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Thread: Vinegar toil

  1. #1

    Vinegar toil

    One thing I have discovered over the last 9 months is the sheer quantity of wine-vinegar production required. I make a barrel load of wine 25-28 litres and 4 months later it is vinegar. Double freeze then filter I get about 5 litres but it isn't that strong. So the quantity of acetate produced is low. It would take years to make sizeable amounts of acetate unless I did 5-10 barrels of vinegar each time which for the average household is not practical. It seems to me that only the owner of a vineyard can realistically adopt the acetate approach and take it all the way to the stone.

    Using an air bubbler in the barrel can speed up vinegar production however the sheer volume of wine to vinegar to freezing and then the step of sweating or vacuum distilling to get high conc acetic acid. The scale of production is on the level of a small business venture.

    The fact that nobody on this forum has ever pointed out this issue; the sheer scale of required volumes, suggests few of if any here have ever started practically investigating this approach.
    Last edited by Axismundi000; 09-01-2017 at 08:42 AM. Reason: Changed to: few if any

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    One thing I have discovered over the last 9 months is the sheer quantity of wine-vinegar production required. I make a barrel load of wine 25-28 litres and 4 months later it is vinegar. Double freeze then filter I get about 5 litres but it isn't that strong. So the quantity of acetate produced is low. It would take years to make sizeable amounts of acetate unless I did 5-10 barrels of vinegar each time which for the average household is not practical. It seems to me that only the owner of a vineyard can realistically adopt the acetate approach and take it all the way to the stone.

    Using an air bubbler in the barrel can speed up vinegar production however the sheer volume of wine to vinegar to freezing and then the step of sweating or vacuum distilling to get high conc acetic acid. The scale of production is on the level of a small business venture.

    The fact that nobody on this forum has ever pointed out this issue; the sheer scale of required volumes, suggests few of if any here have ever started practically investigating this approach.
    The reason why nobody points it out is because I don't think anyone who has tinkered with acetates feels that such huge quantities of them are needed. You can work with smaller sample sizes (and you still will eventually realize that you can't make the Stone or the secret solvent by working with them alone.) Plus since there is no difference between working with home-made vinegar and vinegars or acetic acid already conveniently prepared and/or concentrated for you by a well-established large-scale industry, no one that I know of is inclined to take the trouble of producing their own vinegar from scratch.

  3. #3
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    Hi Axis

    I'm just wondering what you use all this wine vinegar for ?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    The reason why nobody points it out is because I don't think anyone who has tinkered with acetates feels that such huge quantities of them are needed. You can work with smaller sample sizes (and you still will eventually realize that you can't make the Stone or the secret solvent by working with them alone.) Plus since there is no difference between working with home-made vinegar and vinegars or acetic acid already conveniently prepared and/or concentrated for you by a well-established large-scale industry, no one that I know of is inclined to take the trouble of producing their own vinegar from scratch.
    A telling comment, why on earth would I go to such trouble as brewing my own wine, fermenting my own vinegar and vacuum distilling it below 90c. Or I could even buy metal acetate and not bother with any of the above. I'm focussing on practical issues of vinegar making and the 'spiritual' reasons for doing so which you do not believe in anyway JDP. So I'm not going to go deeply into when a vinegar has philosophical characteristic and when these are lacking. I agree with Dubuis theory of vegetable life, you may choose to now criticise this JDP, understand I do not care what you think about that. I wonder if people on this forum have only tried acetate work with commercial acetates or purchased acetic acid which is why they have never encountered this issue of sheer volume of vinegar required to be made. Also in my opinion without a vinegar that has a philosophical nature to to how it is made, it is small wonder that little Alchemical progress is achieved.

    I appreciate your practical observations JDP my feeling is you do get your hands dirty in the lab. I have to admit I seem to be forming a general prejudice here that in the vernacular a number of posters are 'bullshitters' and do very little meaningful actual practical Alchemical research. For example not understanding the scale required to make sufficient vinegar. If this was realised and people felt it was unnecessary, that you can just buy it why has this not been previously mentioned? Because some people basically don't do much apart from talk about Alchemy books so they haven't investigated and wouldn't know?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by black View Post
    Hi Axis

    I'm just wondering what you use all this wine vinegar for ?
    I use the acetic acid of vinegar to react with a mineral carbonate or oxide to form a metal acetate. I mention briefly in the post to JDP why I think it is necessary to have correctly made vinegar rather than just buying glacial acetic acid or a metal acetate from a commercial supplier.

    The essence of my post initial is that it isn't really practical unless you have a vineyard or own a brewing business and can set aside a section for vinegar making.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    I use the acetic acid of vinegar to react with a mineral carbonate or oxide to form a metal acetate. I mention briefly in the post to JDP why I think it is necessary to have correctly made vinegar rather than just buying glacial acetic acid or a metal acetate from a commercial supplier.

    The essence of my post initial is that it isn't really practical unless you have a vineyard or own a brewing business and can set aside a section for vinegar making.
    I spent many years working with the mineral / metallic acetates.
    Initially I just used glacial acetic acid and with each experiment
    only about 30 to 50 ml each time.

    You can do a lot of work in the lab with several liters.
    All good experience.

    As for the Philosophical Vinegar ....I think Basil Valentine writes
    about it a bit in his Triumphal Chariot of Antimony.

    It's always a good read....there's always something new to find
    each time.

  7. #7
    Did you make your own 'natural' vinegar Black? Shop bought or purchased glacial acetic acid makes an acetate no problem, but it lacks what could be called a philosophical nature. It's good to hear about your practical experiences.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    One thing I have discovered over the last 9 months is the sheer quantity of wine-vinegar production required. I make a barrel load of wine 25-28 litres and 4 months later it is vinegar. Double freeze then filter I get about 5 litres but it isn't that strong. So the quantity of acetate produced is low. It would take years to make sizeable amounts of acetate unless I did 5-10 barrels of vinegar each time which for the average household is not practical. It seems to me that only the owner of a vineyard can realistically adopt the acetate approach and take it all the way to the stone.

    Using an air bubbler in the barrel can speed up vinegar production however the sheer volume of wine to vinegar to freezing and then the step of sweating or vacuum distilling to get high conc acetic acid. The scale of production is on the level of a small business venture.

    The fact that nobody on this forum has ever pointed out this issue; the sheer scale of required volumes, suggests few of if any here have ever started practically investigating this approach.
    You are trying to make the vinegar of the sages, the secret solvent ?

    So what is your process?

    If I were trying to make wine vinegar I would start with wine then dilute it so the alcohol concentration wouldn't be too strong to kill the bacteria. Then I would add a culture of the bacteria and consider using a heating belt set at whatever temp is optimal for these bacteria, oh and I would probably use an air stone too...good idea!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Did you make your own 'natural' vinegar Black? Shop bought or purchased glacial acetic acid makes an acetate no problem, but it lacks what could be called a philosophical nature. It's good to hear about your practical experiences.
    The glacial acetic acid I used was purchased from a chemical supply store.

    I think you may be onto something when you say a Philosophic Nature.

    If you have read The Triumphal Chariot....you may recall Dr Kirkringus commenting
    on Basils Spirit of Wine and then offering his own special ....(KM) menstrum.

    If this is the case with the Spirit of Wine it may also ring true for the Vinegar ?

  10. #10
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    I've tinkered with strengthening vinegar, via a fractioned freezing process, but freezing alone will only get you to 50-60% most likely, so to make half a gallon of that requires 10 gallons or more. One "use" of it while making might be to add thermal mass to your deep freezer.

    I only used store-bought white vinegar, and after screwing around with it for a while, I dropped a couple pennies in there and left it on my desk. Some copper acetate is just another member of my little curio collection now, and it looks cool in a lab. You're right in saying that it's quite a process, and paired with the curing time of wine it is a ton of trouble. Do you grow your own grapes too?

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