Click HERE if you want to join Alchemy Forums!

Patrons of the Sacred Art

+ Reply to Thread
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 45

Thread: Deathlessness

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Bridger Mountains
    Posts
    1,498
    Blog Entries
    4
    Deekshai translates into?
    Art is Nature in the flask; Nature is a vial thing.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    48
    Deekshai translates into?
    roughly Transmission
    in Vallalars resurfaced method it is through the eye's
    http://www.vallalyaar.com/tiruvadi-d...ing-with-fire/

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    154
    Thanks for all the info Kibric.

    Like I said I have no doubt that people before the kaliyuga were masters of spiritual Sciences, yantra, tantra, mantra, Alchemy etc but such things are very very rare in our age. Yes we are more technically advanced but at the same time less spiritually advanced.

    The guy in the vids below seems to be a big deal within this movement...would you regard him as one of the deathless, unageing ones? What will they do when this man dies, will they make-up a story about him flying up to the clouds so not to disappoint followers?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDW80E1TI3k
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpCs...-fPgfC8cSMF0mk

    I remember one of my teachers telling a story about how when a senior guru died that when they cut open his body his insides had not aged, they were like the organs of a 20 year old he said! I had to laugh to myself, well I guess saying that he got old and was no different from others would be disappointing. But the truth is you age from the inside out not the outside in so if you had the interior of a 20 year old then you would also have the exterior of a 20 year old.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    48
    Thanks for all the info Kibric.
    Happy to help

    Like I said I have no doubt that people before the kaliyuga were masters of spiritual Sciences, yantra, tantra, mantra, Alchemy etc but such things are very very rare in our age. Yes we are more technically advanced but at the same time less spiritually advanced.
    They are rare and special when you find them.

    I was taught that the Kaliyuga only exists because we are creating it
    Destiny is for the man who makes his own path, Fate is for the man who is subject to others Destiny

    The busy technological world makes the mind fast and inner monologue annoying , like if we stop thinking we will cease to exist or be unable to function normally
    We can see this is not true from Mushin in martial arts

    This documentary has some great insights into how Hermits use the natural environment to develop wisdom
    Amongst White Clouds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FumyvVOVbaY
    My two favourite quotes from it
    Even the work is peaceful here
    There's nothing really too say
    The guy in the vids below seems to be a big deal within this movement...would you regard him as one of the deathless, unageing ones? What will they do when this man dies, will they make-up a story about him flying up to the clouds so not to disappoint followers?
    No I wouldn't regard him as deathless.
    maybe they will tell stories

    To find a rare and special thing from my experience Methods/transmissions etc..it costs no money is not commercial, will not turn an honest you away, there are no secrets
    all the Knowledge and understanding is available to you, you set you own level of progress , its given into your hand freely.

    I remember one of my teachers telling a story about how when a senior guru died that when they cut open his body his insides had not aged, they were like the organs of a 20 year old he said! I had to laugh to myself, well I guess saying that he got old and was no different from others would be disappointing. But the truth is you age from the inside out not the outside in so if you had the interior of a 20 year old then you would also have the exterior of a 20 year old.
    The inside of his body not aging indicates he was just starting to achieve the Jeevasamadhi state but did not carry on or complete the process before he passed

    If the undisturbed Coffin is found empty this is a sign of The completion of the process
    Lots of Taoist graves used to have a history of being found empty or with only the clothes/swords of the deceased in the coffins
    Last edited by Kibric; 2 Weeks Ago at 12:09 PM.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    US. Missouri.
    Posts
    132
    Kibric.
    Read through your posts.
    You mention Jeeva Samadhi.
    You are correct that this leads to deathless if I am understanding you correctly.

    Jeeva Samadhi is conducting the life force of the body upwards internally into the consciousness is it not?
    The eyes and ears being the two main carriers of consciousness.
    This is a method very rarely spoken about yet is the supreme path is it not ?
    All methods try to achieve this. Some work better than others.
    Yet I believe there is an aspect missing.
    Being able to do this is the preliminary for deathlessness.
    If you cannot do this fervently will success there is not chance for deathlessness.
    Doing so in itself leads to clearing the tension from the body, leads to natural celibacy, and increases the inner fire. The inner fire and the process are actually the same. It is this process which makes inner fire.

    Yet there is an aspect missing.
    It is why death still takes those on the deathless path.
    I apologize for being blunt and crude.
    Pranayama done correctly agitates the entire nervous system making it shake with intensity.
    When the upward course of jeeva into consciousness is strong, one must engage in the most crude act with pranayama.
    There is no worry for your celibacy could not be broken even by the most beautiful women.
    The lowest rushes upwards with heat into consciousness. The bodies skin turns solid red, the body itself engulfed by inner heat of immense strength. Powerful yet not burning. An in this way, the ritual of rejuvenation is done. This is how the blood is made new.
    the jing is turned in chi, which is turned into shen.
    You become brand new.
    yet this itself does not make one deathless. It is being able to do this ritual over and over, and over and over and over.

    This is the cliché legend is it not? That which can only be done when jeeva flows into consciousness with intensity.
    This is what both naropa taught as well as sivananda.
    The hard part is, the way in which you make jeeva flow upwards. For efficiency does matter.
    Efficiency matters for a good reason. The ritual of rejuvenation is in opposition to jeeva Samadhi.
    You are rising up that which most fervently wants to escape. So your ability to make jeeva flow into consciousness strongly must be efficient. The quicker you can strengthen jeeva flowing into consciousness the more you can preform the ritual. The ritual must be preformed many a times before ageing halts.
    I do believe we are on the same topic here. Correct me if I am wrong.

    A note for those who have not known it. Deathlessness is a miracle anyone would seek if experienced.
    The closest you have ever been to it, is when you were a small child. When you moved your body out of joy, not out of obligation. When moving the body felt good because it was new. When being alive is bliss because all experience is vivid and great. To age is to rot. You are literally a fire being dying through the very thing that keeps you living. Burning to death slowly. The cold fire of rotting. through fire you die, an through fire you may renew yourself.
    The eternal living body is mastery of jeeva.
    Correct me if we are not speaking of the same thing. Yet I do believe we are.
    Although half of what I am speaking of is considered taboo. Held for and done only by the greatest of masters. For failure reduces you to a beast. As a man may become deathless, an immortal may become a beast and die. The eternal spirit, if it does exist, is the half way point inbetween physical immortality and being a beast. Immortality is when the body becomes saturated with so much spirit it no longer ages. Yet this is done by making spirit corporal in a sense, and combining it with the body. Hence why I mention the red body. The reddening of the flesh during the ritual. When you take on the appearance of the Christian devil, being of a solid red color for a couple hours.
    Formerly known as Avaar186.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    48
    You are correct that this leads to deathless if I am understanding you correctly.
    Jeeva Samadhi is conducting the life force of the body upwards internally into the consciousness is it not?
    A good explanation of Jeevasamadhi
    Jeeva Samadhi however is entirely different from the other types mentioned above, including Maha samadhi mentioned on another page on this site and can only be achieved by great yogis. It is a very advanced samadhi state closely related to the nirvikalpa samadhi state but then permanent. In Maha samadhi the body will decay over time and the energy will leave the body upon death. In Jeeva samadhi you cannot say the body dies nor can you say it is still alive, however the energy will remain in and around the body as if it were still alive and the body will not decay over time either (or extremely slowly as in some cases). This is a state where Siddhas enters into the samadhi state at their own will after completion of their mission on earth and their mind completely dissolved into the Divine, They stop the functioning of the body and mind.

    This state can be done by them either after being enclosed or before enclosure, as they choose and as per the instructions they give totTheir disciples/followers. Stopping the body functions, the Siddha ensures by his spiritual achievement that the life does not go out of the body. This body will never or extremely slowly decay for thousands of years because the magnetic force in the body now acts as the life force (prana) in this body. In this state of suspended animation the breathing and blood circulation completely stops but the pranic forces keep the body cells nourished and alive. Then as invisible forces, They continue guiding mankind towards spiritual upliftment. There is a possibility that the Siddha can dematerialize his body from the tomb and materialize it elsewhere in some different location and carry out the mission for another span of years! For example Sadasiva Brahmendra has 3 Jeeva samadhi's at different locations all quite powerful and some say he is still around. In Jeeva Samadhi, the physical body of the Siddha remains intact and alive for thousands of years
    https://soonyata.home.xs4all.nl/jeevasamadhi.htm

    The bodies skin turns solid red, the body itself engulfed by inner heat of immense strength. Powerful yet not burning. An in this way, the ritual of rejuvenation is done. This is how the blood is made new
    The cold fire of rotting. through fire you die, an through fire you may renew yourself.
    The eternal living body is mastery of jeeva.
    Correct me if we are not speaking of the same thing. Yet I do believe we are.
    We are talking about using the same element/Fire but different methods

    Each element has a path to deathlessness. Water, Earth, Air, Fire/Light/Inner Heat
    there are various methods for each element which transform the body into an Immortal body

    example, methods that use Water, the end stages are the physical body dissolving into a Water and reforming into a Water/Immortal Body

    The Tummo method is one of the ways that use Fire/Inner Heat
    with The Red Skin being a side effect of the practise
    yet this itself does not make one deathless. It is being able to do this ritual over and over, and over and over and over.
    This Tummo method can be continued after the Physical Immortal body has been achieved, until the yogi's body is either transformed into Fire/Immortal body or the body burns up
    It is very hard to learn because it is very dangerous without Guidance
    Pranayama done correctly
    Penance is also one of the various methods that use the element Fire/Light but the Pranayama is automatic and the Skin doesn't Redden
    The Inner Heat/Fire is Kindled and directed by Jothi(Light/Fire) present in the eyes,
    instead of the body burning up or transforming into Fire/Immortal Body which happens at culmination of the Tummo method
    the Jeevasamadhi state sets in and the body is slowly Dissolved (converted) and reassembled into Light (Gnana Deham)
    Last edited by Kibric; 2 Weeks Ago at 01:06 AM.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Bridger Mountains
    Posts
    1,498
    Blog Entries
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by Kibric View Post
    roughly Transmission
    in Vallalars resurfaced method it is through the eye's
    http://www.vallalyaar.com/tiruvadi-d...ing-with-fire/
    Quite curious, on account of how when someone ingests psuchedelics, the pupils dilate and the third eye is stimulated.
    Art is Nature in the flask; Nature is a vial thing.

  8. #38
    So while planning my visit to those Deathless peeps, I was reading materials on Vallalyaar site (http://www.vallalyaar.com/) for the past two days and it seems to be very contradictory and somewhat creepy:

    1. Deekshai seems to be analogous to Shaktipat but seems very... fakey, basically any person (especially impressionable) can feel "something" when someone other looks into his/her eyes. Meanwhile Deathless Gurus claim to have exclusive rights to grant this Deekshai and, as such, they claim monopoly on Divine Wisdom.

    2. Deathless people seem to greatly disregard any Yoga practices and they totally deny Pranayama. They put their teaching highly above all that, with exclusive rights to grant access to Divinity.

    3. They barely have any of their own practices except some highly primitive Penance, which requires no effort except focusing at something in your eyes which you can get exclusively from some Guru.

    4. They wrote too much on worshiping their Gurus and need to make donations. If Vallalar could make gold out of the air (as some stories say), couldn't they just live... without donations? Just by making gold here and there from time to time?

    5. There is little to no evidence from them that any of them actually lived for more than 100 years. Their texts don't show a glimpse of knowledge of someone who lived for over 100 years, and there is little transcendental knowledge in it. Everyone can claim to be 100+ years old, but one needs to act like one too, their texts are full of filler and some old morale like "eat only pure-veg food" and "drop any illegal habits" (I wouldn't be surprised if same-sex relationships are also "illegal lust" in their eyes).

    Also they say here http://www.vallalyaar.com/tiruvadi-d...ing-with-fire/ in pt.5 in red letters - don't worship demi-gods, but in here http://www.vallalyaar.com/chapter-8-...or-immortaliy/ they literally say - worship those who have seen Lord, especially Gurus.

    6. Conveyor of granting Deekshai. Imagine conveyor of Shaktipat - it is just not possible.
    ---------------------
    Looks like some creepy sect if you ask me. Sect which feeds on people's fear of death. I am not bashing those peeps, but their teaching sounds quite disturbing, primitive, anti-living and highly manipulative. I will be glad if I will be proven wrong.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    48
    I understand websites designed by different devotees can be off putting, but its the 1st hand experience which Siddhas value

    1. Deekshai seems to be analogous to Shaktipat but seems very... fakey, basically any person (especially impressionable) can feel "something" when someone other looks into his/her eyes. Meanwhile Deathless Gurus claim to have exclusive rights to grant this Deekshai and, as such, they claim monopoly on Divine Wisdom.
    That's your opinion having never received deekshai yourself or talked with someone (in person) who has

    Deekshai is a transmission through the eyes that changes your eyes,
    real (siddhas) Gurus don't claim exclusive rights or have a monopoly on any wisdom
    Sadguru or Guru
    have the experience having done the training/practises themselves, just like any skill (carpentry) you receive training from a experienced professional
    you wouldn't learn music from someone who isn't a qualified musican
    you should note they use the phrase Qualified Sadguru for a reason

    Unfortunately you cant expect to fully understand what Deekshai is without doing/experiencing it yourself, or at least talking to others who have received Deekshai
    many parts of life require direct experience for them to be fully understood

    2. Deathless people seem to greatly disregard any Yoga practices and they totally deny Pranayama. They put their teaching highly above all that, with exclusive rights to grant access to Divinity.
    Completely false, Vallalaars teachings in Tamil deal with different types of Yoga and so do every single Siddha that has ever lived
    Where do they deny Pranayama ? In the practise of Penance the Pranayama becomes automatic, I already addressed this

    Exclusive rights to access divinity is not the case, the teachings are highly revered but some devotees take it too far
    feeling that their path is the only true one
    examples of this type of behaviour can be found in pretty much every spiritual practise

    3. They barely have any of their own practices except some highly primitive Penance, which requires no effort except focusing at something in your eyes which you can get exclusively from some Guru.
    Considering Tamil civilization and culture is the oldest in the world nearly all practices originated from South India and Siddhars
    Highly Primitive ? using techniques to activate cryptochrome (magnetoreception)
    Changing the chemistry in the brain by training their eyes in different conditions
    using low level light environment and mirrors to increase the size of the retinas too pick up higher frequencies of light
    Very primitive indeed...

    4. They wrote too much on worshiping their Gurus and need to make donations. If Vallalar could make gold out of the air (as some stories say), couldn't they just live... without donations? Just by making gold here and there from time to time?
    They do live with without donations, an option open to donate doesn't mean its a commercial enterprise
    In Tamil Nadu there are fires Vallalaar lit that still help feed people today
    In Valdur there's a trust that feeds clothes and homes people for free
    India is steeped in beliefs involving offerings to various deities , but just because some devotees choose to emphasize this
    does not mean its what is directly taught by Vallalaar or other Siddhas

    5. There is little to no evidence from them that any of them actually lived for more than 100 years. Their texts don't show a glimpse of knowledge of someone who lived for over 100 years, and there is little transcendental knowledge in it. Everyone can claim to be 100+ years old, but one needs to act like one too, their texts are full of filler and some old morale like "eat only pure-veg food" and "drop any illegal habits" (I wouldn't be surprised if same-sex relationships are also "illegal lust" in their eyes).
    With an armchair exploration of it , you wont find anything substantial without 1st hand experience,
    Many of the methods and techniques are only taught face to face as I stated before in a previous post
    I even linked a website with actual directions and locations of these Deathless Siddhas
    but no one is going to visit them and do the work for you

    The few books/texts you have read are short introduction for people who don't speak Tamil
    Please read all of Vallalaars works in Tamil (28+books) , have a talk with a qualified Sadguru and then decide it is old morale filler.
    That would be a fair approach to both you and the teachings/beliefs.

    Pure veg food is a requirement and dropping illegal habits (drugs) but that's really common in a lot of spiritual practises
    (I wouldn't be surprised if same-sex relationships are also "illegal lust" in their eyes).
    No same sex is fine
    Also they say here http://www.vallalyaar.com/tiruvadi-d...ing-with-fire/ in pt.5 in red letters - don't worship demi-gods, but in here http://www.vallalyaar.com/chapter-8-...or-immortaliy/ they literally say - worship those who have seen Lord, especially Gurus.
    They don't worship Gurus as demi gods please cite where ? , Vallalaar stated many times to worship God not him
    Those who get Sadguru have a spiritual respect for them

    This quote below from the link about worshipping is incorrect
    Being humble before the guru, worshipping him, giving him necessary offerings learn the teachings of deathlessness and get Thiruvadi Deekshai
    this devotee has put emphasis on offerings and worship to the Guru
    (worship to a Guru is not like worship to God its like paying homage)
    but this is not what is directly taught by a Siddha
    respect and love for your teacher/guru but not worship (like you do to God)

    There are lots in India who use the Guru status to make money and brainwash people
    this is not condoned by real Siddhas or they're teachings

    Looks like some creepy sect if you ask me. Sect which feeds on people's fear of death. I am not bashing those peeps, but their teaching sounds quite disturbing, primitive, anti-living and highly manipulative. I will be glad if I will be proven wrong.
    Creepy sect ?
    feeding on people fears ?
    Vallalar Principles
    Universal brotherhoodness
    Treating all souls are equal.
    Creating awareness to individual's self diciplines
    The God is one for all and worshipping Him as Vast Grace Light or ArutperunJothi
    No killing of animals
    No eating of flesh
    Jeeva Karunaya ; Showing mercy to hungry and feeding them.
    how very creepy

    I am not bashing those peeps, but their teaching sounds quite disturbing, primitive, anti-living and highly manipulative
    please explain what teachings are primitive anti-living and highly manipulative
    can you please show me examples ?

    I will happily give you the details you asked for in a PM
    Last edited by Kibric; 1 Week Ago at 02:38 PM.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Kibric View Post
    Unfortunately you cant expect to fully understand what Deekshai is without doing/experiencing it yourself, or at least talking to others who have received Deekshai
    many parts of life require direct experience for them to be fully understood
    During Shaktipat and similar transmissions, the "receiver" gets the visions of the Glory of This Universe, of The Divine, often it is accompanied by acquiring some Siddhis, etc. If "receiver" isn't totally ready then a lot of troubles start happening in his life - that is why Shaktipat can't be made just toward any human.

    Also unlike Deekshai, one can work through teachings of Yoga and Tantra and totally avoid the need of Shaktipat, attaining all this by his own labor.

    Are there any similar experiences with Deekshai? Can one attain Deekshai without contacting with any Guru?
    Completely false, Vallalaars teachings in Tamil deal with different types of Yoga and so do every single Siddha that has ever lived
    Where do they deny Pranayama ? In the practise of Penance the Pranayama becomes automatic, I already addressed this
    Here they bash it:
    http://www.vallalyaar.com/chapter-8-...or-immortaliy/
    "With a techniques of Yoga like Pranayamam, VaasiYogam it will take lot of births for one to achieve Divinity. Only after extreme Yogas it is possible for one to achieve divine wisdom and after getting divine wisdom only one can get divine pleasure and divine bliss."

    Here they totally deny it:
    http://www.vallalyaar.com/true-meani...undalini-yoga/
    "Yoga Sastram tells that the Kunadlini is in the end of spinal cord. We donot want that. TiruArutPrakasa Vallalar has clearly told that Pranayam or any other breathing practice will not lead one to to the Supreme Lord. Yoga and Pranayam were not recommeded in this age."


    To be honest, this latter quote is totally messy and suspicious.
    Considering Tamil civilization and culture is the oldest in the world nearly all practices originated from South India and Siddhars
    Highly Primitive ? using techniques to activate cryptochrome (magnetoreception)
    Changing the chemistry in the brain by training their eyes in different conditions
    using low level light environment and mirrors to increase the size of the retinas too pick up higher frequencies of light
    Very primitive indeed...
    If to look at various Eastern teachings, a lot of them almost like science, beautiful and multifaceted. Penance, indeed, looks a bit too "simplistic".
    Pure veg food is a requirement and dropping illegal habits (drugs) but that's really common in a lot of spiritual practises
    While I agree that animal food is a bit too "crude" and it also feeds the "lower parts" of human's soul, it is irreplaceable, though I agree that proper balance is needed. Animal food has a lot of irreplaceable particles like animal protein, B12, etc., and after a year or so of ignoring animal food, bad changes start happening in human's body. Also eating animal meat is basically a requirement for everyone whose work is hard physically, and I must say that there are little jobs in the world which are physically easy.
    They don't worship Gurus as demi gods please cite where ? , Vallalaar stated many times to worship God not him
    Here:
    http://www.vallalyaar.com/chapter-8-...or-immortaliy/
    "Worship any people who have seen him(lord). Fall on the feet of those person who were teaching this education."
    ...
    "“Did i shy to worship my Guru”
    “Did i forget to give Kaanikai(offerings) to my Guru”
    These were the words conveyed by vallalar in his book “ManuMurai Kanda Vaasakam”. So be humble and learn this education from the guru. Do divine donation."

    please explain what teachings are primitive anti-living and highly manipulative
    can you please show me examples ?
    Understand me right, in no way I am bashing them or want to bash them, but in my land we have lots of people who claim to attain immortality, who claim to be angels and demons in flesh, etc. Each third is some "illuminated guru". I also became a victim of trust to some of them and it costed me a lot in terms of time.

    Thus I am approaching all those teachers with great caution. And as some people say: "An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof." So far I saw no proof, but I saw all the same notions which I have seen coming from similar-sounding people in my land. Their site has no texts on transcendental experience, on the nature of the things, nothing. It would be interesting to read more on those things, on the nature of Deekshai, etc., before having to give my last hard-earned money as some required divine offering.

    As they write in http://www.vallalyaar.com/chapter5-donation-penance/
    "Without donations no one can get divine wisdom."

    I am not greedy person. But I work extremely hard for whatever little money I have and so I have a very cautious approach to people who claim to be able to make gold from thin air like Vallalar and his embodiments. Perhaps they help and feed the needy, we also have such "philanthropists" in my land - they sell bread for 100$ each and then give part of the money to the "poor", seemingly strong and healthy people who are just too lazy to do any kind of labor.

    I will be glad to find myself in error in this case, I have shown you why I think that those people are just some creepy sect. Just with clean heart tell me, do you yourself believe them? Do you have any actual transcendental experience from Deekshai or just something which can be explained by hypnosis, trance, impressionability or something like that? And I will be glad to read more of their books on the Universe, Nature, etc., what I have read so far has a lot of "water" (I am not sure about the proper English idiom here) and contradicts most of the Eastern teachings.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts