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Thread: The Purge

  1. #21
    Alright, I really didn't mean to get so far off track here so I will try to clarify, summarize, and all around condense the my actual points. The prelude to this is I never said I thought one or the other was "stronger". Only you have been doing that. I asked for an in depth comparison and what I got was the cliches I mentioned, which brings me to my first actual point:

    1) What reason do you have for claiming the "purge" is anything beyond a basic and natural reaction to inedible compounds? Would you at least be willing to consider occams razor and ethnopharmacology suggest this is more likely than "tissues" travelling through the blood stream to the stomach to be physically removed? By cliche I mean this is a similar tale told in hot yoga classes and a jillion other traditions and not one bit of it is empirical beyond say yoga helping you sweat a lot.

    2) I provided quotes earlier about how God and the divine mystery and science are not at odds. Any philosophical position not based on dualism demands the same kind of integration.

    I am glad you had the experience you did. I have had several like it, from specific lifetimes to existing for eons as mineral compounds and everywhere in between. The summary of my insights would be to study the great scientist philosophers and Buddhas/Arharts/Yogis, with a very careful step by step approach just as the one they used. You have had I'm certain the experience of ego death and the "resetting" of your life, all I'm saying is when we build on that most sturdy of foundations we must place each stone thereafter with the utmost precision, care and skill. I do not say shamanism provides no benefits, but to me it is similar to the "introduction" you say mushrooms are. It is certainly the first area a new psychonaut should explore, because we must nuture our connection to the planet and mother nature. Certainly.

    However, the scientific method is our friend, ask Archimedes, or Pythagoras, or even our dear Hermes/Thoth. So long as it is not artifical separated from philosophy, it is our true light in the dark, our Promethian Fire.

  2. #22
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    Please note that all my answers in this post is my own outlook, since I do not speak for anyone else. Therefore there is no law or dogma regarding these topics... and perhaps a topic on its own, but scientific fact is an opinion in my opinion, and many of those opinions I agree with... momentarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    The prelude to this is I never said I thought one or the other was "stronger". Only you have been doing that.
    I never did... that debate stems from this quote by you earlier (which is strength related because a mushroom trip cannot compare in my view):

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    I imagine there's not a ton of discernable difference between a heroic mushroom trip and a proper dose of Aya spirit.
    As for the rest of what you wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    What reason do you have for claiming the "purge" is anything beyond a basic and natural reaction to inedible compounds?
    Direct experience, and near direct experience and non-direct experience... although mainly direct. That Ayahuasca and Iboga (and Iboga in particular) kills parasites of physical, or non-physical, matter is as close to fact as any fact I can adhere to.

    As for your yoga reference, I am sure you are aware that many of those practices stem from shamanism in some way or another... especially the cleansing/sweating bit, which is a common technique in shamanism. And it works.

    You still do not fully grasp what the Purge is, based on your posts. It is not only vomiting. It can be shitting, pissing, sweating, crying, snot, gas... it can occur in a wide variety of ways. And it is certainly not due to the substance being in your gut in the sense that you argue.

    These medicine plants are similar to a vaccine... and you can actually feel it integrate in your body weeks, or months, after you ingested in. With Iboga you can have it physically present in your body for years.

    I am not aware of any scientific studies of this, and I am not really that interested in them even if they existed. Proof is actually irrelevant to me, if I am without doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    Would you at least be willing to consider occams razor and ethnopharmacology suggest this is more likely than "tissues" travelling through the blood stream to the stomach to be physically removed?
    No I would not, because it is simply not "true".

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    I provided quotes earlier about how God and the divine mystery and science are not at odds.
    Science is not at odds with the divine, but it will never explain it either... or give any proof. There is a science to music, but such science does not explain, nor create, beautiful music. I am sorry, but science for me is fun and at times useful... but it is a dead end street if anyone wants to understand the self, the universe and the divine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    I do not say shamanism provides no benefits, but to me it is similar to the "introduction" you say mushrooms are. It is certainly the first area a new psychonaut...
    My initial comment to this is simply LOL.

    I do not know what your "shamanistic" experiences are, and since you do not know me personally let me explain something, which will hopefully put some background to my answer.

    I question everything, even everything I have just said. Even that which contains zero doubt, is put before me on trial. I am always in a state of playing Devil's Advocate, to the annoyance of anyone that spends time with me. If I dive deep into Buddhism and then spend time with Buddhists, they will probably - after a few weeks - think that I hate Buddhism based on the words coming out of my mouth. So what I am about to say took, for me, a lot of personal courage, suffering and humility to accept since I am from a very atheistic and scientific background.

    Shamanism [to use this simplified term] is the most effective technique the Spiritual Pilgrim can use on this Earth. Alchemy is its modern form, but lacking [so it seems] in many of shamanism important aspects, especially if the Alchemist him/herself reject the "inner" work.

    I cannot explain it, and I do not fully understand it... but it works. Shamanism without the Purge is not a practice that I am interested in, because the Purge is such a big part of the experience... at times the Purge itself is the most essential component. If it is due to the plants presence in the stomach [as you say], or if it is for the reasons I say does not matter.

    The Purge has been on more than one occasion the most profound moment in the entire experience... and I have directly felt and seen with regard to myself [and with others] the physical illness leave the body. The Purge is an exorcism.

    What you want to create is an experience where one of the most important bits are taken out is, to me, a joke. It might be great for you, but I am honestly not that interested in it. I have also had a Purge when smoking DMT on one occasion, so you might not be able to escape it regardless.

    One time I drank a very small cup of Ayahuasca and had the most intense night. The following night I drank two full cups and NOTHING happened. Not even a Purge. Ibogaine is Iboga without the Purge, as far as I understand it... and anyone I have talked to - that has tried both - inform me that Ibogaine is NOT the Iboga experience.

    The Purge is drinking Ayahuasca... the Purge is not an effect of drinking Ayahuasca... or eating Iboga. In fact, as you may know, locally it is commonly known as "La Purga", not Ayahuasca.

    That Mushrooms was an introduction for the human race and that Ayahuasca/Iboga is the next level, was just a statement I made regarding your "historical" debate on these substances. Almost a joke. But Shamanism is far from an introduction to me... and I would not even suggest it to beginners. It is the beginning and the end. We Westerners call it Shamanism, because we are morons who need words... it does not need a name, and it is more than simply a religious ritual by some tribe.

    I hope no one confuses white yoga teachers, in some Sunset Blvd. yoga facility, with the direct keys to unlocking the door to the divine mystery. And whilst some say it might be easy, as anyone can just sit down and drink a cup of Ayahuasca... I say it is not easy.

    It might be the most difficult thing a human being can do on this Earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    However, the scientific method is our friend...
    But it will never be our lover.

    Last edited by Awani; 08-11-2017 at 08:35 PM.

    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  3. #23
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    Some "shamans" do not use psychedelics at all. I have spoken with a few, some of a particular Cherokee lineage, who simply laughed at the idea of using psychedelics for initiations or for anything else, for that matter... The ones I know and spoke with do use sweat lodges, though... and they have completely different methods to "connect", without ingesting psychedelics.

    Also, Castaneda, for example, wrote (thorough the mouth of his 'Don Juan' character) that psychedelics are used for the more "stubborn" cases, those who subconsciously "refuse to see", so certain power-plants are used (not without danger) to kick-start those people to 'jump' beyond their limitations. Some people do not have such limitations, or are not as culturally indoctrinated as others... and some are simply 'born with the gift', so to speak... So, the starting conditions may vary, and with them, the requirements for such initiations.

    Personally, I've been through some "hard-core" initiations, of the kind that I was certain I was going to wake up in a mental hospital, IF I was going to wake up at all... Sweating, dizziness, waves of heat and coldness running through me simultaneously, and especially completely losing the notion and the sense of 'self' (to name a few)... No external substances were involved AT ALL, but it was a tumultuous period of my life, an emotional and psychic roller-coaster, so I guess my internal "factory" produced this substances all by itself, when the time was ripe and the moment was right... And I think this is something everybody can do.

    I'm just saying it's not written in stone, is all.

    PS: I just noticed the thread title was changed to "The Purge", so I guess what I wrote above is now a bit more removed from the topic... So I'm just adding that my own experiences did not necessarily feel like a physical "purge", perhaps more like an "annulment of all previous contracts/agreements"

  4. #24
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    As far as I gather most shamanic cultures used to reserve the psychedelic plant to the shaman only... that "others" ingest the psychedelic substance is a later development.

    Native Americans have a long standing tradition with Peyote, and as far as I know they usually don't talk about this openly when "white men" are close by. Psychedelics is, IMO, as big a part of shamanism as any other shamanistic practice. To deny that it is [not saying it has been denied], is simply to deny the full spectrum of shamanism. However that does not mean that a shamanistic practice HAS TO HAVE psychedelics as an ingredient. I have no issue with that aspect. Or anything else really. LOL.

    I would not put much weight behind anything Castaneda wrote or said... unless it is for poetic reasons.

    Nothing is set in stone, true... that is why as many shamans laugh at those that do not use psychedelic plants. Funny isn't it.

    There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground. - Rumi


    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awani View Post
    that does not mean that a shamanistic practice HAS TO HAVE psychedelics as an ingredient.
    This is what I meant. It is not an absolute requirement/necessity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Awani View Post
    I would not put much weight behind anything Castaneda wrote or said... unless it is for poetic reasons.
    Say what you will, but he has a few extraordinary pearls scattered all over. For example, his elaboration on the terms 'Tonal' and 'Nagual' is very hermetic and alchemical. I would even put them in the same boat as 'Sulfur' and 'Mercury', although they represent much more than that... The Tonal is "the geometry of the code" (and as such, it is a passing thing, having a beginning and an end), while the Nagual is the UN-Created

    Quote Originally Posted by Awani View Post
    Nothing is set in stone, true... that is why as many shamans laugh at those that do not use psychedelic plants.
    As long as there's laughter

    Quote Originally Posted by Awani View Post
    Funny isn't it.
    It's all fun and games until someone loses an I

  6. #26
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    I have been thinking about this topic a bit more and I would like to enhance, and partially change, my reply to the following: it is useless to try and understand the nuts and bolts of psychedelics, what is useful is - if they are calling you - is to open your trap, swallow and shut the fuck up... and listen/watch and remember/integrate. LOL.


    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  7. #27
    I mean, I'll try to address more of what you've said but you've already shown what I said correct. You subscribe to an ideology and tradition and this obscures your vision of things. It DOESN'T matter that drinking ayahuasca is "hard". Like at all. You're so deep in this that even though you can't post any proof about these "parasites" or "diseased" tissue you insist they be taken totally for granted. You won't even address that there are a LOT of things you can ingest that will produce vomiting, shakes, the shits, sweating. These are all TOTALLY COMMON reactions to TOXINS. They are all AUTOIMMUNE responses.

    You won't even acknowledge (or haven't been willing to poke at) the known effects of harmala ingestion.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4075715/

    This case was a 45 years old woman who ingested about 50 grams seed of*P. harmala*for hypermenorrhae. She suffered nausea, vomiting, dizziness, tremor, ataxia, and confusion. On physical examination, she had hypotension (BP=90/60 mmHg) with normal heart rate (60 beat/min) and impaired knee to heel test. Her consciousness was reduced without any hallucination. Her laboratory test was normal. She was discharged at good condition 18 hours later.
    Harmaline can induce tremor and convulsion without any increase in spinal reflex excitability. It causes respiratory paralysis and hypothermia, It provokes central nervous system depression as well (Mahmoudian et al., 2002*▶). Other neurological effects of high dose of Harmaline include visual trouble, delirium, loss of coordination, and paralysis (Chen et al., 2005*▶).
    Similar to our case, toxic effects of other cases presented 3-4 hours after ingestion ofP. harmala. All of them suffered nausea and vomiting as the first symptom that followed by neurological presentations such as altered mental state.
    this is not aya. This is one component of Aya taken on its own, totally capable of explaining what you've described.

    I suppose we're done at "proof is irrelevant to me". I want to KNOW. You want to BELIEVE.

    What great wonders for man has belief ever crafted without being rooted in concrete, earthly knowledge I wonder.

  8. #28
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    People 'usually' don't purge from smoking dmt, even with really high breakthrough doses.
    So it's probably mostly non-dmt plant compounds causing the purge.

    The nausea can be reduced (not eliminated) by precipitating the tannins with gelatin.

    When you see the black tar-like tannins glued to your container, you will be glad it didn't go in your stomach.
    I scrubbed the container for 30 minutes before deciding to just throw it away. So you might want to use a disposable container rather than a nice one.


    PS....To anyone who uses the smoking method. Do yourself a favor and use a quartz banger in a water pipe. Just like dabbing cannabis oil. Best tool by far.

  9. #29
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    Please note that sources from organisations controlled by the United State federal government is not a source I will even bother to read. It means nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    You subscribe to an ideology and tradition and this obscures your vision of things.
    My vision is certainly not obscured. In that case you have fixed upon a certain idea, and obscured yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    You're so deep in this that even though you can't post any proof about these "parasites" or "diseased" tissue you insist they be taken totally for granted.
    I said I had proof. For myself, for friends... and a bit weaker from people I do not know. And you clearly failed to understand what I tried to explain about the Purge; that it is not only vomiting. I have at times vomited air (energies). You clearly have no experience of the Purge, or your anti-Purge remarks would be different. Your statements does not fit my own experiences at all, and that is why I say - from my perspective - that they are incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    These are all TOTALLY COMMON reactions to TOXINS. They are all AUTOIMMUNE responses.
    There are no such thing as "toxins". As Paracelsus famously said: the difference between medicine and poison is dosage

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    I want to KNOW. You want to BELIEVE. What great wonders for man has belief ever crafted without being rooted in concrete, earthly knowledge I wonder.
    Please don't think you know what I want.

    I do KNOW. And the great wonders you speak of are material and of no value to me. This life is a fleeting fart in a hurricane. I am living on a larger story arc. It is all about the journey of the self through the cosmos. Everything else is irrelevant. Everything is belief. There is no such thing as fact, only the illusion of facts.

    If you want to know, then go find out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
    This is one component of Aya taken on its own, totally capable of explaining what you've described.
    Milk on its own is not Milkshake. If you want to understand something like Ayahuasca studying each chemical component on its own is useless, and IMO a complete waste of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dendritic Xylem View Post
    People 'usually' don't purge from smoking dmt, even with really high breakthrough doses.
    In my case the Purge came from the experience, not the substance.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Advice: the only way to be taken seriously is if you have a few Ayahuasca sessions with a Purge... that is the real scientific method to study these things... (just make sure you don't get that weak Westernised brew).

    It does not matter to me if the whole world wants to drink Ayahuasca and not ever Purge. That's great. There is one important aspect that everyone seems to ignore: the Purge is wonderful

    So even if it is as Visceral claims, then I simply say: and so if it is?

    Last edited by Awani; 08-13-2017 at 09:26 AM.

    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  10. #30
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    Ghislain
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