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Thread: Spagyric Menstruums

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    The Spagyric Mercury is not 'our Mercury', the same I think goes for Sulphur and Salt. How then in Spagyrics is alcohol to be correctly viewed. It is clearly a menstruum which does extract a Sulphur
    Most of my thoughts are born in my work, and I look to the texts to add depth and clarity to my own operations. I would further ask why we call it a "menstrum" since nothing is born in it, but rather it's a vessel for digestion. Ethanol is a solvent, like other solvents. I don't believe that it is really any sort of mercury at all, especially how it's used in spagyrics, but the spagyric art uses the symbolism. They apply these three principals to to what they are doing, in their own way, and that's cool with me, no problem.

    But I also think that the true mercury of any substance is not found in the solvent. No matter how well prepared, a solvent is not the mercury, only a "fire" used to aid in decomposition and extraction. By "fire," I mean a means of creating change, forged through destruction. I think there is definitely a universal menstrum for the vegetable kingdom, but it isn't to be found in common solvents, but rather looking to nature's own "secret fire." The mercury of a substance is contained within it, not in the fire used to separate it. Thus the three principals, with a proper menstrum, will all separate on their own. This is still mostly theory, but I believe I'm making progress.

    In any case, calling the solvent mercury is most definitely a spagyric definition for a spagyric mindset and toolset. It's just a name. I definitely agree that alcohol is not 'our Mercury,' and furthermore nature's secret fire does not use rectified liquor. Whether strengthening the menstrum by means of our labs is aiding nature, or destroying a better process, that's up to the artist. I have no answer for that at this time.

    That said, alcohol (and surely other solvents) do, I believe, have the ability to separate all three principals. How refined they are when they come out of the menstrum is affected by the nature of the solvent or fire used to extract them, but they are there in the solution somewhere, and different solvents will require different means of rectification.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    I think that this simple point of how a menstruum can be a Mercury and can extract the Sulphur is sometimes lost in the more in depth discussions especially when practical illustration is rarely shown. I don't expect people necessarily to show the Universal Mercury it's action but if they do not why discuss it so exhaustively? Because they don't have It?
    When I get close to finding the universal Mercury of vegetables, I'll tell you all about my findings, but beware they may not be what you expect, and you may reject them on principle, if my premises differ from yours.

    The above suggestions are from my own contemplation and lab work, I don't believe I've seen any of this in a book.

  2. #22
    It is certainly true Dragon's Tail that Spagyric work is not Alchemy but the same terminology is often used and this causes confusion. This is why I was carefull to frame my description in Spagyric terms. The reason I think alcohol is a menstruum is because in Spagyric terms it extracts the Sulphur/soul of the plant which is why it is called Mercury for plants in Spagyrics. Plant Alchemy is not Spagyrics and it seems to me that actual Plant Alchemy is more the direction of your work Dragon's Tail. It would certainly be interesting to see your work when you choose to show it. Apart from that I especially look forward to the possibility of your findings conflicting with any paradigm I currently favour.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    My first thought looking at this is that it is vinegar and prepared Hungarian antimony ore, not sure its Spagyric though. Do you know what this is a True Initiate?
    The recipe begins with Aqua Fortis (Nitric acid) prepared through iron or copper sulphate and nitre.
    Formerly known as True Puffer

  4. #24
    Thanks for explaining that, personally I choose to stay away from strong acids at present because my lab is in a spare room in my home. Perhaps if I sort out the garden and setup a lab separate to the house I can do things with more dangerous materials. Again I find myself wondering what relevance a text with replacement cypher symbols that isn't about either plant Spagyrics or Plant Alchemy is relevant for here?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    The Spagyric Mercury is not 'our Mercury', the same I think goes for Sulphur and Salt. How then in Spagyrics is alcohol to be correctly viewed. It is clearly a menstruum which does extract a Sulphur from a plant which can be clearly seen in the image below.
    Alcohol as used in spagyrics is not a menstruum. It is a solvent. Alcohol can become a component in the preparation of an alchemical mestruum. A solvent will extract or dissolve not change the molecular structure of the matter in it. Alcohol does not extract plant sulfur. It dissolves various fats and oils the plant produced along with some flavinoids and alkaloids if it has water in it.

    The plant was macerated and kept in alcohol for a month, once alcohol separated from mixture it is rectified. This milky substance is left behind in the retort after the alcohol has come over the still head. This is in my view the Sulphur of the plant not some kind of cosmic Sulphur, it is Spagyric.
    That view of plant fats and oils being plant sulfur is what is being taught in spagyrics schools. There is nothing wrong with that teaching. It is a good place to start gaining lab experience. Spagyric schools usually say that those fats and oils are "fixed sulfur" and the essential oils of the plant, the terpenes are "volatile sulfur."

    Alchemical Sulfur is only "cosmic" when it is undetermined Anima Mundi. Plants condense alchemical sulfur into a form obtainable by alchemists in the lab. You cannot extract it with any solvents because it has to be created from the plant matter by the action of Fire and purified by the action of Water.

    I think that this simple point of how a menstruum can be a Mercury and can extract the Sulphur is sometimes lost in the more in depth discussions especially when practical illustration is rarely shown. I don't expect people necessarily to show the Universal Mercury it's action but if they do not why discuss it so exhaustively? Because they don't have It? I will always show what I say I have and not say I have a thing if I am not minded to show a it.
    The simplest menstruum originates in the destructive distillation of plant matter or any biomass. That "blessed water" when purified is a menstruum sufficient to make an alchemical vegetable stone. It is the matrix or "mother liquor" in which the stone is congealed after the internal feces manifest and are separated. The theory is to build the menstruum's ability to create new molecules by doping it with other materials. One is alcohol in certain preparations. During its use in the compound menstruum alcohol is taken apart (digested) and elements donated to the new menstrum.

    I have shown some of the alchemical processes I use in action in two videos posted elsewhere on this forum.

    Alchemystic Fire shows the micro particle vapor stream condense into "dry water." From the Dry Water we get philosophical mercury and sulfur from the plant in a form we can determine to the mineral kingdom to use on metals, in theory, because I am still working on substantiating it. Also in that Dry Water stream we receive hidden the alchemical elements Air and Fire and Water. Still in the black mass in the retort we have Earth and Fire. Fire and Water act on Earth and Air. We use Fire and Water to manipulate the matter in accord with the goal to manufacture an alchemical Quintessence.



    Congealing Philosophic Matter shows the simple vegetable menstruum made only from what the plant gives to the Fire and nothing else added. The red vegetable menstrum is the mother matrix which gives birth to the Stone. What is distilled out of the mother liquor into the receiver is pure water pH 7.

    I've done that sweat distillation dozens of times and it is always amazing to see the crystals form in the mother liquor. The difficulty is getting them out.


  6. #26
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    Interesting thoughts z0 K. I think this sentence contains a TON more wisdom than it's innocence lets on:

    Quote Originally Posted by z0 K View Post
    You cannot extract it with any solvents because it has to be created from the plant matter by the action of Fire and purified by the action of Water.
    Your experiments are insightful also. So you're actually drawing a distinction between two ideas that I consider often, whether the mercury is contained in the living matter, or rather created from it. Perhaps there are two paths, that one creates a mercury specific to that vegetable, whereas the other is a mercury of all vegetables, and possibly of other kingdoms as well? One can be used to create a stone of "the plant" while the other creates the stone of the kingdom.

    I like also that you made a distinction that alcohol is not only not the mercury, but it doesn't qualify as a menstrum either. Can you define a menstrum, as you see it? I'm going to continue reading Hollandas' writings, but if there are other texts or quotes specific to this idea, a signpost to such writings would be awesome.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by z0 K View Post
    Alcohol as used in spagyrics is not a menstruum. It is a solvent. Alcohol can become a component in the preparation of an alchemical mestruum. A solvent will extract or dissolve not change the molecular structure of the matter in it. Alcohol does not extract plant sulfur. It dissolves various fats and oils the plant produced along with some flavinoids and alkaloids if it has water in it.



    That view of plant fats and oils being plant sulfur is what is being taught in spagyrics schools. There is nothing wrong with that teaching. It is a good place to start gaining lab experience. Spagyric schools usually say that those fats and oils are "fixed sulfur" and the essential oils of the plant, the terpenes are "volatile sulfur."

    Alchemical Sulfur is only "cosmic" when it is undetermined Anima Mundi. Plants condense alchemical sulfur into a form obtainable by alchemists in the lab. You cannot extract it with any solvents because it has to be created from the plant matter by the action of Fire and purified by the action of Water.



    The simplest menstruum originates in the destructive distillation of plant matter or any biomass. That "blessed water" when purified is a menstruum sufficient to make an alchemical vegetable stone. It is the matrix or "mother liquor" in which the stone is congealed after the internal feces manifest and are separated. The theory is to build the menstruum's ability to create new molecules by doping it with other materials. One is alcohol in certain preparations. During its use in the compound menstruum alcohol is taken apart (digested) and elements donated to the new menstrum.

    I have shown some of the alchemical processes I use in action in two videos posted elsewhere on this forum.

    Alchemystic Fire shows the micro particle vapor stream condense into "dry water." From the Dry Water we get philosophical mercury and sulfur from the plant in a form we can determine to the mineral kingdom to use on metals, in theory, because I am still working on substantiating it. Also in that Dry Water stream we receive hidden the alchemical elements Air and Fire and Water. Still in the black mass in the retort we have Earth and Fire. Fire and Water act on Earth and Air. We use Fire and Water to manipulate the matter in accord with the goal to manufacture an alchemical Quintessence.



    Congealing Philosophic Matter shows the simple vegetable menstruum made only from what the plant gives to the Fire and nothing else added. The red vegetable menstrum is the mother matrix which gives birth to the Stone. What is distilled out of the mother liquor into the receiver is pure water pH 7.

    I've done that sweat distillation dozens of times and it is always amazing to see the crystals form in the mother liquor. The difficulty is getting them out.

    I clearly say that in SPAGYRIC terms I think alcohol can be viewed as a menstruum. You then say it is not from an Alchemical view you are correct. Please do not arbitrarily transport what I have said from Spagyrics into plant Alchemy and then say it is wrong, you are correct in terms of alchemy BUT I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT ALCHEMY I AM TALKING ABOUT THEM IN SPAGYRICS!!! Also I would add that I have never been part of any Spagyrics School or done any kind of formal Alchemy course.

    To be even more blunt then I already have: In Spagyrics (NOT ALCHEMY) the alcohol is a menstruum which extracts the ' Spagyric' Sulphur or soul from the plant. Personally I like how Dubuis puts it; that the alcohol is the cloak the Mercury wears which is to mean that the boundary between Spagyrics and Alchemy is not discreet.

    I get that terms like; menstruum, Mercury, Sulphur, Salt etc in Spagyrics are entirely different and much more limited then those same terms in Alchemy. It is clear that other posters understand this also, they write to this effect. The sheer perversity of knowing the difference between words in Spagyric terms and the same words in Alchemical terms but then jumping them across to say a Spagyric thing is wrong!

    Thanks for the info.

  8. #28
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    Ever since the alchemical works attributed to Villanova, Llull, Rupescissa, etc. started using names like "Aqua Vitae" (one of the earliest names applied by medieval pharmacists & doctors to what we now call "ethyl alcohol", "ethanol" or just plain "alcohol") and referring to the distillation of "white or red wine" as code-words and analogies, a great confusion came to be with people interpreting that what they meant was actually spirit of wine. But a more careful examination of what they say this "Aqua Vitae" does will show that evidently they could not possibly mean the same substance we all know under such names. Alcohol, for example, does not turn into an "oil" that floats over its own "water" and "sediments" by mere digestion alone.

    Yet according to at least one "adept" ("Theodorus Mundanus"), common spirit of wine (i.e. our ethanol/alcohol) can be used to make the secret solvent, provided that you know how to unite it "with another vegetable nature which bears the Character of a trefoyle".

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon's Tail View Post
    Interesting thoughts z0 K. I think this sentence contains a TON more wisdom than it's innocence lets on:



    Your experiments are insightful also. So you're actually drawing a distinction between two ideas that I consider often, whether the mercury is contained in the living matter, or rather created from it. Perhaps there are two paths, that one creates a mercury specific to that vegetable, whereas the other is a mercury of all vegetables, and possibly of other kingdoms as well? One can be used to create a stone of "the plant" while the other creates the stone of the kingdom.

    I like also that you made a distinction that alcohol is not only not the mercury, but it doesn't qualify as a menstrum either. Can you define a menstrum, as you see it? I'm going to continue reading Hollandas' writings, but if there are other texts or quotes specific to this idea, a signpost to such writings would be awesome.
    Thanks, for me a menstruum is the matrix containing alchemical sulfur and mercury the soul/spirit of the matter under investigation. We feed it properly and it grows into or births stones and quintessences depending on how it is attended.

    I would suggest reading Aurora Chymica by Edwardo Bolnest especially his Quintessences of Wine segments in the Vegetable work. Read Philosophia Maturata which is Edward Kelly's translation of St. Dunstan's Book. Ripley had a translation of it titled Key to the Golden Gate. Both Kelly's and Ripley's translations carry the same detailed description of the initial distillation of the starting matter. The descriptions match exactly what you get from the destructive distillation of biomass.

    If you consider alchemy theoretical philosophy in general and not the specific practical lab work then alchemical Mercury is in the living plant, but it cannot be quantified only qualified. Pure Philosophical Mercury is Spiritus Mundi undifferentiated. It becomes determined when it energizes an autonomous information system such as a human being or plant. We can qualify its presence by the expression of intelligence exhibited by the autonomous information system. The Mercury itself cannot be examined physically because of the Uncertainty Principle: it is in continuous motion and any attempt to isolate or stop it will cause the death of that being it animates.

    When a plant dies the unique intelligence of that individual plant motivating it ceases to function because it could no longer circulate through the system due to one obstruction or another. That motivation is the interaction of Mercury and Sulfur or Spirit and Soul. Spirit and Soul generate information systems in the Microcosm nestled in Eternity which is independent of Space/Time. When the information system penetrates into the Macrocosm energy/matter formations congeal around it expressing the information in a multitude of constructs. Spirit and Soul emanate from the Eternal Microcosmic Egg so the unique expression of the individual being, our plant, emanates from the Cosmic Egg which is beyond Space/Time. The death we perceive is merely our observation of the loss of living motivation the plant once exhibited. The Soul/Spirit responsible for the motivation remains where it always has been in the Microcosm.

    Still the deceased corpus retains available Mercury and Sulfur we can take advantage of for our laboratory experimentations. This Mercury and Sulfur is more universal and indirectly obtainable where the unique life expression of that plant was intangible. This is the Mercury and Sulfur of the species. It is released by the fire in destructive distillation. And at the same time it is drawn to the Philosophical Elements atomized with it in the Dragon's fiery breath. It becomes entangled with that matter. It is looking to build a new living corpus. It is no longer determined to the Plant kingdom. You can move it around in the lab if you are careful. You can lose it easily. Then all you will have is the dead body: the molecules it used to manipulate that can be identified by chemical analysis.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Ever since the alchemical works attributed to Villanova, Llull, Rupescissa, etc. started using names like "Aqua Vitae" (one of the earliest names applied by medieval pharmacists & doctors to what we now call "ethyl alcohol", "ethanol" or just plain "alcohol") and referring to the distillation of "white or red wine" as code-words and analogies, a great confusion came to be with people interpreting that what they meant was actually spirit of wine.
    Good to know. When I see 2 or three pages on the production of wine (feels like it anyway) I get convinced that they're talking about wine. I'm going to take a closer look at their "grapes" in context, hehe.

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