As they grow up they adopt more and more code till one day they "wake up" and understand that they have to strip away all the code again. LOL.

    Jesus said: "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

    This is what he means I think. To be enlightened is to be in the same mental state as a child.

    Recently heard this story about a guru who lived a hundred years ago. He always walked around naked and in a constant state of meditative peace. To the British gentlemen who ruled India at the time he appeared as a madman. So they locked him up in an asylum. But the guru didn't care. To him it did not matter where he was. He was fine. Eventually they had to let him go, because the asylum was invaded by thousands of "followers" every week.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    Everything is a lesson, and if I am kind and receive a repercussion then that is really a lesson on how I react to such an event... than a repercussion. I don't have control over what other people do to me, only what I do to them (with good intentions)... and how I react to their actions. Etc. And if they think my good intentions was bad for them... well it is really "their" problem.

    Throwing blame around is the reason the world is as it is. Ya basta!

    Anyway this is the outlook I have on these matters. Interesting topic.

    If bored look at this: A List of 1.800 English Phrases and Sayings - all explained

    Last edited by Awani; 04-29-2017 at 12:54 PM. Reason: clarify

    Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    1. No good deed goes unpunished.


    It is sometimes like that. I can't even count the times I've hosted for free absolute strangers at my house (in most cases from Europe), sometimes for a month... and yet when it's me the one who travels to Europe, all I hear from them is excuses about how they can't host me for 3 days.
    So I've learnt my lesson: I will keep on hosting people for free! It's never a "quid pro quo".

    With MOST people it works this way:

    "I do believe that
    the more you give your love
    and I do believe that
    the more you offer trust
    the more you chase
    the more you cry
    the more you're bound to lose
    the more you're bound to lose"

    ... And yet, I'm not sorry... the "good actions" actually return, though in most cases from a different place, a different person, a different situation. It's not even "karma" or something "metaphysical"... We can choose violence, lack of interest in others, self-benefit above anything else, a mediocre life, idiocy and the "chaos of the normal"... or we can choose something else.... However:

    Some time ago you were rightfully upset when I used the expression "sexual choice" and corrected me with "sexual orientation", explaining the obvious, that there isn't any choice there. Along the same lines I would talk about "ethical orientations"... I know your ethical orientation... and it's part of what makes you special.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
    ... It is sometimes like that.



    But still... as William Burroughs said: "The cat does not offer services. The cat offers itself". For some people there is no other choice... at least for me there is no other choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    3. "I applied my Heart to know Wisdom, and to know Madness and Folly. I perceived that this also was a Chasing of the Wind. For in much Wisdom is much Grief, and He who increaseth Knowledge, increaseth Sorrow." (Ecclesiastes)
    "In the middle of the journey of our life, I came to myself, in a dark wood, where the direct way was lost." (Inferno, Canto I).

    The Divine Comedy and life are quite similar... We somehow have to visit hell and see and experience its insanity.
    I could go philosophical, but which one would be the point?

    I would gladly travel 11,902 kilometers to offer the BEST shamanic therapy that there is: a hug.
    (No obscure grimoire, no ancient knowledge, no deep meditation or anything can beat something so simple).


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    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    "I do believe that
    the more you give your love
    and I do believe that
    the more you offer trust
    the more you chase
    the more you cry
    the more you're bound to lose"
    I think this is the most cynical lyrics I have heard in a long time. Ha ha. Starting to understand why I never got into Morrissey. Although I have nothing against depressing art in any form... but I would not take it too serious and adopt it into my life. I would re-write these lyrics like this:

    I do know that
    the more you give your love
    and I do believe that
    the more you offer trust
    the more you find
    the more you laugh
    the more you're bound to win


    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    ...the "good actions" actually return, though in most cases from a different place, a different person, a different situation.
    Indeed.


    Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    Some sayings have become proverbs, even cliches... It is often said about cliches that the reason for them becoming cliches is that they're true...

    To get started, here are three things that I have found to be true from personal experience, not just once, but many times... It doesn't make them 'absolute', but they are correct more often than not:

    1. No good deed goes unpunished.

    2.
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    3. "I applied my Heart to know Wisdom, and to know Madness and Folly. I perceived that this also was a Chasing of the Wind. For in much Wisdom is much Grief, and He who increaseth Knowledge, increaseth Sorrow." (Ecclesiastes)

    _____________

    What say you?
    I don't disagree with anything you've said, and personal experience has taught me the same.

    More specifically though, as far as no good deed going unpunished, I absolutely think that's true... to a point. Because as much as negative outcomes happen for doing what is most loving and best for those on the receiving end, there's always a lesson involved (as Awani has pointed out), and often your words or actions can plant a seed which will grow and you may not even be there to see it. As much as I myself have felt "punished" at times of weakness for good deeds, I also know I have been the one to punish others for theirs, even if not intentionally. The lesson there for me is to see that and to reconcile what I can for those and give back as I would have liked for myself. And learning that will also teach me the perspective of those who punish me in future, for they do not see, you see?

    Quote Originally Posted by Awani View Post
    Sure it can be said that there is some truth in a cliché, and even in prejudices. However it is very easy, and it is very human, to remember those things that confirm the truth/cliché rather than remember the times when it does not... thus reinforcing the opinion one might have. So personally I try to avoid such thinking, although I fall in that trap on a regular basis as everyone else (at least it is happening less and less).
    It really does depend on perspective. And perspective is also dependent on which part of the cycle you're in at any given time. It's necessary to go through periods of pain and sacrifice in order to overcome and grow better, stronger and bigger (in the sense of becoming bigger than the problems you faced, as if they were nothing if you had to deal with them again).

    Well hey, there's another one to add to the sayings of sad truths: "No pain, no gain."

    And to add to Awani's response about how this perspective is measured by essentially ignoring the positive side of it and only seeing the negative, sure, that's valid. But it's also like Axismundi000 mentioned:

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    For point 1 LaVey makes this observation you have mentioned here. sometimes good deeds simply go un-noticed which I think is the best outcome because the changed effected by the 'deed' is fully harmonised.
    Or "no news is good news" in other words. We focus on what needs correcting in order to perceive it in a way that recognises the faults we are working on fixing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Point 2 is about not correctly considering consequences of actions nothing more than that I feel. If you have a good intention and consider its consequences before executing it is unlikely to lead you hellwards.
    I understand where you're coming from on that, however, as I have so "rudely" been awoken to from experience, that is a thin line to cross (as far as considering consequences with good intentions unlikely to lead you wrong goes) and can often result in that not being the case (I say that tongue in cheek because I don't really see it as a rude awakening, as I am grateful for it, just that it was painful to go through at the time).

    The fact is, if we haven't learnt a lesson one way or the other, we will have to learn. Best intentions will bring you very far, but considering the consequences when you haven't learned what they could possibly be will not stop the consequences from happening. And sometimes people just get burnt out from those things happening and lose perspective altogether. It's a very tricky, thin line to cross from sanity to insanity. We have to cross that line at some point to experience insanity and sometimes people just don't come back, learned and better. All we can do is try our best and forgive those that don't.

    I think the Ecclesiastes verse is true for the same reason I just described above. No one sees wisdom until they've reached for and experienced it for themselves. In the mean time, they'll punish your good deeds and then we'll have come full circle.
    If you have to ask you'll never know; if you know, you need only ask.

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