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Thread: Those the Gods wish to destroy......

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Awani View Post
    I would say no. Most past, present and future alchemist go mad because of mercury and other substances... or the greed for gold.


    Could it be argued that the greed for gold is the beginnings of a certain kind of madness. One which grips the whole world in suffering and environmental destruction currently ( Rampant capitalism).

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmuldvich View Post
    You specifically used the phrase 'multiple dualities' though... Does this, in your opinion, different at all from 'multiple realities'?

    I don't give the slightest care about what any "gods" have 'decided'
    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    It seems you are not interested at in the question but prefer to start one of your own may I suggest initiating a fresh thread were I would participate.
    You guys are so funny/childish here about starting new threads. It cracks me up!

    I moderate a message board with more members (also more active members) than Alchemy Forums and we never have any issues like you guys seem to think you have.

    It took you more effort, time, and energy to reply with your 'start a new thread' response than it did to answer my question outright

    If you go back and re-read my initial reply to your thread, you will see that I did answer the question you presented in the OP.
    "I don't give the slightest care about what any "gods" have 'decided'"
    I'll throw you a bone and give you a more detailed response since that is obviously what you are looking for and apparently needing in your life right now...

    The gods do not wish to destroy anything. The phrase is bullshit and based on nothing provable or reliable in this world. Fanaticism, like those wishing to start so many new threads so often, comes in many shapes and sizes as you already know. Remember, before all these new 'Christian Alchemists' were doing their thing in the 1500's and after, countless other Arab Alchemists and other religious belief Alchemists were doing their thing looong before and doing just fine. They didn't give a shit about what the 'gods' had "decided" and they didn't need to because it is unaffectedly irrelevant, just the same as it is today.

    Can you post any references to Alchemists going mad prior to the 1400's?

    No one "needs 'the Gods' to stay balanced personally and in their life" which exactly explains why these Alchemists your present in your original post "went mad". They concerned themselves with something completely irrelevant and unimportant.

    So, I still ask... What to you, Axis, is the difference between 'numerous dualities' and 'numerous realities' with regard to the gods wishing to destroy?

  3. #13
    Shmuldvich you criticism and bluntness, hostility even along with the attempt to shift topic are interesting and feed into the basic idea here. Earlier versions of the saying seem to be about the human need to have Gods and how things can go awry if the Gods are ignored. The more contemporary versions are suggesting that the Gods will first cause insanity in a person whom they wish to destroy.

    Your response Shmuldvich is to say you don't care about the Gods and then seek to change the discussion to a what is the nature of reality type debate. This could be regarded as aggressive then changing the subject to avoid, or maybe just coincidence. Keeping in the Spirit of the initial idea I mischievously ask: is this the beginning phase of the Gods starting to drive you mad?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Shmuldvich you criticism and bluntness, hostility even along with the attempt to shift topic are interesting and feed into the basic idea here. Earlier versions of the saying seem to be about the human need to have Gods and how things can go awry if the Gods are ignored. The more contemporary versions are suggesting that the Gods will first cause insanity in a person whom they wish to destroy.

    Your response Shmuldvich is to say you don't care about the Gods and then seek to change the discussion to a what is the nature of reality type debate. This could be regarded as aggressive then changing the subject to avoid, or maybe just coincidence. Keeping in the Spirit of the initial idea I mischievously ask: is this the beginning phase of the Gods starting to drive you mad?
    All these questions and ruminations are useless simply because no one has any proof whatsoever that any "Gods" really exist (or do not exist, for that matter; it goes both ways.) Therefore it is hardly surprising if people with more pragmatic mindsets simply do not want to waste time delving into such things that will very likely never be answered and move on to things that can actually potentially be proven to be real or false.

  5. #15
    Perhaps you are right JDP. Seeing as I was asked what I think earlier I would say that the Gods do drive people mad as part of the process of destroying them. Furthermore any hubris - specifically dis-belief in the Gods is to potentially invite such attention and bring about insanity and ultimately nemesis.

    This is merely my personal opinion which I cannot empirically prove.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Your response Shmuldvich is to say you don't care about the Gods and then seek to change the discussion to a what is the nature of reality type debate.
    ...Except that is/was not at all my motive or intent. You raised an interesting point with your wording and I was wondering if you chose those words deliberately. Ya know, continuing discussion of this thought-provoking topic you started. I am not sure if English is your native language and that was just the word(s) you happened to use, or if that particular choice of words ('numerous dualities') was chosen deliberately. Not everything is some big conspiracy to change topic...far from it. I was simply partaking in the discussion you poised, just like JDP's *oh god* off-topic yet relevant reply above.


    I am not sure if you glazed over it or didn't see it, but I asked you two questions above. The first question I asked was:
    What is the difference between 'numerous dualities' and 'numerous realities' with regard to the gods wishing to destroy?

    The second question I asked was:

    Can you post any references to Alchemists going mad prior to the 1400's?

  7. #17
    The answers to the two questions you pose.

    1. No real idea what you are asking

    2. Don't know if any pre 1400AD Alchemists went mad or not.

    Your first question goes beyond the basic moral and political philosophy I studied at University decades ago in my first undergraduate year. Also the intricacies to which Kabbalah can lend itself in such a discussion well.... I kind of lost interest in that some time ago excepting as a method of Gnana yoga switching off the mind type thing.

    To properly research your second question I don't think on-line searches Wikipedia etc would cut it. Classical Latin and Greek would be needed plus a readers card for e.g the British library would probably be needed. My wife can read Greek and Hebrew but I am not going to bother her with what should be a light hearted on-line debate.

    Personally I genuinely respect the Gods and looking at the Catholic vs Protestant atrocities over the centuries (monotheism), the crusades (monotheism), and the bitter conflicts between extreme right and left (monotheism vs atheism). Personally I think a little pantheism or even just basic paganism might be beneficial.

    Just looking through YouTube at the motley crew of diverse nutters I do think the Gods drive mad those they wish to destroy.

    I don't know if monotheist Alchemists went mad in days gone by but I do wonder if they could have.
    Last edited by Axismundi000; 06-27-2017 at 09:32 PM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    I think that existence contains numerous dualities so aspiring to a pure absolute monotheism or a pure absolute atheism in a life filled with polarity and duality may well be the problem. The aphorism: Those the Gods wish to destroy they first send mad is I think true.
    I'd agree with that. But through my own person bout with insanity, I would rephrase the argument as:

    Those the Gods wish to raise, are first destroyed.

    Consider the mythology of Herclues and every other Hero character who first made a decent into Hell. They're strengthened there.

    So if many historical Alchemists were also monotheist were they perhaps not entirely sane?

    This is very broad I know. Essentially if a singular perspective is unhealthy and many Alchemists had a singular view were they adopting a flawed approach?
    In the beginning God created heaven and hell.
    Last edited by Kiorionis; 06-27-2017 at 11:59 PM.
    Art is Nature in the flask; Nature is a vial thing.

  9. #19
    I know, that I hung on the windy tree all the nights of nine,
    Wounded by spear and given to Odhinn; myself to myself,
    on that tree, which no man knows, from what roots it rises.
    They dealt me no bread nor drinking horn, I looked down,
    I took up the runes I took them screaming,
    I fell back from there.

    I would suggest there is a difference between spiritual initiation/crisis and the Gods driving you mad as part of the process of destroying you. To the outsider they may initially appear identical but as the situation unfolds a difference becomes gradually discernible.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    In as far as most historical literature on Alchemy tends to have a monotheistic spiritual view when one is present: Does it follow that Alchemists were generally mad?
    I think this goes back to my own view that alchemy is an offspring of shamanism, lacking in one important aspect which is the pantheistic understanding of the cosmos. I think the lack of this in alchemy is perhaps because alchemy sprung up in a society dominated by monotheism.

    Although it could be argued that alchemy is not that monotheistic really, considering the chaotic multitude and diversity of phrases, words, planets, minerals, metals and pantheon of characters they all refer to that reach mythological status over time (Hermes, Paracelsus, Bacon etc.).

    When an alchemist write God in singular it is - to me - just "his" way of writing Gaia. You don't write Gaia in plural. So there is a monotheism in the beginning and in the end... but not in the middle. Like I said before, in Hindusim the diversity of Gods are simply different manifestations of the same One.

    I am not certin I yet understand why you ask about alchemists being mad?

    “In an insane world a sane man must appear insane.” - C. William King

    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.


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