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Thread: (non)Mineral, (non)Metal, (non)Magnet

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiorionis View Post
    Not sure if I 100% understand what you're getting at, but I'll throw this out anyways based on my own experience haha.

    It's a matter of coherence along the "chain", similar to like-begetting-like. The whole: you cannot produce a tree from a rock, cannot produce a man from an acorn argument which many texts like to repeat. Break one link in the "chain" and everything unravels.

    It might also be important to note that the Alkahest is an evolved an concocted matter, not the starting matter.



    Do you have a control experiment, to determine a baseline?
    The understanding I have is that a magnet is required to attract the SM, as SM is not available in use able abundance naturally, and that this SM after being collected may be Putrefyed and Distilled and Coagulated and Rectified and Purified all in and of itself, in one Vessel, and that once properly treated as such became the Universal Solvent or Menstruum or Alkehest.

    That said I have not produced a Stone myself. However I think it would be fair to bid others who have not produced one either to refrain from absolute statements about what is where and used for which what.

    I suppose it cannot hurt to outline my present experiments as such.

    Jar 1) slight preparation before hand. Filled slightly less than 1/3rd of way with sea salt, a small circle of water was added to the very center of the pile and 3 OMs intoned into it also, then the jar was left in darkness until the next full moon

    Jar 2) filled partway with soil my niece had taken an interest in the day before (she's just turned 3, still very intuitive) just after midnight on the full moon so the soils saturation with the Lunar Light would be maximized.

    Jar 3) is physically empty but Philosophically "full". At the time the experiment was performed (just after midnight of April the 13th) I simply held the jar aloft, open end directly towards the moon. I observed the rays of the moon and them interacting with themselves and obstructing each other and coagulating into an uncertain "pile" of unspecified potential Lunar energy, having been fed by the Sun and Hopefully impregnated by Mother moon, I was aware of its presence without picturing it or holding a concept of it in my mind, simply being aware that it was there. This went on for approx 10-15 minutes. I hope my neighbors didn't look out the window for some reason xD

    I dug 3 small shallow holes in the earth where my niece had spontaneously begun digging the day before and lightly pressed the disturbed earth around the jars leaving the tips slightly above the dirt. Then I went inside until about 330, which is just before the first rays of the Sun would begin peaking out and disturbing the dew/mundi I was hoping to catch more of in my experiments.

    All 3 jars are currently in a dark box side by side in a room temperature closet that also doesn't see any light. On the new moon I investigated them briefly and noticed condensation in all 3 jars but it's far too early and my glance far too brief to say what anything is. All 3 could easily be nothing.
    Last edited by Visceral; 05-01-2017 at 08:42 PM. Reason: minor typos

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Those guys are using a very particular definition of "mineral", to mean something that has a "definitive chemical formula and crystal structure." If we go by such a technicality, then there aren't that many "minerals" on the planet, as the majority of them are not "pure" and contain varying proportions of other substances. And even by the peculiar definition they use, limonite is simply a mixture of various mineral oxides & hydroxides. So it is a "mineral" no matter how you want to look at it.
    Yet truly it is a mineraloid, no?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    Yet truly it is a mineraloid, no?
    I guess you could say so. It is a composite of several minerals.

  4. #14
    Be sure, Schum, that if I don't reply yet it is because I value your responses enough to hold a response of my own until I have had time to read all of it and reference the books and authors you mention. Don't think I don't notice a pile of gold when it's put before me!

    I love reading. Lege, Lege, Relege etc

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    I guess you could say so. It is a composite of several minerals.
    A mineraloid is a naturally occurring, inorganic solid that does not exhibit crystallinity. It may have the outward appearance of a mineral, but it does not have the “ordered atomic structure” required to meet the definition of a mineral. Some mineraloids also lack the “definite chemical composition” required to be a mineral.

    To be considered a mineral, a material must meet the following five requirements:

    1) naturally occurring
    2) inorganic
    3) solid
    4) ordered atomic structure
    5) definite chemical composition (can vary within a limited range)
    Minerals are “crystalline.” In other words, they have an ordered atomic structure. In contrast, mineraloids are “amorphous.” This means that their internal atomic structure is not ordered.

    Without the ordered atomic structure, mineraloids never produce well-formed crystals. They also do not exhibit the property of cleavage because they lack internal planes of weakness.
    http://geology.com/minerals/mineraloids/

    What I found interesting about Limonite was it's constant association with other metals. So far as I know you never find Limonite by itself. It also has the intersting property of transforming into other mineral/metals over time. I would like an alchemist to explain to me how such a process is NOT related to SM and it's slow assimilation of mineral/metals into their purest form, i.e. eventually gold.

    Researchers who studied "limonite" discovered that it is amorphous and has a variable composition. It often contains significant amounts of iron oxide minerals such as goethite and hematite. This research revealed that the material called "limonite" does not meet the definition of a mineral. Instead, limonite is a mineraloid composed mainly of hydrous iron oxides that are often found in intimate associations with iron minerals.

    Today the word "limonite" is used as a field and classroom term for these materials because they cannot be identified in hand specimens and their identity is unknown without laboratory testing. The time and expense required to do this testing is generally not needed, unless the material is going to be used in industry or it is the subject of a detailed study. Thus the name "limonite" is not obsolete; it is still meaningful and useful.


    Geologic Occurrence
    Limonite usually occurs as a secondary material, formed from the weathering of hematite, magnetite, pyrite, and other iron-bearing materials. Limonite is often stalactitic, reniform, botryoidal, or mammillary in habit rather than crystalline. It also occurs as pseudomorphs and coatings on the walls of fractures and cavities.

    Some limonite is found in stratified deposits where hydrous iron oxides form as precipitated sediment on the floor of shallow swamps, lakes, and marine environments. These can be of inorganic or biogenic origin.

    Limonite often forms as a precipitate at springs and mine openings where acidic, iron-laden waters emerge from the subsurface. Most subsurface waters contain very little oxygen, and when they discharge to the surface, they often encounter oxygenated waters. Dissolved metals in the groundwater rapidly combine with the dissolved oxygen of the surface water to form a precipitate that falls onto the bed of the stream. This precipitate is a characteristic sign of acid mine drainage.

    Limonite is very resistant to weathering and often accumulates as a residual deposit. It is often the main form of iron and colorant in lateritic soils.
    http://geology.com/minerals/limonite.shtml

    (continued)
    Limonite has been used by people since prehistoric times. Their first use of limonite was probably as a pigment. It is found in many Neolithic pictographs, and throughout history it has been one of the most important pigments for creating paints in the yellow to brown color range known as ocher. Its use as a pigment continues today. It can sometimes be used directly from the deposit with minimal processing, but it is often heat treated to drive off water, simplify the production of a powder, and improve color.
    Limonite has been used as a low-quality iron ore for thousands of years. Commercial mining of limonite as a source of iron is no longer done in areas where reasonable deposits of hematite and magnetite are present or readily imported. Limonite deposits are usually too small and too impure for use in modern metallurgy.

    Names such as "brown iron," "brown hematite," "bog iron," and "brown ocher" have been used by miners to relate limonite with its potential uses. Their use has declined significantly, and the name "limonite" is now used for these various materials.
    Now what is going on here that makes hematite so darn interesting? Well firstly it's everywhere. It's one of the most abundant materials on earth. Also it's description might seem familiar:

    Hematite has an extremely variable appearance. Its luster can range from earthy to submetallic to metallic. Its color ranges include red to brown and black to gray to silver. It occurs in many forms that include micaceous, massive, crystalline, botryoidal, fibrous, oolitic, and others.

    Even though hematite has a highly variable appearance, it always produces a reddish streak.
    http://geology.com/minerals/hematite.shtml

    Black, scaly in appearance and leaves a reddish streak. Known in ancient times as a "healing stone". However we all know that THE stone is not readily picked up off the ground. So the hematite must be treated somehow yes?

    Turns out there is a ready abundance of magnetite->hematite via a blast furnace being used to oxidize the magnetite. This hematite is very interesting magnetically speaking.

    Hematite is an antiferromagnetic material below the Morin transition at 250 kelvin (K) or -9.7 degrees Fahrenheit (°F), and a canted antiferromagnet or weakly ferromagnetic above the Morin transition and below its Néel temperature at 948 K, above which it is paramagnetic.

    The magnetic structure of a-hematite was the subject of considerable discussion and debate in the 1950s because it appeared to be ferromagnetic with a Curie temperature of around 1000 K, but with an extremely tiny magnetic moment (0.002 µB). Adding to the surprise was a transition with a decrease in temperature at around 260 K to a phase with no net magnetic moment. It was shown that the system is essentially antiferromagnetic, but that the low symmetry of the cation sites allows spin–orbit coupling to cause canting of the moments when they are in the plane perpendicular to the c axis.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematite

    Spin canting:

    Spin canting is due to two factors contrasting each other: isotropic exchange would align the spins exactly antiparallel, while antisymmetric exchange arising from relativistic effects (spin-orbit coupling) would align the spins at 90° to each other. The net result is a small perturbation, the extent of which depends on the relative strength of these effects.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_canting

    A little more on man's history with limonite, hematite, ochre, to drive home these connections should not be ignored entirely:

    The name hematite is derived from the Greek word for blood αἷμα haima, due to the red coloration found in some varities of hematite. The color of hematite lends itself to use as a pigment. The English name of the stone is derived from Middle French: Hématite Pierre, which was imported from Latin: Lapis Hćmatites around the 15th century, which originated from Ancient Greek: αἱματίτης λίθος (haimatitēs lithos, "blood-red stone").

    Ochre is a clay that is colored by varying amounts of hematite, varying between 20% and 70%.[5] Red ochre contains unhydrated hematite, whereas yellow ochre contains hydrated hematite (Fe2O3 • H2O). The principal use of ochre is for tinting with a permanent color.[5]

    The red chalk writing of this mineral was one of the earliest in the history of humans. The powdery mineral was first used 164,000 years ago by the Pinnacle-Point man possibly for social purposes.[6] Hematite residues are also found in graves from 80,000 years ago. Near Rydno in Poland and Lovas in Hungary red chalk mines have been found that are from 5000 BC, belonging to the Linear Pottery culture at the Upper Rhine.[7]

    Rich deposits of hematite have been found on the island of Elba that have been mined since the time of the Etruscans.
    Ochre and painting being obvious and clear signs of an established cultural cognizance. I see no reason whatsoever to look for a thing given as a gift by God to Man anywhere but at the beginning of Man, unless one should put forth the position that God held back his greatest gift for (x) generations of Man for some Great Reason.

    I am open to such a reason, these are merely my own lines of thinking

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    Jar 1) slight preparation before hand. Filled slightly less than 1/3rd of way with sea salt, a small circle of water was added to the very center of the pile and 3 OMs intoned into it also, then the jar was left in darkness until the next full moon

    Jar 2) filled partway with soil my niece had taken an interest in the day before (she's just turned 3, still very intuitive) just after midnight on the full moon so the soils saturation with the Lunar Light would be maximized.

    Jar 3) is physically empty but Philosophically "full". At the time the experiment was performed (just after midnight of April the 13th) I simply held the jar aloft, open end directly towards the moon. I observed the rays of the moon and them interacting with themselves and obstructing each other and coagulating into an uncertain "pile" of unspecified potential Lunar energy, having been fed by the Sun and Hopefully impregnated by Mother moon, I was aware of its presence without picturing it or holding a concept of it in my mind, simply being aware that it was there. This went on for approx 10-15 minutes. I hope my neighbors didn't look out the window for some reason xD

    I dug 3 small shallow holes in the earth where my niece had spontaneously begun digging the day before and lightly pressed the disturbed earth around the jars leaving the tips slightly above the dirt. Then I went inside until about 330, which is just before the first rays of the Sun would begin peaking out and disturbing the dew/mundi I was hoping to catch more of in my experiments.

    All 3 jars are currently in a dark box side by side in a room temperature closet that also doesn't see any light. On the new moon I investigated them briefly and noticed condensation in all 3 jars but it's far too early and my glance far too brief to say what anything is. All 3 could easily be nothing.
    Very cool! Thank you for sharing you experiments with us! Keep us updated!!

    We love pictures!



    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    The understanding I have is that a magnet is required to attract the SM, as SM is not available in use able abundance naturally, and that this SM after being collected may be Putrefyed and Distilled and Coagulated and Rectified and Purified all in and of itself, in one Vessel, and that once properly treated as such became the Universal Solvent or Menstruum or Alkehest.

    That said I have not produced a Stone myself. However I think it would be fair to bid others who have not produced one either to refrain from absolute statements about what is where and used for which what.
    ...Of course you haven't!

    NO ONE HERE HAS CREATED ANYTHING WORTHWHILE EITHER!

    One of the biggest problems this message board has is its absolute obsession with "SM" (Spiritus Mundi). Some guy back in 2011 started a thread on the subject and for the longest time SM has become this website's favorite word (...empirical being the new buzzword, and decknamen before that).

    For as much as it has been discussed, one would think we would have furthered our understanding of SM but such, as you can see, this is sadly not the case. In fact almost nobody has displayed a clear understanding of the subject, and even less have ever seen Spiritus Mundi with their own eyes.

    Why is the focus so hard on Spiritus Mundi within this forum?



    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    Be sure, Schum, that if I don't reply yet it is because I value your responses enough to hold a response of my own until I have had time to read all of it and reference the books and authors you mention. Don't think I don't notice a pile of gold when it's put before me!

    I love reading. Lege, Lege, Relege etc
    "Ora, Lege, Lege, Lege, Relege, Labora et Invenies" (Pray, Read, Read, Read, Read Again and You Shall Find) Great quote! Feel no need to rush with a reply or even reply at all. Alchemy takes a long period of time and tedious amounts of study to properly comprehend unless guided by an Initiate. At the end of the day, what is a week of study time? Barely a blink of an eye I say!

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    The understanding I have is that a magnet is required to attract the SM, as SM is not available in use able abundance naturally, and that this SM after being collected may be Putrefyed and Distilled and Coagulated and Rectified and Purified all in and of itself, in one Vessel, and that once properly treated as such became the Universal Solvent or Menstruum or Alkehest.
    A magnet is not always required.
    SM is abundant naturally in fact. It is everywhere and anytime. But there is a trick here no one gets.

    After being treated as such, as you said, it is not the Universal Solvent. It is already one when pure and just collected. What you described is the confection of the Stone.


    Take care.
    Salazius

    http://dartigne.blogspot.com/

    My Works

    "I want to transmute everywhere" ~ The Spirit of Alchemy.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Salazius View Post
    A magnet is not always required.
    SM is abundant naturally in fact. It is everywhere and anytime. But there is a trick here no one gets.

    After being treated as such, as you said, it is not the Universal Solvent. It is already one when pure and just collected. What you described is the confection of the Stone.


    Take care.
    I am not aware of any way to collect raw SM in my own hands. It is my (vague) understanding that a Vessel of some kind is needed, I would assume that could be the same thing as what you used as a "Magnet" or Attractant.

    Which brings me back round to my original blocking point. What vessel could hold a Universal Solvent, and/or how is the Magnet made to Congeal and "liquify" and every other descriptor given.

    Is there a root or branch you could give my to explore that will lead to comprehension of this trick you speak of?

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    I am not aware of any way to collect raw SM in my own hands. It is my (vague) understanding that a Vessel of some kind is needed, I would assume that could be the same thing as what you used as a "Magnet" or Attractant.

    Which brings me back round to my original blocking point. What vessel could hold a Universal Solvent, and/or how is the Magnet made to Congeal and "liquify" and every other descriptor given.

    Is there a root or branch you could give my to explore that will lead to comprehension of this trick you speak of?
    The idea of the "magnet" is identical to an hygroscopic that attracts water... if you leave a glass of potassium hydroxide, you will collect water.
    A non magnetic way would be filling a bowl with ice and placing the same glass in the center of the ice, you will collect water too, but there is no "magnet".
    More or less a similar logic applies. So if you want to collect water from the air, you can do it by using several different techniques. There isn't just ONE way.

    The trick mentioned by Salazius is not different than the "3 golds" of the Hermetic Triumph: http://www.levity.com/alchemy/triumph5.html
    (1. an Astral Gold. 2. an Elementary Gold. 3. a metallic gold).

    I never saw any author or person claiming to have obtained the first in the preliminaries, always the second. The "trick" involves something similar to going from the second to the first. So Salazius is right.

    The spirit that is captured, at least in ALL the cases I know, is always similar to the second kind of gold (maybe someone is getting the first one directly, I never heard of such thing, but I can't say that it's impossible... I simply never heard anyone even claiming to have done it... nor I saw a book that claims that such thing is possible).

    The vessel is (in most cases) a glass vessel. Some old texts in a tricky way offer a BIG hint (i.e, Sincerus Renatus in his "The True preparation of the Philosopher's Stone" when he speaks about the "Materia Remota" -chapters 1 and 2- says something very specific that can only lead to a simple idea... He uses 2 vessels, one inside the other, which is OK... but the hint is given when he has his "Materia Remota" and has to do something very specific with the smaller vessel).

    As Salazius said, the Spiritus Mundi that is captured is not the Universal Solvent, but its precursor... knowing the "trick" of going from the "captured Spiritus Mundi" to the "Universal Solvent" is almost like knowing it all.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    I am not aware of any way to collect raw SM in my own hands. It is my (vague) understanding that a Vessel of some kind is needed, I would assume that could be the same thing as what you used as a "Magnet" or Attractant.

    Which brings me back round to my original blocking point. What vessel could hold a Universal Solvent, and/or how is the Magnet made to Congeal and "liquify"(...)

    Is there a root or branch you could give my to explore that will lead to comprehension of this trick you speak of?

    There are many ways of attractions, and many ways of manifestations.

    Study Nature. How it holds it.

    I gave hints in the "Spiritus Mundi" thread on this forum. And in fact, I just repeated what other ancient alchemists said.


    Make tests, and never get bored.
    Salazius

    http://dartigne.blogspot.com/

    My Works

    "I want to transmute everywhere" ~ The Spirit of Alchemy.

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