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Thread: Plant Spagyrics - When a Stone Appears

  1. #21
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    I'll have to check into that article later, maybe tonight. For the most part I've discovered all of this so far through experimental trial and error, but it may shed some light on this mysterious volitile salt that I found in my preparations, even though they differ from some methods. I'm still timid about a full dry-distallation setup.

    The starting material here was juniperus virginicum (not sure on the spelling and too lazy to look it up right now), aka Red Cedar. I used the needles and the berries. I have so much on my clot of dirt that needs to be clear, it seemed a good way to experiment with my processes in a way that I could gather enough material to actually do something with. My "salt" is in the red liquid, as stated, and this is as far as I think this experiment will go, but it will obviously take some time. I might find a way to heat the red very gently, like a heat lamp or something. The cave also includes that cardboard box I thought it was clever.

    Perhaps a million white dragons would have been a better description, and they will need to find their own way into my trap. I'll try to get some pictures later as this progresses. Hopefully we'll see a growing red crystal in the dragon's cave. Their abandoned bounty, and my rectified spagyric stone.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by theFool View Post
    This is an excellent work! Most of us have worked with the "modern Spagyrics" methods and found out that something is missing. IMO a properly made plant stone is the same thing as the stone made from metals or minerals.

    Probably you have already seen this thread:
    http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showt...Masonic-Ritual

    It may give you ideas for what the Salt is.
    Watched both of the videos and read through the thread. I'll have to read up on ORMUS one of these days as everyone seems to be fixated on it. My only concern with using this method on plants is the philosophical justification of using NaOH to tease out the salts. I worry that whatever is floating in that solution is a chemical precipitation, and also what the philosophical reasoning is for the NaOH. It didn't come from the material, or am I mistaken? While NaOH exists (technically) in aqueous of any type of ash-based solution (before the Na compounds are mostly removed by my personal method, I suppose I could keep these next time), I can't think of how NaOH actually concentrates in nature, and it's produced FROM the salts, not used to construct them. I could be totally wrong, just floating this thought. In any case, I don't think my little trixy volatile is the same as the one in the video, as it's prepared somehow by the salt acting on itself. It is always first to dissolve, but also first to attempt an escape if the fire is too hot.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon's Tail View Post
    My only concern with using this method on plants is the philosophical justification of using NaOH to tease out the salts. I worry that whatever is floating in that solution is a chemical precipitation, and also what the philosophical reasoning is for the NaOH. It didn't come from the material, or am I mistaken? While NaOH exists (technically) in aqueous of any type of ash-based solution (before the Na compounds are mostly removed by my personal method, I suppose I could keep these next time), I can't think of how NaOH actually concentrates in nature, and it's produced FROM the salts, not used to construct them.
    The only reason he uses NaOH is to adjust the pH, the same could be done with other salts too. The operation is not important. What I found interesting is that there is a hidden salt inside the ash of the plant. The ways to extract it out of the ash may vary, maybe there is a method that does not require the usage of NaOH.

    You say that you get a volatile salt. Have you been able to volatilize the whole amount of the calcined plant ash or only a small amount? From what you see, do you think it is possible ever to volatilize the whole amount?

    According to chemistry most of the plant ash is potassium carbonate and sodium carbonate. Is it ever possible to volatilize these compounds? I doubt. What can volatilize must be another kind of salt, unknown to chemistry for the time being.

  4. #24
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    That's a question that is still up in the air for me, but plant ash should also contain a bunch of silica, if I'm not mistaken. I'm always a little astonished that it isn't mentioned more. The mass that's left over after leaching is mainly a mix of the silica, and the Calcium Carbonate. CaCO3 has a solubility in water of like .001mg/100mL or something like that. And glass.. well.

    In my experiments with making lots of plant salts from cedar needles, I've moved away from doing anything with the dark salts. I leach the stuff that I want out, which could be 10% or less of the total ash. I could be wrong in doing this but if you calcine "the dark serpent" to a white powder, you will have CaO, which will react slowly with air, back into CaCO3. It's the concrete/cement process, and burnt lime is just as insoluble as it's cousin. My first "stone" long ago when I knew nothing was a tiny chunk of concrete, hehe, with some salt mixed in.

    To answer your other question then, I think the remaining leeched salts, after purification, and carefully evaporated with very low heat, contain two salts, a fixed and a volatile. If the solution goes to a boil, some or all of that volitile salt will escape, and I'm not sure if my results would have been different without. So I have a LOT more testing still to do. I think I can isolate these volatiles a bit at a time. I'm not sure what they are, but from what I've seen they don't look very "salty." i.e. they aren't crystalline. Unfortunately I've never collected enough to test them for much, just a wipe of the finger where they appeared on the glass when the fire was a tad too hot. I don't recall if there was a sharp taste or not.

    Anyway. After my other experiments, I'm convinced now that each herb/plant/etc may have two of each principal. The easy to procure Salt/Sulp/Merc includes both a common plant kingdom of each, and an essence specific to the herb itself. Which is the larger portion I don't know, and I haven't been able to isolate a "special sulphur" according to my process yet. But understand I'm not talking about CaCO3, essential oil, and alcohol when I mention this.

    Procuring the finer salts might be a little tougher (i.e. dispensing with the other chlorides as well maybe), but they might also be representative of the whole plant kingdom, and thus serve as a purified corpus for the sulphur of ANY herb. I believe this to be true, but the herbal spagyricists might run me up a tree for saying that, hehe.

  5. #25
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    I think I missed one of your points. I have yet to find a substance that has the properties of that little volatile. I'm not sure, but I don't think it will deliquesce, yet it seems to be more solvable in water than potassium carbonate, which has my mind running circles. If you find it's trace on a glass, you can run a tiny bit of cool water on it, and it will dissolve INSTANTLY. I've read of no salt in a plant that exhibits this property.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon's Tail View Post
    That's a question that is still up in the air for me, but plant ash should also contain a bunch of silica, if I'm not mistaken. I'm always a little astonished that it isn't mentioned more. The mass that's left over after leaching is mainly a mix of the silica, and the Calcium Carbonate. CaCO3 has a solubility in water of like .001mg/100mL or something like that. And glass.. well..
    Right, the insoluble ingredients are not mentioned usually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon's Tail View Post
    To answer your other question then, I think the remaining leeched salts, after purification, and carefully evaporated with very low heat, contain two salts, a fixed and a volatile. If the solution goes to a boil, some or all of that volitile salt will escape, and I'm not sure if my results would have been different without.
    This happens before or after calcination (or calcination is ommited)? It is peculiar for a salt to resist the fire of calcination but to become volatile when it meets the solvent. In my observations, alcohol was able to carry with it "over the helm" a salt from the ash. This salt follows the alcohol. It appears only when alcohol is left to evaporate slowly.

  7. #27
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    I actually noticed it after the leeching. I was breaking up the salt crystals and found it on the spoon when I pulled it out. After a couple cycles of gentle calcination (all that's needed I find), resolve and filter, and recrystallize, I was being more careful with my heat, and turned it up a little just to see. It was still there, and appeared on the glass. I suppose it's possible that it's K2CO3 and it just got a little "excited" and jumped out with the vapor, but I'm almost certain something else is going on. If you use heat to evaporate salts, and you notice a vapor, block it with anything. It will adhere to it. And you might want to turn your heat down

  8. #28
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    Okay, so I was ready to button up the precursor for my next experiment, which I'm going to set up an experiment for. My "dragon cave" is taking it's time and that's cool. I think the best way to do that would actually be to dig a post hole, and then bury most of the fractioning column in the earth, with the mixture left out where the sun can warm it. That's not happening at the moment for a variety of reasons. If I do it in a friend's backyard their neighbors will be asking question, and at the property, some inquisitive armadillo will probably ruin it. I might see if I can find a heating pad or something.

    The current experiments I have running are also to test this idea again, and it's been going well. I've secured what I'm sure is a Mercury and Sulphur from my Mullein. I was going to do the salts today. They were singed by burning off alcohol, but not burnt, and when the fire went out early, I capped them in a jar. I don't use this procedure anymore, but that was then. Anyway. I opened the jar today to start calcining, and the leftover plant matter was wet. It also smelled like it was fermenting. Not sure if because of residual alcohol or what, unless it caught some yeast bugs while it was cooling down. I'm now pondering the deeper meaning of using this "depleted body." I also have a pot of dried herb that I can use, or just say "salts are universal" and dip into my Cedar salt stash. Once I collaborate all of this information, I'll open a new thread for my bee-balm experiment.

  9. #29
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    I was going to start a new thread, but it's related to this one, basically verification of the experiment here by a different means. I'm going to be testing a lot of things, and I have 3 crucibles with purified salt coming down to incubation temp. I'll start the mixing tomorrow.

    Here's the thing. I have a red oil, which I'm calling either the Sulphur or the Sulph/Merc matrix. A yellow (outlined above) that came over the still-head, volitile Sulphur or Mercury, or possible another matrix, as it was mixed really well with it's solvent (also from the plant plus maybe a little water), and I have the water that I collected which has done something a bit... odd.

    I picked it up today to put it in a smaller bottle, and there was something floating in it. I don't have a picture, and it's so faint that I'm sure it won't show up if I try. But after the flask has been sitting for a while, it looks like a tiny wisp of smoke. Like a column of cigarette smoke, right in the middle. This product was distilled many, many times. Is there some kind of impurity that would cause this kind of thing to appear? I was going to toss this out, but figured I would keep it in case the yellow ended up needing a mixing buddy.

    I've been reading up on construction of a "matrix" to "feed" with the salt, but I need to stick to my recipe for now. I'm testing the essence of this mullein herb with some salt saved from the cedar experiment, so in that regard, I'm using my extra salt to see if the salt is a universal body for plant products, which is my theory. Hopefully I'll have some pictures of at least one jelly-ball coming soon for you, and maybe 2.

    I'm just really hung up on this wisp of smoke. Not sure if I should try to filter it out or lock it down in a special bottle, as people have been mentioning precipitating special things from their sacred "water." There's trace amounts of the yellow distillate in there as well, and it's possible some salts came over the helm, but they didn't show up in the condenser. Strange. Any ideas? Common things? Not so common things? Crazy theories? I welcome it all.

  10. #30
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    Little update on my progress:

    I found a way to turn a lamp and some tinfoil into a little incubator. Trying to keep the cave of thorns progressing slowly enough, but showing some progress from day to day. So far nothing to report as I can't see through the dark, bloody-looking mixture. There is some yellow sediment in the bottom of the flask.

    My follow-up to test the method is going a bit slower. I believe I had the incubator temp too low, and the salts started picking up water from the air. That's been fixed. They're at 57C now (and I added a thermometer, hehe. You might think that's too hot, and I did the first time. But too low and all I got was waxy lumps after the first imbibing, and the salts stopped drinking. They didn't form the little jelly-ball, which is what I'm trying to reproduce. I've lost some of my possible over-confidence, and I've become more humble in asking for the aid of the heavens in my work.

    The "yellow" fluid obtained at the end of the distillation being imbibed the first time:

    This mixture didn't penetrate the salts as fast as the "red," but it's waxy paste has also better withstood the temperature change. It's still unpowderable.

    The "red soul" from the tincture:

    This shot was after the salts drinking their fill from the initial imbibing (after raising the temp). More drops were added, and the operation continues, resembling the initial experiment. I'm now wondering about changing the circulation in an attempt to remove the crudest feculence before imbibing, as I'm still having trouble purifying this liquid.

    My salts have also been releasing a "fishy" smell at seemingly random times, so they maybe weren't calcined long enough. The productions in the incubator don't have it, but when I added some to a small glass of another soul product, the smell came out again. Anyone had experience with this?

    Anyway, this project is about wrapped up, and I'm looking forward to starting with the bee-balm. I have a question about that, too. Sometimes in my tinctures I get a glittery precipitate suspended in the solution. Are these raw trace metals from the plant (has not had any heat, just the alcohol solution)? I tried to take a picture of the sparkles, but failed. May try again with a better camera later.
    Last edited by Dragon's Tail; 09-02-2017 at 08:09 PM. Reason: image problems again

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