Click HERE if you want to join Alchemy Forums!

Patrons of the Sacred Art

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 26

Thread: Rotation of the elements

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    162
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiorionis View Post
    I wonder about this playfulness. I for one ascribe to the "let there be light" theory

    Aries -- 1st sign -- Fire
    Taurus -- 2nd sign -- Earth
    Gemini -- 3rd sign -- Air
    Cancer -- 4th sign -- Water

    This elemental order is then "rotated" through the other 8 zodiac signs. I wonder why?

    Haha maybe that's why the world is so "damaged".
    I dont understand how you have tied the four elements to those signs to be honest, it is not how I understand it but maybe you are following a different system.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    162
    Quote Originally Posted by Luxus View Post
    I was reading through the Donum Dei text yesterday and noticed the order of the elements was

    "The first is winter cold and moist, the second is ver, hot and moist, and flourishing. The third is the summer time, hot and dry, and red. The fourth is the harvest cold and dry, which is the time of gathering of fruit."

    Notice the rotation of elements is given as Water > Air > Fire > Earth

    Mostly the elements are given from their grossest to their Subtlest:

    Earth > Water > Air > Fire

    First I thought it was a mistake but then thinking further on this thought that it may be possible to rotate through the phases in a different order and still have success.
    This is derived from Aristotle's cross of the four elements.


    The attribution of elements to seasons given in the Donum Dei is the scheme generally accepted in classical astrology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luxus View Post
    I dont understand how you have tied the four elements to those signs to be honest, it is not how I understand it but maybe you are following a different system.
    What Kirionis gave is simply the attribution of the elements to the first four signs - a pattern that repeats itself throughout the zodiac.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    162
    Ok I get what Kirionis is doing now, and I think I have discovered why the variation. The two charts below contradict each other, the first one is the one I understood to be correct.





    And another contradicting chart


  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Bridger Mountains
    Posts
    1,571
    Blog Entries
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by Luxus View Post
    I dont understand how you have tied the four elements to those signs to be honest, it is not how I understand it but maybe you are following a different system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
    What Kiorionis gave is simply the attribution of the elements to the first four signs - a pattern that repeats itself throughout the zodiac.
    Mr. Sternbach is correct

    Lately, I've been especially interested in why the natural world is placed in this particular order of the elements.

    So far I'm thinking the rotation is because: Fire is most easily turned into Earth, Earth is most easily turned into Air, Air is most easily turned into Water, and Water is the only thing which is able to alchemically unite with Fire (on account of it having been created out of the Fire the rotation begins with).
    Art is Nature in the flask; Nature is a vial thing.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    162
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiorionis View Post
    Mr. Sternbach is correct

    Lately, I've been especially interested in why the natural world is placed in this particular order of the elements.

    So far I'm thinking the rotation is because: Fire is most easily turned into Earth, Earth is most easily turned into Air, Air is most easily turned into Water, and Water is the only thing which is able to alchemically unite with Fire (on account of it having been created out of the Fire the rotation begins with).
    It is an interesting question.

    For one thing, this arrangement leads to signs of the same gender facing each other in the zodiac (Fire and Air, Water and Earth). Therefore, in regard of their zodiacal colouring, planets standing in opposition to each other were not looked at as totally dissimilar forces by the ancients.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,108
    Blog Entries
    13
    we are talking about hermetic prinicipals you must remember. They are not 'real'.

    They are symbology that assists the mind to make sense of things that otherwise we cannot understand.

    Their are many different ways to look at the elements, their order, the way they respond to one another. And it is easy to 'justify' why one element might be positioned in a certain place and behave in a certain way, and just as easy to look at them in a different way and justify that.

    We had the Chinese using 5 elements for thousands of years and then we just cut one out without any explanation or experimentation.

    What I've noticed, is that elemental theory, just like the current chemistry 'Molecular Orbital' theory, leave a lot to be desired. There are some substances that we find while performing experiments in the lab that just do not fit into any of these categories, such as Sal Ammonical Salts, so often described as a 'Sulphur' due to its fiery properties, and yet, in the same experiment, ill extract a red oil or solute (depending how you work) which we call 'Tinture' or !Sulphur!? And again, if i dry distill a wet plant ( ) ill get two clear liquid fractions. First one being the "air" fraction, second being "water"

    Now, technically, an Air and Water fraction of a thing can be described as Mercury, and yet, some would say that the Air faction has SM within it which makes it the mercury, however, we again use the "water" fraction to coax the Red Sulphur from the plant, making it what? Merc!!!!??

    This system was DESIGNED to be very tricky and easily confuses anyone who isn't very serious about this art.

    I can't wait to evolve to a place that doesn't use words. Words are just so, inaccurate and limiting. Nature isn't limited and it shouldn't be put into boxes, alas, as the low vibration creatures we are I suppose we have no choice at this stage in our development.

    I have two orders of elements. Cosmic (creation): Fire, Air, Water, Earth; and Microcosmic (transformation): Air, Water, Fire, Earth.
    Join me; on a voyage of stupidity, and self discovery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=vccZSHroTG4

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    229
    Quote Originally Posted by Luxus View Post
    I was reading through the Donum Dei text yesterday and noticed the order of the elements was

    "The first is winter cold and moist, the second is ver, hot and moist, and flourishing. The third is the summer time, hot and dry, and red. The fourth is the harvest cold and dry, which is the time of gathering of fruit."

    Notice the rotation of elements is given as Water > Air > Fire > Earth

    Mostly the elements are given from their grossest to their Subtlest:

    Earth > Water > Air > Fire

    First I thought it was a mistake but then thinking further on this thought that it may be possible to rotate through the phases in a different order and still have success.


    Hi, Luxus... I see this from the opposite side.

    (Why not ) --- Fire > Air > Water > Earth ... ?

    Even so, we can have success ! (or maybe not... )

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    162
    Quote Originally Posted by elixirmixer View Post
    we are talking about hermetic prinicipals you must remember. They are not 'real'.

    They are symbology that assists the mind to make sense of things that otherwise we cannot understand.

    Their are many different ways to look at the elements, their order, the way they respond to one another. And it is easy to 'justify' why one element might be positioned in a certain place and behave in a certain way, and just as easy to look at them in a different way and justify that.

    We had the Chinese using 5 elements for thousands of years and then we just cut one out without any explanation or experimentation.

    What I've noticed, is that elemental theory, just like the current chemistry 'Molecular Orbital' theory, leave a lot to be desired. There are some substances that we find while performing experiments in the lab that just do not fit into any of these categories, such as Sal Ammonical Salts, so often described as a 'Sulphur' due to its fiery properties, and yet, in the same experiment, ill extract a red oil or solute (depending how you work) which we call 'Tinture' or !Sulphur!? And again, if i dry distill a wet plant ( ) ill get two clear liquid fractions. First one being the "air" fraction, second being "water"

    Now, technically, an Air and Water fraction of a thing can be described as Mercury, and yet, some would say that the Air faction has SM within it which makes it the mercury, however, we again use the "water" fraction to coax the Red Sulphur from the plant, making it what? Merc!!!!??

    This system was DESIGNED to be very tricky and easily confuses anyone who isn't very serious about this art.

    I can't wait to evolve to a place that doesn't use words. Words are just so, inaccurate and limiting. Nature isn't limited and it shouldn't be put into boxes, alas, as the low vibration creatures we are I suppose we have no choice at this stage in our development.

    I have two orders of elements. Cosmic (creation): Fire, Air, Water, Earth; and Microcosmic (transformation): Air, Water, Fire, Earth.
    While it is true that our mind of necessity creates models that more or less aptly attempt to categorize and explain the reality that is "out there" (at least until something more satisfying is found), I don't see many of these models (especially in Hermetic and Daoist science) as kind of arbitrary, the way your post seems to suggest.

    Many such systems are quite refined, on the basis of both long experience and "mathematical" (especially geometrical) consideration, and more about their universal validity and mutual interconnection will be revealed in due time. Also, seeming contradictions can and will be resolved eventually.

    This is true for astrological, kabbalistic, alchemical, Daoist and other metaphysical systems, and maybe even for atomic shell models.

    The occult sciences are in a process of progress much like the natural sciences, from my perspective.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    162
    Quote Originally Posted by pierre View Post
    Hi, Luxus... I see this from the opposite side.

    (Why not ) --- Fire > Air > Water > Earth ... ?

    Even so, we can have success ! (or maybe not... )
    The degree of heat usually increases rather then decreases in alchemical operations. This would suggest solid, liquid, gas, fire phase (earth,water,air,fire). With each stage the energy of the matter is being slowly argumented in the fire.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Bridger Mountains
    Posts
    1,571
    Blog Entries
    4
    I agree about the increase in heat, Luxus. But if the end goal is a coagulate susbtance, it will finish the rotation as an earth.

    Unless you separate it into 2 processes:
    Solve -- volatilizing the fixt
    coagula -- fixing the volatile
    Art is Nature in the flask; Nature is a vial thing.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts