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Thread: 'One Matter' - Empiricism & Alchemy - Discerning Truth from Deception

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by black View Post
    Hi JDP

    I think you may have missed this post so I have entered it again.

    Have you heard of the Double Slit Experiment.

    If you have ......

    I would be very interested to hear what your views and Randi's views
    are on the Double Slit Experiment ?

    It has me totally baffled ........ and many scientists as well.

    My point here being the OBSERVER EFFECT.
    This experiment is well known and accepted and a good example for the difference between a fact and an interpretation. For further studies regarding the observer effect I recommend the book "Physics and Philosophy" by Werner Heisenberg and/or something about the Kopenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics.

  2. #102
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    I've been reading the 1-1-1 discussion and think I want to say my thoughts on it as it may help our brothers/sisters out there who stuggle with the matter/compound/substance/one matter debacle, though if I am not correct in my thinking I am definitely open to being corrected. I'm not saying this is right but just consider the equal and opposite side to this coin [Full disclosure: A 'composite substance' by a scientific view is how I view the one matter though but this is alchemy not science]. Firstly I ask that one take a minute to put aside disbelief, take ones skeptic eyes off and just listen, be open. I have got some background in science and, while it is more physics than chemistry which I have most understanding, I feel I truly understand the logic presented. There is nothing wrong with the logic, it is sound, correct, by definitions of some in the main thread sea water or other alike matters are composite. What if that wasn't what the alchemists were trying to get at?

    Can one get pure water to do what the alchemists claim? Can the qualities of such water change in the ways described in adept literature. If the answer is no then maybe it is time to consider that what was implied is something else. Now-a-days parts thinking is so wide spread and while one can separate the flora, fauna, water, minerals from an eco system if one did one isn't left with an eco-system any longer. There was an ecosystem which when divided can no longer be reassembled into the ecosystem it was without a huge process of adjustment and no doubt hundreds/thousands of years and even then due to different initial conditions would probably look very different. Indigenous thinking is more from of a wholes/process perspective and considering the ancient origins of alchemy is it not even worthy of considering that hermetic philosophy may resemble thinking from an earlier time? Primitive or not in order to understand them consider the historical perspective.

    A human being could be broken down into bones, sinews, muscle, organ etc. What if sea-water is considered by alchemists to be more like a being? A whole which while can be divided and so in that sense isn't 'one matter' but in another sense if we take all the 'parts' of a human and lay them side by side we don't have a human anymore, the whole has been broken and cannot be put back together, something is missing. If left to develop from the one matter of the embryo (which indeed is a compound of many 'elements') evolves into the magnificent human beings we all are, what are the conditions that allow this being to express it self more fully?

    I respect ones knowledge when it comes to science but consider that science isn't alchemy. Can alchemy be quantified scientifically? Maybe, I'm not the right person to ask. I do think that this is generally a semantic debate though and one that would be best just appreciated for what it is and further discussion continued on without the need for this to fill up pages and pages of discourse. Though in all honesty I am thankful because the discussion has given rise to some interesting sharings. If we cannot entertain various different world views we will forever be trapped in the jail of our minds.


    Respectfully,

    Philosophical

  3. #103
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    Mod Note: Continued from HERE
    _________________

    I think that while we deal with chemical compounds we miss something important in the big picture.


    ----------------------------------------
    Last edited by Andro; 01-03-2018 at 03:46 PM. Reason: Thread topic management.

  4. #104
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    I think that while we deal with chemical compounds we miss something important in the big picture.
    What do you mean with chemical compounds? Are chemical Elements or mixtures of Elements allowed?
    Do you suggest in not dealing with matter at all? What is left then? Energy? A vacuum? Manifestations of someones mind? Or the in other threads mentioned gateways between this and other worlds? Maybe, but I would guess you have to start with some material first.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    What do you mean with chemical compounds? Are chemical Elements or mixtures of Elements allowed?
    Do you suggest in not dealing with matter at all? What is left then? Energy? A vacuum? Manifestations of someones mind?
    The turkish freemasons practice exactly this type of alchemy.
    https://cld.pt/dl/download/06d8ba1a-...freemasons.pdf
    Formerly known as True Puffer

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    On the man it is written: "Qui in Merdam seminat, Merdam et metet" - "He who sows shit, also reaps shit."
    Shit is only disgusting because man thinks it is From the universal point of view, shit is a good thing, which serves as natural fertilizer.

    What concerns "chemical" and "non-chemical", I think that popular science is a very wrong thing, combination of many mutually exclusive theories and useless gibberish. When one comes to practical part, he realizes, that it is totally different from the public science.

    The main point of difference lies in "life". There is no place for life in chemical formulas and chemical theories, life is far beyond totally unknown for modern science.

    I think, that if someone wants to get Elixir, which might give him immortality, first should learn what is actual life in order to make it eternal. What differs one life form from another, etc. - all that should be a subject of research for true seeker of Knowledge.

    Modern science deals with corpses and so it is useless to try its theories and experiments in Alchemical operations.

    And yes, Alchemy deals with tangible substances, no pseudo-spiritual New Age fluff. However, I think that in order to understand Alchemy, one needs to think against the crowd. Almost 100% of people are wrong on the subject of Alchemy so they never get success. It means that in order to get success you should choose entirely different, highly abnormal (in eyes of mankind) way of thinking.

    That's how I see it. I also suppose that this way of thinking is HIGHLY dangerous, as it opens many secrets of matter and Cosmos and might even open the gates to totally different worlds. Thus it is kept as the most guarded secret in this totally spoiled human society, which would use this secret to try and drain the life out of Cosmos itself (just as it is draining life from the Earth and already turning its greedy eyes toward draining resources from nearby Planets).

    I have problems seeing how all of that can be achieved by vulgar chemical operations.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warmheart View Post
    What concerns "chemical" and "non-chemical", I think that popular science is a very wrong thing, combination of many mutually exclusive theories and useless gibberish. When one comes to practical part, he realizes, that it is totally different from the public science.

    The main point of difference lies in "life". There is no place for life in chemical formulas and chemical theories, life is far beyond totally unknown for modern science.

    I think, that if someone wants to get Elixir, which might give him immortality, first should learn what is actual life in order to make it eternal. What differs one life form from another, etc. - all that should be a subject of research for true seeker of Knowledge.

    Modern science deals with corpses and so it is useless to try its theories and experiments in Alchemical operations.

    And yes, Alchemy deals with tangible substances, no pseudo-spiritual New Age fluff. However, I think that in order to understand Alchemy, one needs to think against the crowd. Almost 100% of people are wrong on the subject of Alchemy so they never get success. It means that in order to get success you should choose entirely different, highly abnormal (in eyes of mankind) way of thinking.

    That's how I see it. I also suppose that this way of thinking is HIGHLY dangerous, as it opens many secrets of matter and Cosmos and might even open the gates to totally different worlds. Thus it is kept as the most guarded secret in this totally spoiled human society, which would use this secret to try and drain the life out of Cosmos itself (just as it is draining life from the Earth and already turning its greedy eyes toward draining resources from nearby Planets).

    I have problems seeing how all of that can be achieved by vulgar chemical operations.
    Indeed. That pretty much summarizes it

    Mod PS: I'm moving those last posts to a thread that's better suited for such exchanges.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warmheart View Post
    Shit is only disgusting because man thinks it is From the universal point of view, shit is a good thing, which serves as natural fertilizer.

    What concerns "chemical" and "non-chemical", I think that popular science is a very wrong thing.
    Nevertheless what alchemy really is and what it's not, shit is not only a good thing. It has, as most things two sides of a coin. The thinking of shit being a bad thing can be healthy too, as you might know it not only fertilizes the ground, but gives good conditions to bacteria and some might lead to serious illness.
    Same with modern science. Of course some knowledge is used in a bad way. But may I ask if you enjoy for example using your electronic device and the internet, or do you have only negative feelings using them?

    Coming back to shit: There seems to be a long tradition of seekers praising it in general as important to the great work. Other though warn not to use it.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warmheart View Post
    The main point of difference lies in "life". There is no place for life in chemical formulas and chemical theories, life is far beyond totally unknown for modern science.
    Yet, we can see how many people still hope to solve the alchemical enigma with "mainstream" scientific thinking. It's a shame, really... Such brilliant & erudite people - imprisoned in such limiting mental paradigms...

    Quote Originally Posted by Warmheart View Post
    Modern science deals with corpses and so it is useless to try its theories and experiments in Alchemical operations.
    See THIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Warmheart View Post
    And yes, Alchemy deals with tangible substances, no pseudo-spiritual New Age fluff. However, I think that in order to understand Alchemy, one needs to think against the crowd. Almost 100% of people are wrong on the subject of Alchemy so they never get success. It means that in order to get success you should choose entirely different, highly abnormal (in eyes of mankind) way of thinking.
    Those very tangible substances, products of truly Alchemical operations, seem to serve as a COVER - of sorts - for this "X-Factor" (life, or any other fitting name we may give to it). In doing so, their properties are significantly altered. Relevant quote below:

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    He has done a deep scientific analysis of the "Spirit" and he obtained interesting results (i.e, its atomic structures... in plural, because he has found more than one depending on what has been done to obtain it... the weird thing is that these structures do not make any kind of sense from the point of view of chemistry, but I can't say why... though the reason is not exactly its atomic formula, but it is similar to analyzing the PH of a pure sample of Potassium Hydroxide and finding out that the PH is 2... when it should be close to 11, but that's a metaphor).
    _______________________________

    Quote Originally Posted by Warmheart View Post
    Thus it is kept as the most guarded secret in this totally spoiled human society, which would use this secret to try and drain the life out of Cosmos itself.
    Some magicians resort to stealing this life force from other beings who possess it in limited "quantity". The number of those who can harvest it directly from its limitless source/fountain is apparently very small

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by True Initiate View Post
    The turkish freemasons practice exactly this type of alchemy.
    https://cld.pt/dl/download/06d8ba1a-...freemasons.pdf
    "This type of alchemy"??? LOL! There is no such thing as "several types of alchemy". That would be as invalid as saying "this kind of physics", or "this kind of chemistry", or "this kind of mechanics", or "this kind of astronomy", or "this kind of geology", etc. Alchemy = making the Philosophers' Stone. There are no other "alchemys". Everything else that wants to appropriate the word "alchemy" to itself is just a charade, a farce, not the real thing.

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