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Thread: Humic and other soil acids

  1. #1
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    Humic and other soil acids

    So. Been doing some reading. This looked like a lead so I checked it out...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humic_acid

    I'm thinking about this in relation to my own observations of nature and the following ideas:

    Its father is the sun, its mother is the moon,
    the wind carries it in her belly,
    the earth nourishes it.
    ~one of many translations of the Emerald Tablet
    Water is the usual suspect, but what kind of water is "nourished," and how is it "nourished." This always bothered me, so I thought about seeds and single-celled organisms, dust, etc.
    Very recently, I've considered "filtering" rainwater through the earth, in a very literal sense, or cohabating the two.

    Aparently, this stuff has the ability to bond with metals, and in cases can result in superfluids with nanoparticles of iron oxide that will respond to a magnet. Of course, some testing will be required.

    The correlation to natural coals is also interesting, as more and more I'm suspecting earthy minerals like coal to by the dark, disregarded prima - the root of all metals. I'm probably wrong, but I'm spelling it out because I'm not secretive about my suspicions. I believe carbon is important to the starting matter.

    And there is mention about it's use in the formation of clay bricks (the stone the builders cast away) Interesting?

    I don't really know. But this seemed like it would be of interest, so I'm plopping it out there. And since I was already planning an experiment that would yield this stuff, all the better. I might add a few plant salts to the water to help with the solvent properties. I also think nitrates from the water will come in handy.

    Could this be "our water?" Or at least a good way to begin a quest toward finding the solvent. Alchemists did tell a lot of stories about working underground. Maybe they collected the water that pooled up in those places.

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    ... and it just stormed today, and I know a good spot to collect well drained hummus. Yep, going to get me a jar of black dirt, seal it up, and let it begin the fermentation process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon's Tail View Post
    Aparently, this stuff has the ability to bond with metals.
    Interesting stuff. We know that other substances too can form complexes with metals (eg. citric acid, tartaric acid, ammonia, EDTA, ...). What do you think is the difference between humic acid and those substances in the way they bond to metals (if any)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon's Tail View Post
    in cases can result in superfluids with nanoparticles of iron oxide that will respond to a magnet.
    Do you have any reference for this? Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theFool View Post
    Interesting stuff. We know that other substances too can form complexes with metals (eg. citric acid, tartaric acid, ammonia, EDTA, ...). What do you think is the difference between humic acid and those substances in the way they bond to metals (if any)?
    I think the biggest difference is that it isn't really a chemical bond in most cases, acting more like a soap. These are incredibly complex molecules, and science seemingly hasn't come to a conclusion if the individual fractions are individual substances, or various complexes. I imagine parts of the chains involved have the ability to separate the metal atoms, and then release them into the solution by surrounding them via saponification, forming a colloid. This is just my speculation on the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by theFool View Post
    Do you have any reference for this? Thanks.
    I thought there was a note about that in the linked article, let me check...nope. Can't find it. There was one article I was reading about certain varieties of the humic substances replacing oleic acid for soaping up nanoscopic iron compounds. Here's an article about using them to make metallic ions more bio-available:
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...48969716322914

    I didn't read all of it yet, but the synopsis describes the basic mechanism. When I was playing with nanofluid, it is produced by this same kind of method, where the acids surround and carry small molecules of iron so they can be dissolved together in kerosene. There was one article on humic or fulvic acids doing this same kind of thing to form iron core complexes that would "drink up" heavy metal impurities in water, and then extracted with a magnet. Pretty impressive stuff.

    I tend to think that "humic acid" isn't a single molecule, but rather a collection of interacting molecules that work together, giving rise to it's complex interactions. Some scientists think that these acids can be separated fractionally, but they still group them in the easier methods of separation by adjusting the pH of solution to precipitate some while keeping others in solution.

    I'm not sure what the results will be, but this kind of thing has been bouncing in my head for a while, even the possibility of "digesting" plant matter in a purified form of soil, and then extracting the tincture from the soil after digestion. These are all just suspicions at this point, but for the moment, this makes sense of the old hermetic tablet to me. I'm not sure where it will go, but extracting a rich water directly from soil could prove to be useful, or not. I'll update as I make progress. At the moment, I'm trying to figure out what to do with the mites and nematodes. When I shake the mix, I can see them crawling around in there. I decided to vent the jar at least once daily a keep them alive so they can finish working on the dirt. I'll balance the moisture and air as best I can, and see if any changes in the soil occur. Tons of speculation at this point as to how I'll proceed exactly.

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    Thanks for the reply. I wonder if humic acid has a different way of disintegrating metals compared to substances that form complexes.

    There was one article I was reading about certain varieties of the humic substances replacing oleic acid for soaping up nanoscopic iron compounds
    In that case, the "nanoscopic iron compounds" were already formed before the addition of the humic acid, right? It would be surprising if you could add humic acid to iron metal and get a magnetic fluid. Usually complexes destroy the magnetic properties of the metal. That is why I asked about the reference.

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    Depending on what my results are with the earth, I'll keep you posted. I'm being really careful not to "drown" it. I swapped to adding distilled water (from the store, not my own distillation). I have more experiments than hot plates at the moment, but one of them is another iteration of my plant tinctures, and it's very patient. Once I finish with this distilled salts, I'll try to produce some of these concentrated acids, and I plan on testing them. I was thinking about doing it on silver. Just punch the gas and see what happens.

    Edit:

    In the other article I linked, it looked like they were bonding the soil acids directly to iron instead of ferrite. At least according to their suspicions (I'm convinced that no chemist has yet worked out the structure for these acids). If that's the case, then the metal the acids are "floating" is keeping it's metallic properties, which doesn't seem possible since iron typically organizes it's magnetic moments in clusters or grains. IMO there should be at least 2 Fe atoms to form any kind of strong dipole action, but it's just a guess. The atom itself might have a magnetic moment.
    Last edited by Dragon's Tail; 2 Weeks Ago at 05:33 AM.

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