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Thread: Phosphorus IS the stone

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcherSage View Post
    The secret solvent IS the urine, urine is a great tool for breaking down materials if its content is acidic enough. They also mention purifying this solvent because it was originally tainted or contaminated, they were purifying urine. The alchemist who discovered phosphorus was likely not the first alchemist to find it. Odds are, some alchemists many hundreds of years before had found this glowing stone and had kept it secret through various metaphorical texts, until later the alchemist who "discovered" it revealed it to the world, rendering alchemy obsolete. And you claim that I am wrong based on what ? What alchemy texts are objective and clear ? If the process was clear in ANY text, it would have been done thousands of times by modern alchemist. The fact is, phosphorus was a huge deal when they were messing around with it. It matches the white and red stage, the black stage happens simply by boiling the urine, which creates a sort of syrup. It matches description of the material vanishing into thin air. And the original substance where the work begins was said to be vile, and disgusting to the public. They did not want people knowing they were experimenting with urine and feces (which some texts are flat out admitting both of these to be the case, even storing material within stool samples as a heating method) . This is likely the true story of the stone, they wanted to keep this mysterious substance that was extracted from urine a secret. Its funny how so many modern alchemist argue and debate as if any of them know a single truth, in reality they all debate regarding subjective texts that do not make anything clear and precise. Its like a Muslim and a Christian arguing over who's text is more holy or divine. So many alchemist blindly believe the methods have been revealed through allegory, and some say its plain as day written in clear steps..yet nobody can achieve this. Phosphorus being the stone makes so much more sense, as the material was not really known until not too long ago, meaning for hundreds of years before they were secret experimenting with it. The other thing is the salt separates from the blackness, which is another stage mentioned in several texts (separating the black and white then re uniting them again later). The urine process will naturally produce the separation of the black and the white. Please explain the wonderful process of making the stone, and tell me what the stone is made of, and tell me if the stone is ingested or is used to produce gold, or all of the above.

    They also discuss this substance rising from the ground to the heavens, and needs to be captured because of its elusive nature. It has to be captured from urine, or from soil deposits, as it is not easy to find places to mine phosphorus (at least back then)





    Here is your stone



    Maybe they thought this was the gold ? Some texts state the stone being a powder at one stage (and even the final stage), which of course phosphorus can be that as well
    Urine is a complex mixture of substances, it has been known since remote times (obviously), unlike phosphorus, which is not easy to obtain from it (that can be easily seen by the fact that the first clear mention of it we have comes from the FAILED experiments of a 17th century chymist, not an alchemist, properly, who was trying to figure out the secrets of alchemy.) For hundreds of years before that, countless people also experimented with urine and obtained different byproducts from it, but failed to notice any production of phosphorus. And I am not talking only about the secretive type of experimenters, but also all those chymists who wrote very plainly. On top of that, soon after phosphorus became known we keep seeing that no one could prepare the Stone with it. So it proved to be just another dead-end.

    I already explained why this idea of yours does not hold any water whatsoever. You are trying to appeal to the obscurity of many alchemical texts, but that mostly relates to the use of "decknamen" and other literary devices intended to make it less clear for "unworthy" seekers how the Stone was prepared, it does not mean that all alchemical literature is 100% unintelligible. We have plenty of descriptions of the processes and reactions that lead to the Stone, but always concealing the real proper names of the substances involved, and from them we can easily infer that they DO NOT match with the operations for obtaining phosphorus from urine, or with the characteristics of phosphorus itself. Your theory fails. Phosphorus is not the Philosophers' Stone even by a landslide.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Your theory fails. Phosphorus is not the Philosophers' Stone even by a landslide.
    What is the Stone then? Since you know what it is not, you must have some idea of what it is.

    Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awani View Post
    What is the Stone then? Since you know what it is not, you must have some idea of what it is.

    Whatever it is, it is obviously not phosphorus, a substance that does not share its peculiar properties.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awani View Post
    What is the Stone then? Since you know what it is not, you must have some idea of what it is.

    The stone is the Word of God.

    Clearly phosphorous can't be the stone since Phosphorous must be God under such a situation. And Dev, you know what the stone is since you were a witness to all the great conversations that happened here.

  5. #15
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    Longevity Elixirs can be made from urine, but they are not the stone
    there are Taoist and Hindu stories about people refusing to drink it
    because its pee
    they only really work depending on the diet of the persons urine
    an extremely healthy person with a special diet (involving various plants and vegetables)
    could make a longevity Elixir from their urine

    as far as the Rosicrucian's go
    the real ones
    ?????
    they're planning for a golden age ?

  6. #16
    Another reason the stone is phosphorus is because many texts state that there are two states in the process, one is VOLATILE (not stable), and the other is NOT. This is true with WHITE phosphorus which ignites when oxygen is present, red phosphorus however does NOT ignite at temperatures below like 400 degrees F. The texts state that they combined the volatile and non volatile into a fixed substance. Red phosphorus is a FIRE RETARDANT, the texts all state the final stone stage is red, and is immune to fire....it is all becoming clear, they were obsessed with phosphorus and were messing around with it, this is the most likely explanation. All of the traits of phosphorus DO match the stories of the stone, with the exception of the gold making which is likely purely false and misleading.

  7. #17
    This text may have well been about phosphorus as well (maybe not about the stone, but possibly phosphorus related).
    http://www.alchemywebsite.com/everbrn.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorescence
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemiluminescence (what the text was likely about)

    I think it is obvious that phosphorus regardless of if it was the stone or not, was a HUGE deal to the alchemists and was a closely held secret among them. Imagine walking into an alchemist lab back in the day before electricity, and seeing glowing stones/rocks/lamps that are not made of fire that maintain their brightness forever

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcherSage View Post
    Another reason the stone is phosphorus is
    What do you mean "another"? You haven't brought up even one that can withstand even superficial scrutiny.

    because many texts state that there are two states in the process, one is VOLATILE (not stable), and the other is NOT. This is true with WHITE phosphorus which ignites when oxygen is present, red phosphorus however does NOT ignite at temperatures below like 400 degrees F.
    Which YET AGAIN shows it cannot be the Stone, as that substance can withstand the fusion temperature even of metals like copper (1085 °C.) Not allotropic form of phosphorus can resist such temperatures. Your theory just keeps on failing, my friend.

    The texts state that they combined the volatile and non volatile into a fixed substance. Red phosphorus is a FIRE RETARDANT, the texts all state the final stone stage is red, and is immune to fire...
    The red allotropic form of phosphorus was unknown even to phosphorus' very own accidental discoverer, a "puffer" or "vulgar chymist" called Hennig Brand, who discovered white phosphorus precisely as a result of his experimental failures to figure out the secrets of alchemy. Red phosphorus was discovered in 1845 by an ordinary chemist called Anton Schrötter (who unlike the old alchemists had the appropriate means and knowledge of the composition of atmospheric air to be able to make such a discovery.) Your naive theory keeps on failing.

    Oh, and red phosphorus is such a great "fire retardant" that its very first uses were in fact in MAKING BETTER AND SAFER MATCHES. You keep on failing, my friend.

    it is all becoming clear,
    that your theory can't withstand even basic historical and empirical scrutiny.

    they were obsessed with phosphorus and were messing around with it,
    How could they have been "obsessed" about something they did not even know it existed???

    this is the most likely explanation.
    In your mind, maybe, but not to anyone better acquainted with the subject.

    All of the traits of phosphorus DO match the stories of the stone,
    Nope, they don't. Phosphorus = easily flammable and volatile; Philosophers' Stone = the total opposite. And that is just one of the many obvious contrasts between the Stone and that TOTALLY ORDINARY CHEMICAL substance.

    with the exception of the gold making which is likely purely false and misleading.
    In other words, with the exception of its most obvious and talked about characteristic, the one that is the most intrinsic to the very definition of the Philosophers' Stone, which since it is not found in any COMMON SUBSTANCE KNOWN TO ORDINARY CHEMISTRY,LIKE PHOSPHORUS, you very conveniently and casually throw out the window in a desperate effort to give your obviously erroneous theory some sort of chance of holding water. ***Tsk-Tsk*** MAJOR FAIL!

  9. #19
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    the one that is the most intrinsic to the very definition of the Philosophers' Stone, which since it is not found in any COMMON SUBSTANCE KNOWN TO ORDINARY CHEMISTRY
    but it is known by everyone , trodden , despised , praised etc
    people have written

    there's a quote i will try to track down but paraphrasing badly from memory
    " men rarely see her in her second coat, which is transparent and clear "
    i think it explains a bit about men see her and do not recognise her
    if it jogs anyone memory let us know

    ***Tsk-Tsk*** MAJOR FAIL!
    along with Captain Obvious and General Safety they protect the world

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kibric View Post
    but it is known by everyone , trodden , despised , praised etc
    people have written
    That can hardly refer to phosphorus, since that substance wasn't known to the ancients. Plus the above conundrum refers to one of the substances that enters the operations for making the Stone, which "as is" also does not transmute many times its own weight of base metals into silver and gold. A substance that can accomplish such a feat does not exist anywhere in nature. It is the product of human artifice. So the Stone itself doesn't really exist anywhere until it is purposefully prepared by man. You might say it only exists "potentially" (in the substances used to compose it) in nature. But you can say the same about just any other artificial product. For example, TNT exists "potentially" in nature, since the raw materials to make it can be found in many places, but it does not actually exist until the intelligent hand of man intervenes and causes the right conditions and reactions to happen. Nature itself, on its own, cannot make such a thing, despite producing all the raw matters necessary.

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