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Thread: Eastern Concepts of Ascension and Alchemy

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiorionis View Post
    I have heard differently, but it's probably depends on the style. In the ones I've heard about and study, the kata are to develop specific muscle memories, so that during competition or 'real-life' applications the body can respond without thinking. It is a matter of merging the map with the landscape so that the two become one.
    I want to try to avoid going off on a tangent about styles that think katas have real life applications, so I will content myself to this here and say again that Eastern martial arts are by and large theoretical.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/w...a-tai-chi.html

    As I said, I am not familiar with the specific breathing practices you mention. To my perspective they are handled in a first person, hands on method, I have no particular focus on a hierarchy or structure per se. When someone does try to learn yoga from me personally I try to show them the way of what I call Natural Yoga. I tell them to listen to their body, because it is telling them more than any sutra ever could. It shares more wisdom with them everyday than a thousand masters ever could tell you in a lifetime. Your body will tell where your blockages and tensions are, it will show you the best way to heal them if you will listen.

    I was not even aware Kundalini was a practice until I was explaining my methods of allowing the Root Chakra energy to unlock and ascend to the Crown, and then when that can be done reliably to Ankh it back into the Heart Chakra, and someone told me that even my description of the spiraling energies resembled an already established system.

    I will outline the only meditation I have ever been walked through technically speaking, and this was by Erik Paulson who I say without hesitation is one of the great Adepts walking the Earth. If you aren't familiar with it Kio, I bet it will be right up your alley. If I may be so bold, this is in fact one of the major steps we are all supposed to accomplish this side of the grave.

    MerKaBa is centered at the base of the spine and has a direct effect on the kundalini energy that is also housed there. According to the Vedic understanding of the 'Kundalini Energy', it is coiled like a serpent' 3 & 1/2 times at the coccyx and under certain conditions will rise to the top of the body in an 'awakening' experience.

    It essentially means that this dormant energy flows freely up the spine and has a positive effect on the various chakras centers of the body. The MerKaBa facilitates this process of kundalini awakening by aligning the energy fields in that location and facilitates greater movement of energy throughout the body. It also opens blocked channels and cleanses the chakra points.
    There are 17+1 breaths, where the first six are for balancing the polarity, the next seven for proper pranic flow through the entire body. The further breaths are for shifting the consciousness from 3rd to 4th dimension and finally the last three breaths is for re-creating the rotating Merkaba within and around the body. The last breath is not taught. Once each day, enter into this meditation, until the time comes when you are a conscious breather, remembering with each breath your intimate connection with God.
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...0FT-gdem4/edit





    We have gone from Spirit going through it's 7 motions and arrived at the Flower of Life. The next step is to do what we've just done, which is to repeat and overlay the pattern as if each circle was it's own center point. The way this is usually shown to us is like this:


    (Turkey)


    (India)

    A very interesting suggestion of a very elaborate Vesica Piscis here on the Temple of Osiris in Egypt:



    If we cut away that embyro-esque outer layer (something absolutely forbidden to tell anyone not Initiated into the Mysteries for most of our modern timeline) here is what it looks like:








    (I'll assume most of you are familiar with how the Platonic solids relate to the Elements)

    Here is a beautiful image summarizing several forms of knowledge in their entirety:

    Last edited by Visceral; 05-13-2017 at 05:03 AM.

  2. #32
    The earliest Rabbinic merkabah commentaries were exegetical expositions of the prophetic visions of God in the heavens, and the divine retinue of angels, hosts, and heavenly creatures surrounding God. The earliest evidence suggests that merkabah homiletics did not give rise to ascent experiences – as one rabbinic sage states: "Many have expounded upon the merkabah without ever seeing it."[7]

    One mention of the merkabah in the Talmud notes the importance of the passage: "A great issue—the account of the merkavah; a small issue—the discussions of Abaye and Rava [famous Talmudic sages]."[8] The sages Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zakkai (d. c. 80 CE) and later, Rabbi Akiva (d. 135) were deeply involved in merkabah exegesis.
    The Talmudic interdictions concerning merkabah speculation are numerous and widely held. Discussions concerning the merkabah were limited to only the most worthy sages, and admonitory legends are preserved about the dangers of overzealous speculation concerning the merkabah.

    For example, the secret doctrines might not be discussed in public: "Seek not out the things that are too hard for thee, neither search the things that are above thy strength. But what is commanded thee, think thereupon with reverence; for it is not needful for thee to see with thine eyes the things that are in secret."[9] It must be studied only by exemplary scholars: "Ma'aseh Bereshit must not be explained before two, nor Ma'aseh Merkabah before one, unless he be wise and understands it by himself,"[10] Further commentary notes that the chapter-headings of Ma'aseh Merkabah may be taught, as was done by Rabbi Ḥiyya. According to Yer. Hagigah ii. 1, the teacher read the headings of the chapters, after which, subject to the approval of the teacher, the pupil read to the end of the chapter,[11] although Rabbi Zera said that even the chapter-headings might be communicated only to a person who was head of a school and was cautious in temperament.[12]

    According to Rabbi Ammi, the secret doctrine might be entrusted only to one who possessed the five qualities enumerated in Isaiah 3:3 (being experienced in any of five different professions requiring good judgement), and a certain age is, of course, necessary. When R. Johanan wished to initiate R. Eliezer in the Ma'aseh Merkabah, the latter answered, "I am not yet old enough." A boy who recognized the meaning of חשמל (Ezekiel 1:4) was consumed by fire (Hagigah 13b), and the perils connected with the unauthorized discussion of these subjects are often described (Hagigah ii. 1; Shab. 80b).[12]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkabah_mysticism

  3. #33
    Within Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma-eternal teachings), all teachings defer to the spiritual authority of the Vedas. The Vedas are a series of ancient teachings of which the Rg Veda is considered the oldest. While the Vedas has become an obscure text to the general public, it is filled with powerful spiritual teachings and continues to have much relevance to this day.

    What the western scholar does not understand is that the Vedas can be interpreted in a variety of ways, and its meanings are multi-dimensional. From the Hindu viewpoint all truth must be founded or substantiated with the Vedas, or at a minimum, the Vedas is the final authority on spiritual matters and teachings are questionable if they contradict Vedic teachings. Within the Vedas is hidden a science and understanding of the kundalini energy. In reality, it is the oldest record of kundalini yoga. While it is not exactly the kundalini yoga currently known to humanity, all the foundational elements pertaining to a kundalini awakening are contained in the Vedas.
    But the most important Vedic deity associated with the kundalini is Agni and Surya. Agni is the kundalini energy, while Surya is not the kundalini per se, it is the kundalini in its triumph or full awakening. Surya is the kundalini having moved to the crown chakra. The source of all Shakti. This is often referenced as the sun being hidden and revealed in the Vedic journey.

    While some systems place more importance on the heart chakra than the crown chakra, this is not in conflict. In reality, the heart and crown chakra are connected via a nadi known as chitta nadi. This explains the strong association with the sun (Surya) with the head (crown chakra) and the heart (anahata chakra).
    The awakening of the kundalini involves the prana, not just prana itself, but specific forms of prana, which are represented by the Ashvins. The Ashvins represent healing, which is one of the qualities of the two major forms of prana. It is the two major forms of prana (the Ashvins) that is responsible for the kundalini awakening; and their ruler is Vayu, the lord of prana.
    While Vedic yoga does address kundalini yoga per se; it does so in a variety of different forms. Vedic yoga clearly uses pranayama, mantra, and mediation. There are three questions that come to mind: 1) Did the Vedic teachings contain yogic techniques that have become lost over the millennia? 2) Was the physical a part of the system, but preserved orally through other traditions? 3) Or was the Vedic form of yoga from the last world age, and did not require the initial preparatory techniques that would become critical in our current age? The current evidence points to probably all three.

    Clearly, there is evidence that techniques such as mantra, pranayama, and meditation where part of the Vedic culture. In fact, the entire Sanskrit alphabet can be practiced using various techniques to awaken the kundalini energy. We see postures such as sitting crossed legged (siddhasana posture, which is very important to present day yoga) present. It is not difficult to speculate that the other postures would have been persevered by other systems just as additional systems are preserved by the different Vedangas and Upavedas[2] today. Though it is a samhita, it would not be expected to carry information on physical techniques, but yoga tradition has preserved this information and eventually evolved into what initially appears to be a separate system. But in reality, it is an extension of the Vedas as the Vedas is the spiritual authority as well. In addition, we know that several Vedic seer families have a yogic connection such as Kashyap, Vamadeva, Vashishta and others.
    The most compelling evidence comes from the Baghavad Gita itself. Within the Gita (4.1) Krishna states “…Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam, vivasvaan manave praatha manur ikshvaakave `bavit.” Krisha states, loosely translated, “I have spoken this yoga to Vivasvat, Vivasvat passed [communicated] it to Manu, Manu related it to Ikshvaku.” Here we see a clear reference to yoga’s connection to the Vedic lineage, and yogic information being passed downward through the traditional Vedic lineage. This is a compelling statement that a form of yoga was present within the oldest Vedic traditions.
    both this passage and the next contain elements that strengthen the position I am presenting in my other thread, "a gift". Here Krishna himself taught yoga to humanity and in the next we can see there was obviously an early necessary association with Fire, which is a great sign of the Alchemical Art and has since been lost



    In reality, modern day kundalini yoga is just another form of the Vedic Yajna or ritual. It contains internal and external elements, though not the physical fire of the Vedic ritual, it relies on a more internal manifestation of fire and favors more internal approaches achieved through outward techniques such as asana. Kundalini yoga within modern society is an expression of the first words of the Rg Veda 1.1.1, AUM Agnim ile, which means, “I worship Agni.”
    http://www.vedicpath.com/Articles/Ku...onnection.html

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    Alas for this curse of Babel, for what appears so clear to me remains a mystery to you, and what you consider cursory knowledge is yet out of my reach.
    Funny that you mention Babel, one of my *fetishes* is to investigate the systems that attempted to find a solution (from pseudo-languages based on Logic like the many attempts of Kircher to "channeled" languages like the Lingua Ignota of Hildegard von Bingen or the Enochian of John Dee & Edward Kelley)... but also the limits of language itself (classical negative theologies... to Wittgenstein).

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    I always find that when one wants the truth of the WHY of a thing, it is best to investigate that things source. The Root will explain the Branch and Flower.
    Exactly, that's ALWAYS my approach. Sadly my knowledge of European of European assimilated philosophies is miles away from non-European ones (I was going to write "western" and "eastern", but it would not be accurate for my situation). I probably never understood Yoga because I don't really understand the Hindu Religion (and I mean in its more exoteric form, which obviously means that I understand even less its esoteric forms).

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    One of the best ways, I understand Fulcanelli recommended a similar sort of approach although I don't fully comprehend the totality of his method, is to trace the etymology of the word you're questioning. This will often reveal more about the thing itself, especially the WHYS and WHERE's and WHEN's, than the people who most commonly use the phrase or language are even aware of. Indeed, their particular cultural bias will usually blind them to any investigation of such roots. Most cultures assume their pieces of cultural identity are uniquely theirs, and have always existed as such, and never question the origins and would almost certainly take it as sacrilege should you ever suggest any origin aside from their (uninvestigated) presumption. I'm sure you witnessed this in the cult you mention if you ever brought up what you're telling us here.
    We can put Fulcanelli aside, but other than that, it is one of my favorite methods... a philology.
    Yeah, that Yoga Cult I've known was militantly atheist, but still used SOME of the Hindu Religion, but giving it a weird interpretation (short version: the Hindu Gods are actually normal people who lived some 5,000 to 6,000 years ago and their stories were known and some of them invented valuable things, but then India was invaded by a very illiterate tribe, the Aryans, who allegedly did something similar to what the Romans did with the Greeks, a conquest that involved an assimilation of the conquered culture, but they were so illiterate that confused the stories and assumed that these persons were Gods, a concept that didn't even exist for the "first aboriginals" of India... so, in short, Shiva was simply a man who invented Yoga, but not a God, it was "turned into a God" by the conquerers. This is NOT a description of my ideas, but the ideas taught there in that Cult).

    Other than that, the philological method is one of my favorites.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    However there are nearly an infinite variation of yogas. But, in the same way that there are nearly as many alchemical procedures as there are alchemists, yet there is one true aim to alchemy and one common goal to all alchemists, upon which they conduct their experiments according to the completeness of their understanding of that ONE ORIGINAL, COMMON goal. In the same way, all yogas in straighter or wider or shorter or longer or clearer or more muddled ways seek the SAME THING, and this original thing is the same as the goal of alchemists, albeit in what we could call a different Realm or Kingdom. It is my position that the TRUE STONE of Wisdom requires a mastery of both of these, or any construction will necessarily be considered incomplete.

    Specifically, the type of yoga one needs, the one most closely related to the original, complete Art handed down by our beloved Hermes/Thoth, is known today as Kundalini Yoga. This is a specific application of one of the original branches of Vedic yoga known as Hatha yoga, which is what the Western mind is generally in need of.
    Oh... I am completely lost with the East. It is funny, the type of Yoga I learnt was allegedly the "true" Kundalini yoga, but Hata Yoga was VERY despised... I never managed to understand the reasons, but I didn't investigate much.

    My main interest here is to find a path i which the "athletic" condition of a body is relevant, because it's very different from what I know. It is very obvious that in lots of western schools the PURIFICATIONS were and are important (I can mention the strict vegetarianism of the pythagorean school, of the vegetarianism of the Hermetic Religion and the vegetarianism of the early neo-platonism -The most obvious case would be the letter of Porphyry to his friend who had decided to give up vegetarianism... And the tone of Porphyry shows that his conception was that his friend had given up philosophy as a whole... and it's an interesting letter because a modern Animal Rights activist would find nothing of value there, since none of his arguments is even slightly related to "animal rights").

    So it is interesting for me to try to find out why an element that I would call "athleticism" is mostly absent in the "western" traditions (European actually), and is so vital in the Eastern ones. You probably know the classic pythagorean definition of Philosophy and the parable of the Olympic games... Everyone goes there: some people are athletes and go for the prizes and rewards, some others are merchants and go there to make a profit by other means... and then there are passive spectators who go there to observe nature... and the passive spectators are equaled with the Philosophers.

    So I am interested in this definition that you bring, in which the athletes would be closer to the philosophers than the spectators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    I don't need to know you well to read your words. You yourself said you are inexperienced in this area. I will switch to using the terms Yin and Yang. Mental practices and mediations such as you provide descriptions of are all nearly exlusively Yin. You yourself said they involved dropping the Body(physical, Yang) component as soon as possible. Hatha yoga, specifically Kundalini yoga and the Merkaba practice all involve going IN to the Body, or merging as much as of the Yin into as much as of the Yang as one possibly can. What your female friend was doing when you pointed to a spot on her body was channeling Yin energy (Chi) through her Body and converting it into Yang energy (Ki) on the spot and at will. This is all something anyone can learn to do and the reason why she was able to do it with no formal training in the Mysteries as we might know them is because these are Natural energy systems, and if you investigate you will find neither Yin nor Yang is itself the originating essence or force. Your friend did not possess a secret warehouse of Chi stored up somehow and there is no secret supply house of Ki energy available either, although one is interchangeable for the other infinitely. The Root energy is what makes the Kundalini and Merkaba practices work.
    Oh, I am beginning to get what you mean. I am using terms which are quite foreign to me, but I know ways in which the "Ying" is translated into "Yang", but not truly in an athletic expression... which brings an interesting question: "Why not into an athletic expression?". So, yes, I have a very undeveloped area there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    Zoas, you are truly among the Wise and I hope I have aided you in this, or at least allowed your intuition or inner Muse to perhaps speak more clearly to you.
    It is funny how a word resonates. The idea of "Wise" has a very clear meaning to me, so I would not use it. Other than that, yes, what you are saying helps me to understand some things that go way deeper than you can imagine (I don't really mean it in a very philosophical way, but I can see how some things that you mention apply to my life). So you are helping me to think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    Less delicate, or more realistic, or involves ACTIVE use of the techniques, all of which makes it closer to Source. There are many many many fantastic minds that are addicted to martial arts precisely because Judo, or Jiu Jitsu, or wrestling or boxing or muay thai will all, without exception, provide the exact same Void state that their creativity flows from, and all creative people are most certainly addicted to being creative.
    Yes, I do not disagree at all. I am understanding that my notion of what you call "Yang" is VERY different from yours, but such thing doesn't mean that I discard your vision, which is probably more "complete".

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    You would find Jiu Jitsu especially is full of super polite nerds with absurd video game stats who have no problem rolling you into a pretzel and making it fun. xD
    Jiu Jitsu... WOW.... You are suggesting for me one of the most "brutal" martial arts. My first reaction when I saw what it was was a very strong rejection. So, that's interesting. Maybe the way to get in touch with that undeveloped area is by a direct confrontation with something that I intuitively find, at least, very "not-my-style".
    It would be by far more challenging for me than you can imagine, but that's somehow interesting. I will try to find a good school once I return from a trip that I will be making quite soon.

    I learnt a lot from different relationships... another one involved an artist who was into African traditions since she was a child (there is some sort of fashion about them nowadays, but in her case it was something that began in 1984, when such thing wasn't "the hype"). She worked with a system that used 3 "guardian spirits"... one in the front, one in the back and one above the head. She did several ceremonies for me as to show me what she knew, but one of the first ones was to find the 3 spirits. The results confused her... the spirits in her tradition have genres (female or masculine) and the typical case is that males have 3 male spirits and females have 3 females ones... and if there is an exception, it is often in the back. In my case she found a female spirit in the front, a female spirit "above the head" and a male spirit in the back. I was not quite surprised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    Yes indeed I am, although Musashi Miyamoto puts it better than I ever can. I cannot recommend his Book of Five Rings enough. I will have to conduct a separate post upon it I suppose but it is only 5 chapters long, probably less than 100 pages and it will contain different wisdom every time you read it.
    Thank you. The suggestions are welcome, because it's truly an area where I know NOTHING (I can't name a single author of Eastern mysticism -the closer I know would be Yukio Mishima, but I got interested in his due to the oddity of his biography and his art -his way of being openly gay in a context that was not exactly "gay friendly", his obsession with the Samurais, and certainly his attempt to perform a coup d'etat with an army of only a few friends of him armed only with swords... which finished in his ritual suicide following his Samurai ideals).

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    I doubt very much those things were random. Cults utilizing siddhis will use them as a distraction much like a hypnotists watch. There are thought scattering and manipulation techniques that are very easy to slip in to a persons head in such a maintained hypnotized state (yes even being lightly mesmerized counts) and most of those cults will further specialize in spreading their propaganda this way. Probably the most famous example is how Charles Manson manipulated people this way (taking advantage of drug and sex induced states to provide "suggestions") all the way to murder on his behalf.
    In my case, I have some 20 years of experience with non-cultist initiatic Orders... So it's quite impossible to manipulate me because I have something quite solid to compare with (I do not mean anything mystical... but absolutely empirical... i.e, things like worshipping a person, following his rules in every area of life, having an index of books which are forbidden to read, the prohibition to discuss the contents of the books of this worshipped person... all that stuff was a HUGE "no no no" for me).

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    I would love to know all about them
    Probably it's too long to explain. I have my own rules about the Orders that can interest me:
    -NEVER homophobic, Xenophobic, Misogynist, Racist or Politically oriented Orders.
    -NEVER Orders based on the ideas of a person who is worshipped (without caring if the person is dead or alive... and I don't care if it's Blavatsky or Crowley).
    -NEVER Orders in which the phrase "that's above your grade" would be pronounced.
    -NEVER Orders in which people struggle to get shitty medals and grandiloquent titles.
    -NEVER Orders that try to have some sort of political influence.
    -NEVER Orders in which the neophytes / apprentices / etc are not allowed to speak in equal terms with the person who has the highest grades possible.
    -NEVER Orders which are invasive with the private life of any person (i.e, who are your friends, what you enjoy to do, how you like to dress, with whom you enjoy to speak, who is your partner and the kind of relationship you have, etc... that's your business and no Order has the right to even offer an "opinion" on the subject).
    -NEVER Orders in which the person who are not involved with the Order are considered "inferior" in any way.

    Other than that, almost ANY Order I know has an external Order and an Internal Order... the first one is mostly about learning a language made of symbols and using them in basic ways... the second one is mostly about going a bit further and somehow making it easier (contrary to what anyone would assume, the "first orders" are always more "baroque" than the second orders, which are by far more "minimalist").


    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    The most spiritually advanced persons I have ever met myself were without exception martial artists and aside from Erik they all avidly avoided (or were plain ignorant of) anything to do with spirituality. It's like they give you half the equation and you need to go out and find general philosophy yourself (works the other way as well). Martial arts is known to be (philosophically) the Path by Fire. I have also heard it described as a short path to the Source, in that if you're practicing the arts I mentioned (or the ones your girlfriend did if done at a VERY high level, not generally speaking) you will be face to face with Source on a daily basis, in that you will be face to face with Reality daily, in that martial arts (and yes yoga too in a less intense way) is a very It-Did-or It-Didn't happen. Much like chemical or alchemical labwork, no?
    I can absolutely agree with the idea that some of the BEST initiates I know are not actually "initiated" into ANYTHING in a formal way (which also means that the grades that a person has or doesn't have in X Tradition mean nothing to me).
    In the idea of facing the source, I can follow you.
    In the idea of translating such thing to an "athleticism".... I am learning from you, but I assume I will have to learn it by myself. The Jiu Jitsu suggestion is excellent actually, mostly because I am horrified by the idea... but that's somehow a good sign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    I wouldn't say you're interfering at all, Kio has already shown he understands the link itself perfectly and I would be willing to bet he even has some interesting notions himself about how they relate to alchemy.
    Thank you. We have VERY different perspectives, but that's very interesting for me. There is a whole area that I have never developed (or even understood)... So it is interesting to talk to someone who has done it and somehow force myself to challenge some ideas I have. After a not quite long trip that is coming in the near future, I will do my best to come to terms with Jiu Jitsu. I know I will curse you and hate you and I will ask myself what the hell I am doing there (I am somehow joking here)... but I assume that I will try to find the core of that undeveloped area of mine. It won't be easy, but it can be quite interesting.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Funny that you mention Babel, one of my *fetishes* is to investigate the systems that attempted to find a solution (from pseudo-languages based on Logic like the many attempts of Kircher to "channeled" languages like the Lingua Ignota of Hildegard von Bingen or the Enochian of John Dee & Edward Kelley)... but also the limits of language itself (classical negative theologies... to Wittgenstein).

    Exactly, that's ALWAYS my approach. Sadly my knowledge of European of European assimilated philosophies is miles away from non-European ones (I was going to write "western" and "eastern", but it would not be accurate for my situation). I probably never understood Yoga because I don't really understand the Hindu Religion (and I mean in its more exoteric form, which obviously means that I understand even less its esoteric forms).
    Ah, I hear about Wittgenstein all the time but haven't actually read him. The hindu religion contains some very useful elements but over time was corrupted with so many various competing gods and ideologies that even by the Buddhas time it was essentially spiritually useless except for the original Vedic texts and oldest sutras which were miles less accessible then than they are today. The most straightforward text I've read about it is the Bhagavad Gita, otherwise I focused much more heavily on Buddhism as what the Buddha did was essentially distill the best aspects of Hinduism with his own personal insight into reality and form it into a very coherent system that dropped as much of the "mysticism" and guru worshipping as he could possibly manage.

    My biggest gripe with Hinduism is essentially one issue but contains several aspects, namely

    1) They insist Samsara is eternal, and unbreakable, karma is inescapable and in this life nothing can be done to improve your situation
    2) Enlightenment descends through hierarchy and with the approval of a "guru" only
    3) Inherent social class system develops from this understanding that essentially justifies slave labor with a "well they obviously deserve it for being born into that family"

    I don't want to hate on the Hindu religion per se, but that amount of ideas that will supposedly bring you to Nirvana that comes out of there are laughably ridiculous. The idea that holding your hand above your head for 20 years somehow accumulates spiritual merit or chitta is a most malicious deception and almost certainly derives from a false guru being accepted as true by a horde of ignorant persons in need of a leader.

    However the foundational works of the Hindu faith are extremely valuable, especially, as I said, the Bhagavad Gita:

    http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/

    In short, it is essentially the conversation between a prince on the verge of a battle that will make him King of all India, his revelation of the Universal Truth by the direct hand of Krishna, his conflict of engaging in war after knowing this truth and Krishna explaining the true nature of his existence and human duties in the face of this truth.


    We can put Fulcanelli aside, but other than that, it is one of my favorite methods... a philology.
    Yeah, that Yoga Cult I've known was militantly atheist, but still used SOME of the Hindu Religion, but giving it a weird interpretation (short version: the Hindu Gods are actually normal people who lived some 5,000 to 6,000 years ago and their stories were known and some of them invented valuable things, but then India was invaded by a very illiterate tribe, the Aryans, who allegedly did something similar to what the Romans did with the Greeks, a conquest that involved an assimilation of the conquered culture, but they were so illiterate that confused the stories and assumed that these persons were Gods, a concept that didn't even exist for the "first aboriginals" of India... so, in short, Shiva was simply a man who invented Yoga, but not a God, it was "turned into a God" by the conquerers. This is NOT a description of my ideas, but the ideas taught there in that Cult).

    Other than that, the philological method is one of my favorites.
    I am confused by the division amongst Alchemists as to what I can only refer to as the authenticity or usefulness of Fulcanellis work.

    However I find it interesting how close that yoga schools ideas actually are to the truth, we find many many references throughout history to the historical characer known in the bhagavad gita as Krishna being originally human, and then through his own efforts becoming as a God, and eventually even the Gods marveled at his wisdom and command of nature. I can't imagine what the timeline they have is based on as it obviously isn't the physical historical record.


    Oh... I am completely lost with the East. It is funny, the type of Yoga I learnt was allegedly the "true" Kundalini yoga, but Hata Yoga was VERY despised... I never managed to understand the reasons, but I didn't investigate much.
    Yes I find this disdain in many schools of yogic thought and it's just hilarious to me everytime. Every school of yoga teaches asanas in one form or another, and therefore contain hatha yoga in lesser or greater degrees. The idea that a person could practice kundalini while avoiding asanas and therefore hatha yoga can only stem from a confused mind obsessed maintaining lineages and false walls between traditions, where one who has their eye truly open sees only the connections and truths shared between the teachings.

    My main interest here is to find a path i which the "athletic" condition of a body is relevant, because it's very different from what I know. It is very obvious that in lots of western schools the PURIFICATIONS were and are important (I can mention the strict vegetarianism of the pythagorean school, of the vegetarianism of the Hermetic Religion and the vegetarianism of the early neo-platonism -The most obvious case would be the letter of Porphyry to his friend who had decided to give up vegetarianism... And the tone of Porphyry shows that his conception was that his friend had given up philosophy as a whole... and it's an interesting letter because a modern Animal Rights activist would find nothing of value there, since none of his arguments is even slightly related to "animal rights").
    Bodhidharma is often associated with and reportedly often quoted the Lankavatara Sutra:

    The most important doctrine issuing from the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra is that of the primacy of consciousness (Skt. vijñāna) and the teaching of consciousness as the only reality. In the sūtra, the Buddha asserts that all the objects of the world, and the names and forms of experience, are merely manifestations of the mind:

    On the contrary my teaching is based upon the recognition that the objective world, like a vision, is a manifestation of the mind itself; it teaches the cessation of ignorance, desire, deed and causality; it teaches the cessation of suffering that arises from the discrimination of the triple world.[2]

    Because the world is seen as being "mind-only" or "consciousness-only", all phenomena are void, empty of self (atman) and illusory:

    There are four things by the fulfilling of which an earnest disciple may gain self-realisation of Noble Wisdom and become a Bodhisattva-Mahasattva: First, he must have a clear understanding that all things are only manifestations of the mind itself; second, he must discard the notion of birth, abiding and disappearance; third, he must clearly understand the egolessness of both things and persons...

    As to the first; he must recognise and be fully convinced that this triple world is nothing but a complex manifestation of one's mental activities; that it is devoid of selfness and its belongings; that there are no strivings, no comings, no goings. He must recognise and accept the fact that this triple world is manifested and imagined as real only under the influence of habit-energy that has been accumulated since the beginningless past by reason of memory, false-imagination, false-reasoning, and attachments to the multiplicities of objects and reactions in close relationship and in conformity to ideas of body-property-and-abode.
    As to the second; he must recognise and be convinced that all things are to be regarded as forms seen in a vision and a dream, empty of substance, un-born and without self-nature; that all things exist only by reason of a complicated network of causation... As to the third; he must recognise and patiently accept the fact that his own mind and personality is also mind-constructed, that it is empty of substance, unborn and egoless.[3]
    Here the Buddha very clearly warns us against holding onto some misconception of "out there" vs "in here". The Body is the Mind is the Body and both are devoid of any self existence or inherent nature, as they are both derivatives and manifestations of the Void, or Spirit, or that Eternal Ineffable Thing, which Zazen points directly to.

    However, the Buddha makes clear that the Buddha-nature is not a self (atman) and is empty of self-nature. He states that it is merely a useful means (upaya) of teaching the dharma to others:

    The reason why the 'Tathagatas' who are Arhats and fully enlightened Ones teach the doctrine pointing to the tathagatagarbha which is a state of non-discrimination and image-less, is to make the ignorant cast aside their fear when they listen to teaching of egolessness. It is like a potter who manufactures various vessels out of a mass of clay of one sort by his own manual skill and labor ... that the 'Tathagatas' preach the egolessness of things which removes all the traces of discrimination by various skillful means issuing from their transcendental wisdom, that is, sometimes by the doctrine of the 'tathagatagarbha' , sometimes by that of egolessness ... Thus, 'Mahamati', the doctrine of the 'tathagatagarbha' is disclosed in order to awaken the philosophers from their clinging to the idea of the ego. Accordingly, 'Mahamati', the 'Tathagatas' disclose the doctrine of the 'tathagatagarbha' which is thus not to be known as identical with the philosopher's notion of an ego-substance. Therefore , 'Mahamati', in order to abandon the misconception cherished by the philosophers, you must depend on the 'anatman-tathagatagarbha'.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%E1%...1ra_S%C5%ABtra

    Finally, here the Buddha explains the the Body is truest form of communication, and the only means of communication in Reality (continued):

    One of the recurrent emphases in the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra is a lack of reliance on words to effectively express reality:

    If, Mahamati, you say that because of the reality of words the objects are, this talk lacks in sense. Words are not known in all the Buddha-lands; words, Mahamati, are an artificial creation. In some Buddha-lands ideas are indicated by looking steadily, in others by gestures, in still others by a frown, by the movement of the eyes, by laughing, by yawning, or by the clearing of the throat, or by recollection, or by trembling.[56]

    In contrast to the ineffectiveness of words, the sūtra instead stresses the importance of the "self-realization" that is "attained by noble wisdom"[57] and occurs "when one has an insight into reality as it is":[58] "The truth is the state of self-realization and is beyond categories of discrimination".[59] The sūtra goes on to outline the ultimate effects of an experience of self-realization:

    [The bodhisattva] will become thoroughly conversant with the noble truth of self-realization, will become a perfect master of his own mind, will conduct himself without effort, will be like a gem reflecting a variety of colours, will be able to assume the body of transformation, will be able to enter into the subtle minds of all beings, and, because of his firm belief in the truth of Mind-only, will, by gradually ascending the stages, become established in Buddhahood.

    So it is interesting for me to try to find out why an element that I would call "athleticism" is mostly absent in the "western" traditions (European actually), and is so vital in the Eastern ones. You probably know the classic pythagorean definition of Philosophy and the parable of the Olympic games... Everyone goes there: some people are athletes and go for the prizes and rewards, some others are merchants and go there to make a profit by other means... and then there are passive spectators who go there to observe nature... and the passive spectators are equaled with the Philosophers.
    It is indeed strange that this is so, but I believe there is a simple concept that will explain this division as well as the complete lack of either types of knowledge amongst the north american dwelling cultures, and it is that after the Younger Dryas event cataclysm(s) occurred the survivors (who we would recognize as our universal cast of varying cultural mythological heros) very simply did not have every piece of every puzzle they had previously had mastery of. They very probably exited the few "vaults" that had not been utterly destroyed or drowned or buried under hot ash and mud and then boiling rain and went for whatever few remaining other storehouses of technology and records they could find. There was very probably massive disagreement about whether to use their scarce resources to continue their mission of helping the humans Ascend or to be worshipped as gods until the end of time. There was probably more than one species doing this same thing at one time, and that is how we originally ended up with the competing Empires model we've been handed through history.

    In short, I believe the survivors that took refuge near Egypt/Turkey probably preserved the secret of creating the physical portion of the Stone, which conferred upon them great riches and the ability to create massive works of stone and architecture with a relatively small population to draw on a workforce from (I think the Western Art as I describe here being preserved explains the cathedral building mystery) and I believe the Survivors that "landed" near India and China most probably preserved the secret of the Internal Stone, which allowed a great many of them to live conventionally absurd lengths of life and build on many inventions and ideas because of these life spans, and this is why China far outstripped the scientific discoveries of the rest of the world for millennia.

    [So I am interested in this definition that you bring, in which the athletes would be closer to the philosophers than the spectators.
    The philosophers indeed may be the spectators, but I am concerned more with where God may be found directly.

    Perhaps Socrates can help here:

    No man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.”
    Also Plato:

    In order for man to succeed in life, God provided him with two means, education and physical activity. Not separately, one for the soul and the other for the body, but for the two together. With these two means, man can attain perfection.
    And Luke 17 20-21

    And the Pharisees demanded of Him, "from whence comes the Kingdom of God?" and He answered them, "The Kingdom is not coming with Signs that are seen, nor will they say, Lo, it is Here! or Lo, it is There! For Behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.

    Oh, I am beginning to get what you mean. I am using terms which are quite foreign to me, but I know ways in which the "Ying" is translated into "Yang", but not truly in an athletic expression... which brings an interesting question: "Why not into an athletic expression?". So, yes, I have a very undeveloped area there.
    I will expound here my understanding of the Yin and the Yang:

    Yin is inherently Mental. All conceptions, ideas, thoughts, memories, speculations and daydreams are Yin.

    Yang is all things physical, the Body, the Objects of Touch and Perception such as grass, sunshine, animals.

    Yin sustains all life as it is very conductive towards Source Energy, or the emanations of the Void. Yang maintains all forms as it hardly conducts Source Energy or Void emanations whatsoever. All the varied forms arrayed before us are both Yin and Yang, the one supplies the energy to nourish and sustain the form, yet these are all inherently possessed of no internal existence. We use Yin and Yang in the same way we use top and bottom to designate parts of your foot. I could not remove the top from the bottom, if I tried I would only succeed in moving the defined areas around and causing you much discomfort. So in reality there is only your foot, yet for purposes of conversation it is useful to discriminate between "areas" of the form. Form itself being only a temporary suspension of Yin into a more or less solid Yang.

    And so any meditation whatever that teaches you to convert Yin into Yang in a conceptual way is in fact only showing you further applications of Yin exercise. Until it involves in some way the use of the body it remains conceptual, and therefore Yin. We might also use Chi (internal) and Ki (external) to distinguish between our hands on application of these energies and the eternal revolving Nature we see around us, which we generally control very little and is still partaking of the Yin and Yangness.



    It is funny how a word resonates. The idea of "Wise" has a very clear meaning to me, so I would not use it. Other than that, yes, what you are saying helps me to understand some things that go way deeper than you can imagine (I don't really mean it in a very philosophical way, but I can see how some things that you mention apply to my life). So you are helping me to think.
    Ah, I can see where the word would have a specific application and thank you for allowing me to correct this error in my thought. Perhaps I should say you have your eyes and ears open and are truly and diligently attempting to decipher the Mystery in front of us. Namaste good soul!

    Perhaps I could use the term bodhisattva, but not yet Bodhisattva.



    Jiu Jitsu... WOW.... You are suggesting for me one of the most "brutal" martial arts. My first reaction when I saw what it was was a very strong rejection. So, that's interesting. Maybe the way to get in touch with that undeveloped area is by a direct confrontation with something that I intuitively find, at least, very "not-my-style".
    It would be by far more challenging for me than you can imagine, but that's somehow interesting. I will try to find a good school once I return from a trip that I will be making quite soon.
    Ha! It is actually known as the "Gentle" art. I hope the Choke documentary didn't throw you off, Rickson was competing in Vale Tudo or no rules style matches to prove the effectiveness of Jiu Jitsu as a true self defense art, but Jiu Jitsu itself is not trained with any strikes or eye gouging or any of that foolery. I bet I can imagine exactly how challenging it will be, as I have been exactly where you are on this path myself. One of the great things about JJ is everyone has been the first day white belt, everyone has dealt with just feeling like you're drowning on the mats and because of this they are all very humble and gentle with new students. It's not like a boxing gym where they basically throw you to the wolves and see if you can make it. I will link some of my favorite videos on this subject, please listen to these people talk about it and do not take my word for it. This is one of my favorites for Sam Harris pointing out that JJ is the real life version of what Aikido claims to be:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmRflw57Sbo

    here is one more featuring clips of high level competitors, so as you watch it remember they are fighting for sponsorships and thousands in prize money and are being much more aggressive than anyone will ever be just practicing in the gym:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrA2mDqmf2c

    I learnt a lot from different relationships... another one involved an artist who was into African traditions since she was a child (there is some sort of fashion about them nowadays, but in her case it was something that began in 1984, when such thing wasn't "the hype"). She worked with a system that used 3 "guardian spirits"... one in the front, one in the back and one above the head. She did several ceremonies for me as to show me what she knew, but one of the first ones was to find the 3 spirits. The results confused her... the spirits in her tradition have genres (female or masculine) and the typical case is that males have 3 male spirits and females have 3 females ones... and if there is an exception, it is often in the back. In my case she found a female spirit in the front, a female spirit "above the head" and a male spirit in the back. I was not quite surprised.



    Thank you. The suggestions are welcome, because it's truly an area where I know NOTHING (I can't name a single author of Eastern mysticism -the closer I know would be Yukio Mishima, but I got interested in his due to the oddity of his biography and his art -his way of being openly gay in a context that was not exactly "gay friendly", his obsession with the Samurais, and certainly his attempt to perform a coup d'etat with an army of only a few friends of him armed only with swords... which finished in his ritual suicide following his Samurai ideals).



    In my case, I have some 20 years of experience with non-cultist initiatic Orders... So it's quite impossible to manipulate me because I have something quite solid to compare with (I do not mean anything mystical... but absolutely empirical... i.e, things like worshipping a person, following his rules in every area of life, having an index of books which are forbidden to read, the prohibition to discuss the contents of the books of this worshipped person... all that stuff was a HUGE "no no no" for me).
    Based on what you've said, forgive me for saying that girl must have been FIRE in bed for you to put up with such nonsense for so long xD And I would bet if the programming wasn't taking she was just practicing her indoctrination technique on you.

    I love the book of five rings so much I will post some of my favorite quotes here. What we must remember is that Miyamoto was an expert in fighting and nothing else. He is not speaking in allegory. He is not using metaphors or allusions. He is in no way speaking in tricks or riddles WHATSOEVER. He is speaking about the reality of fighting another human to the death with wooden or metal implements EXCLUSIVELY. That any part of his wisdom applies to anything else is only proof of his mastery of the SINGLE TRUE PRINCIPLE OF THE SINGLE AND TRUE WAY.

    there is nothing outside of yourself that can ever enable you to get better, stronger, richer, quicker, or smarter. Everything is within. Everything exists. Seek nothing outside of yourself.”
    ― Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings
    “The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them”
    ― Miyamoto Musashi,
    Actually I'll just indulge myself with a full on tangent about the Book of Five Rings:

    Musashi's most well-known duel was in the seventeenth year of Keicho, 1612,
    when he was in Ogura in Bunzen province. His opponent was Sasaki Kojiro, a young man
    who had developed a strong fencing technique known as Tsubame-gaeshi or "swallow
    counter", inspired by the motion of a swallow's tail in flight. Kojiro was retained by the lord
    of the province, Hosokawa Tadaoki. Musashi applied to Tadaoki for permission to fight
    Kojiro through the offices of one of the Hosokawa retainers who had been a pupil of
    Musashi's father, one Nagaoka Sato Okinaga. Permission was granted for the contest to
    be held at eight o'clock the next morning, and the place was to be an island some few
    miles from Ogura. That night Musashi left his lodging and moved to the house of
    Kobayashi Tare Zaemon. This inspired a rumour that awe of Kojiro's subtle technique had
    made Musashi run away afraid for his life. The next day at eight o'clock Musashi could not
    be woken until a prompter came from the officials assembled on the island. He got up,
    drank the water they brought to him to wash with, and went straight down to the shore. As
    Sato rowed across to the island Musashi fashioned a paper string to tie back the sleeves
    of his kimono, and cut a wooden sword from the spare oar. When he had done this he lay
    down to rest.

    The boat neared the place of combat and Kojiro and the waiting officials were
    astounded to see the strange figure of Musashi, with his unkempt hair tied up in a towel,
    leap from the boat brandishing the long wooden oar and rush through the waves up the
    beach towards his enemy. Kojiro drew his long sword, a fine blade by Nagamitsu of Bizen,
    and threw away his scabbard. "You have no more need of that" said Musashi as he
    rushed forward with his sword held to one side. Kojiro was provoked into making the first
    cut and Musashi dashed upward at his blade, bringing the oar down on Kojiro's head. As
    Kojiro fell, his sword, which had cut the towel from Musashi's head, cut across the hem of
    his divided skirt. Musashi noted Kojiro's condition and bowed to the astounded officials
    before running back to his boat.

    It was about this time that Musashi stopped ever using real swords in duels.
    He eventually realized he had become Invincible in the martial sense and never participated in another duel again. He has a confirmed number of duels of at least 60, reportedly many more, plus many many open field battles he participated in.

    Musashi is known to the Japanese as "Kensei", that is "Sword Saint". Go Rin No
    Sho heads every Kendo bibliography, being unique among books of martial art in that it
    deals with both the strategy of warfare and the methods of single combat in exactly the
    same way.
    The book is not a thesis on strategy, it is in Musashi's words "a guide for men
    who want to learn strategy
    " and, as a guide always leads, so the contents are always
    beyond the student's understanding. The more one reads the book the more one finds in
    its pages.
    Musashi wrote "When you have attained the Way of strategy there will be not one
    thing that you cannot understand" and "You will see the Way in everything"
    . He did, in
    fact, become a master of arts and crafts. He produced masterpieces of ink painting,
    probably more highly valued by the Japanese than the ink paintings of any other. His
    works include cormorants, herons. Hotel the Shinto God, dragons, birds with flowers, bird
    in a dead tree, Daruma (Bodhidharma), and others. He was a fine calligrapher, evidenced
    by his piece "Senki" (Warspirit).
    The actual introduction to the Book of Five Rings, I will literally end up quoting the entire work if I go on so I will stop here:

    I have been many years training in the Way of strategy called Ni Ten Ichi Ryu, and now
    I think I will explain it in writing for the first time. It is now during the first ten days of the
    tenth month in the twentieth year of Kanei (1645). I have climbed mountain Iwato of Higo
    in Kyushu to pay homage to heaven," pray to Kwannon,"* and kneel before Buddha. I am a
    warrior of Harima province, Shinmen Musashi No Kami Fujiwara No Geshin, age sixty
    years.

    From youth my heart has been inclined toward the Way of strategy. My first duel
    was when I was thirteen, I struck down a strategist of the Shinto school, one Arima Kihei.
    When I was sixteen I struck down an able strategist, Tadashima Akiyama. When I was
    twenty-one I went up to the capital and met all manner of strategists, never once failing to
    win in many contests.


    After that I went from province to province duelling with strategists of various
    schools, and not once failed to win even though I had as many as sixty encounters
    . This
    was between the ages of thirteen and twenty-eight or twenty-nine.

    When I reached thirty I looked back on my past. The previous victories were not
    due to my having mastered strategy
    . Perhaps it was natural ability, or the order of heaven,
    or that other schools' strategy was inferior. After that I studied morning and evening
    searching for the principle, and came to realise the Way of strategy when I was fifty.

    Since then I have lived without following any particular Way. Thus with the virtue of
    strategy I practise many arts and abilities— all things with no teacher.'
    To write this book I
    did not use the law of Buddha or the teachings of Confucius, neither old war chronicles
    nor books on martial tactics. I take up my brush to explain the true spirit' of this Ichi school as it is mirrored in the Way of heaven and Kwannon. The time is the night of the tenth day
    of the tenth month, at the hour of the tiger*^ (3-5 a.m.)
    You can order versions without the commentary this one has which would make it much easier to read, but heres a version of the whole text:
    https://archive.org/stream/MiyamotoM...Rings_djvu.txt

    Probably it's too long to explain. I have my own rules about the Orders that can interest me:
    -NEVER homophobic, Xenophobic, Misogynist, Racist or Politically oriented Orders.
    -NEVER Orders based on the ideas of a person who is worshipped (without caring if the person is dead or alive... and I don't care if it's Blavatsky or Crowley).
    -NEVER Orders in which the phrase "that's above your grade" would be pronounced.
    -NEVER Orders in which people struggle to get shitty medals and grandiloquent titles.
    -NEVER Orders that try to have some sort of political influence.
    -NEVER Orders in which the neophytes / apprentices / etc are not allowed to speak in equal terms with the person who has the highest grades possible.
    -NEVER Orders which are invasive with the private life of any person (i.e, who are your friends, what you enjoy to do, how you like to dress, with whom you enjoy to speak, who is your partner and the kind of relationship you have, etc... that's your business and no Order has the right to even offer an "opinion" on the subject).
    -NEVER Orders in which the person who are not involved with the Order are considered "inferior" in any way.

    Other than that, almost ANY Order I know has an external Order and an Internal Order... the first one is mostly about learning a language made of symbols and using them in basic ways... the second one is mostly about going a bit further and somehow making it easier (contrary to what anyone would assume, the "first orders" are always more "baroque" than the second orders, which are by far more "minimalist").

    I can absolutely agree with the idea that some of the BEST initiates I know are not actually "initiated" into ANYTHING in a formal way (which also means that the grades that a person has or doesn't have in X Tradition mean nothing to me).
    In the idea of facing the source, I can follow you.
    In the idea of translating such thing to an "athleticism".... I am learning from you, but I assume I will have to learn it by myself. The Jiu Jitsu suggestion is excellent actually, mostly because I am horrified by the idea... but that's somehow a good sign.
    Source delights in play. The less restricted the play, the more Source delights in it.



    Thank you. We have VERY different perspectives, but that's very interesting for me. There is a whole area that I have never developed (or even understood)... So it is interesting to talk to someone who has done it and somehow force myself to challenge some ideas I have. After a not quite long trip that is coming in the near future, I will do my best to come to terms with Jiu Jitsu. I know I will curse you and hate you and I will ask myself what the hell I am doing there (I am somehow joking here)... but I assume that I will try to find the core of that undeveloped area of mine. It won't be easy, but it can be quite interesting.
    There are great schools all over the world but if you live close enough to attend a 10th Planet Jiu Jitsu school I would be SO JEALOUS. The closest one to me is hours of driving away.
    Last edited by Visceral; 05-16-2017 at 06:06 AM.

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