Patrons of the Sacred Art

OPEN TO REGISTER: Click HERE if you want to join Alchemy Forums!

+ Reply to Thread
Page 32 of 48 FirstFirst ... 22 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 42 ... LastLast
Results 311 to 320 of 471

Thread: 'One Matter' - Empiricism & Alchemy - Discerning Truth from Deception

  1. #311
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,969
    Quote Originally Posted by Kibric View Post
    The quotes i used in no means are trying to deceive the reader.
    I have no reason to doubt the legitimacy of they're investigation



    They were all on march for a crystalline matter
    Though it is indeed possible to find "chymical" transmutation processes (both published as well as unpublished) described with surprising clarity and literal accuracy, when it comes to alchemy and the Stone ALWAYS SUSPECT FOUL PLAY IN SOME PLACE OR ANOTHER, NO MATTER HOW APPARENTLY "CLEAR". The alchemists and the "chymists" were usually very different in mentality. While a large number of "chymists" wrote quite clearly and were willing to openly share some of their findings (and even then they usually only openly shared the more mediocre of their processes; the more lucrative ones they do not describe as clearly and free of concealment or deliberate lies mixed in to confuse and mislead) the alchemists practically never wrote the more important parts of their science (specially the issue of the actual substances used, which is practically always littered with "decknamen") in a 100% clear manner that everyone (and then some!) could easily understand and replicate. So, if someone tells you that there is a "recipe" that "describes in a direct manner—that is, without much concealment or circumlocution—how to obtain the powder of projection" always suspect that this is most likely not so, and have a good chuckle at the person naive and inexperienced enough to actually think that such a supposedly totally clear "recipe" for the Stone exists. That was never the intention of the alchemists. Their intention was rather to make it more difficult for the average "Joe" to discover, not easier!


    I can easily go to a deep cave or a lead mine
    An alchemist in a lead mine or cave looking for


    is very much within the realm of possibility. What they perceived as the generation of metals is in question
    But miners and mineralogists have also been in those caves, and in our days many way deeper than any back in the alchemists' days, and they have found nothing like the alchemists claim regarding the supposed "generation" of metals. These quaint notions of the alchemists regarding how metals and minerals were supposedly generated inside the earth were based on the ancient theories of Aristotle, later on in the Middle Ages further developed by Muslim thinkers into the famous "sulphur-mercury" theory. Don't take them so seriously and so literally, or I guarantee you that you will be totally misled, as it happened to countless others who did just that. Boerhaave, for example, decided to put to the test some of the claims inspired by the more or less literal interpretations of such theories and patiently put such things as mercury and mercury amalgams to continuous "digestion", sometimes even for YEARS. Of course, nothing of what such claims say would happen actually happened. The mercury, either by itself or mixed with other things, always remained the same metal it always was.

  2. #312
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    333
    Blog Entries
    7
    There are indeed crystalline stones that surround and feed the lead mines
    in no way was that a deceptive ploy by the author, i can easily go find and study them

    Alchemists were very deceptive, but the same scrutiny that you afford them must also be afforded to you and any quotes of authors you use. You cannot say all alchemists are sly and concealed things, but the one's i quote dont and are being clear. Its hypocritical.

    But miners and mineralogists have also been in those caves, and in our days many way deeper than any back in the alchemists' days, and they have found nothing like the alchemists claim regarding the supposed "generation" of metals
    What they perceived as the generation of metals
    what they mistook and misinterpreted as generation of metals.
    Theres no smoke without fire, so some misunderstanding might of sparked this notion

  3. #313
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    901
    Quote Originally Posted by JDP
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmuldvich
    As for your post-script; I have worked with and am in the process of working with a single natural matter that has manifested all the colors you list except for Red (while I could technically say I have seen "red" manifest I will refrain because this minor red is not what you are really asking about). Every various product you list above I have worked with and seen with my own eyes as well as touched, smelled, and even tasted.
    I strongly doubt that you have seen all the things that guy describes from just one matter alone. The only natural substances that contain large amounts of the heavy metals that can produce such colors as he describes are of a mineral nature, and these lack the necessary "humidity" to be able to work on their own. And the non-mineral substances that do have it, largely lack these metals.
    Doubt all you will, JDP. I am telling you that I have found a single natural substance ("Our Matter") that displays all the things that guy and all other Adepts describe.

    I know, I know...baffling!

    Someone discovered something that you haven't discovered!! Mind blown...right!?


    Quote Originally Posted by JDP
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmuldivch
    Have you identified our ruddy red Man?

    Have you explored our shining Black Sea?

    Have you smelled our putrefied Black Goo?

    Have you touched our spongy Black Dough?

    Have you observed our humid Clear Vapor?

    Have you manifested our beautiful Gray Hoarfrost?

    Have you breathed in our White Sal Ammoniac?

    Have you nurtured our Citrine Star?

    Have you seen our Red Blood Moon?
    Have you seen the "Toad"? Have you seen it "blacken", and "puff", and "swell"? Have you seen the fumes, solids and liquids "it" produces? Have you seen the whitish, greenish, yellowish, and/or reddish distillates it can produce (depending on some of the substances employed) if you force "it" with fire?

    If you have, then you sure as heck are not working with "one matter only" in the true (i.e. quantitative) literal sense of that expression!
    Yes! I have seen our Toad.

    Yes! I have seen our Toad blacken, puff, and swell.

    Yes! I have indeed seen, touched, smelled, and tasted the fumes, solids, and liquids it produces.

    Yes! I have seen the off-White(clear), pure White, Greenish, and Yellowish distillates it produces. I have not yet seen the Reddish distillate it produces.

    No! I do not force it with fire. In fact, quite the opposite. I take my time, don't rush things at all, and let our Matter mature at its proper natural rate. It takes a long, long time to see these colors. Perhaps this is why you haven't seen this in your work. Maybe you rush things by aggressively forcing it with fire?

    JDP, here's the thing you will not accept or fail to realize...I am working with one Matter only. I call it "our Matter". We have had this discussion many times already; this Matter I work with is akin to mud, ocean water, and dare I say...blood even! All of these 3 things I consider "a single natural substance".

    What colors have you seen in your work...?

  4. #314
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,969
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmuldvich View Post
    Doubt all you will, JDP. I am telling you that I have found a single natural substance ("Our Matter") that displays all the things that guy and all other Adepts describe.

    I know, I know...baffling!

    Someone discovered something that you haven't discovered!! Mind blown...right!?
    Not only I, but no one else in more than 2000 years! That's one the things that makes your claims of having found such a "matter" supposedly already made somewhere in a natural setting so highly unlikely. There is no such thing, sorry. 2000+ years of all manner of investigators probing virtually every natural matter in existence pretty much gets rid of the possibility of such an idea. Every conceivable natural substance readily at the reach of man's hand has already been put inside flasks and retorts and submitted to pretty much any imaginable operation you could perform on a single matter. Nothing new under the sun here. It's a dead-end.

    Yes! I have seen our Toad.

    Yes! I have seen our Toad blacken, puff, and swell.

    Yes! I have indeed seen, touched, smelled, and tasted the fumes, solids, and liquids it produces.

    Yes! I have seen the off-White(clear), pure White, Greenish, and Yellowish distillates it produces. I have not yet seen the Reddish distillate it produces.

    No! I do not force it with fire. In fact, quite the opposite. I take my time, don't rush things at all, and let our Matter mature at its proper natural rate. It takes a long, long time to see these colors. Perhaps this is why you haven't seen this in your work. Maybe you rush things by aggressively forcing it with fire?
    But that's because you are not working on the right ARTIFICIAL COMPOSITE "matter", and also likely not in the right manner either (since you very likely have also fallen for the "one vessel only" claim that often accompanies the "one matter only" ruse.) Read about the "Magnesia", "Adrop", "Green Lion", "Sericon", etc. of the alchemists. After its CONFECTION, it is in fact submitted to gradual distillation until the distilling vessel is strongly heated to finish driving off all the "spirits" from the SECRET COMPOUND. That's how they get all the products they describe: the white "water", the yellow or red "oil", the "black earth" (which will have to be "whitened" through a series of operations) and the "Crown/Wreath of Victory" (i.e. the sublimate), and which you will NEVER, NOT EVEN IN A MILLION YEARS, see by operating on "one matter only" (in the true quantitative sense of that expression, not in the misleading manner of many alchemists, who give the name of "one matter" to their ARTIFICIAL COMPOSITE, actually made from several substances.)

    JDP, here's the thing you will not accept or fail to realize...I am working with one Matter only. I call it "our Matter". We have had this discussion many times already; this Matter I work with is akin to mud, ocean water, and dare I say...blood even! All of these 3 things I consider "a single natural substance".
    But these things above, and also whatever is it that you think is the "one matter only" that supposedly works, do not give all the colors the alchemists describe. See, the organic matters that you obviously have in mind lack the necessary metals to display such colors (most heavy metals in substantial quantities are toxic to most organisms, that's why you won't find much of them in organic matters.) And as long as you keep on working on any of these matters by themselves, you will never see everything the alchemists describe since they did also employ some mineral/metallic substances to make the Stone.

    What colors have you seen in your work...?
    I have seen many such colors in my experiments, but then again I have never fallen for the "one matter only" death-trap.

  5. #315
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,969
    Quote Originally Posted by Kibric View Post
    There are indeed crystalline stones that surround and feed the lead mines
    in no way was that a deceptive ploy by the author, i can easily go find and study them
    Have you seen samples of lead ores/minerals? Most of them don't seem to fit with such a description. And even if you can find some that do, the substances that surround them are just going to be other ordinary minerals, nothing that will afford you all the things the alchemists describe. Mineral matters by themselves are just about as big a total dead-end as organic matters by themselves.

    Alchemists were very deceptive, but the same scrutiny that you afford them must also be afforded to you and any quotes of authors you use. You cannot say all alchemists are sly and concealed things, but the one's i quote dont and are being clear. Its hypocritical.
    But I never said that the ones I quote are 100% clear either. All of them invariably try to disguise the substances employed. But some are more honest and clear than others in their "disguising" methods.

    what they mistook and misinterpreted as generation of metals.
    Theres no smoke without fire, so some misunderstanding might of sparked this notion
    OK.

  6. #316
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    901
    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Not only I, but no one else in more than 2000 years! That's one the things that makes your claims of having found such a "matter" supposedly already made somewhere in a natural setting so highly unlikely. There is no such thing, sorry.

    Every conceivable natural substance readily at the reach of man's hand has already been put inside flasks and retorts and submitted to pretty much any imaginable operation you could perform on a single matter. Nothing new under the sun here. It's a dead-end.
    What deficiency is present in your mode-of-thought that makes you unable to comprehend my words?!

    Again, I am telling/announcing/declaring/disclosing/explaining/expressing/informing/notifying/proclaiming/revealing/letting you know that I have found a Matter (...however you want to define this is fine; this is beside the point right now) that displays all the things that guy and all other Adepts describe.

    This is not conjecture, this is not speculative, this is a FACT...an empirical fact.

    Just because you haven't found it yet does not mean it does not exist.

    While this may in your opinion be "highly unlikely" it is not beyond reality. Are you really this arrogant and full-of-yourself to believe that only you are capable of discovering what the Alchemists have written about??? Seriously!

    I could post pictures. I could upload video. I could mail you portions of my Work. I could give you discourses on these substances you inquire about. But what will this accomplish??


    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    But these things above, and also whatever is it that you think is "one matter only" that supposedly works, do not give all the colors the alchemists describe. See, the organic matters that you obviously have in mind lack the necessary metals to display such colors (most heavy metals in substantial quantities are toxic to most organisms, that's why you won't find much of them in organic matters.) And as long as you keep on working on any of these matters by themselves, you will never see everything the alchemists describe since they did also employ some mineral/metallic substances to make the Stone.
    Yes, it does.

    Mind-blowing, I know.

    This is absolutely inconceivable to you!

    I love/hate to break it to you, JDP, but you are not all-knowing. Your opinions can be wrong.

    You are a well learned man, and you possess enormous amounts of scholarly knowledge; this is admirable. There are others out there who know more than you though, have more experience than you, and are further along than you.

  7. #317
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    5,364
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmuldvich View Post
    I could post pictures. I could upload video. I could mail you portions of my Work. I could give you discourses on these substances you inquire about. But what will this accomplish??
    It wouldn't accomplish anything.

    For anyone who has seen the movie 'Eric the Viking', it would be like bringing the christian priest to Valhalla. He would just not see it, because it doesn't compute with his belief system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmuldvich View Post
    There are others out there who know more than you though, have more experience than you, and are further along than you.
    Shush! Blasphemy!

  8. #318
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,969
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmuldvich View Post
    What deficiency is present in your mode-of-thought that makes you unable to comprehend my words?!

    Again, I am telling/announcing/declaring/disclosing/explaining/expressing/informing/notifying/proclaiming/revealing/letting you know that I have found a Matter (...however you want to define this is fine; this is beside the point right now) that displays all the things that guy and all other Adepts describe.

    This is not conjecture, this is not speculative, this is a FACT...an empirical fact.

    Just because you haven't found it yet does not mean it does not exist.

    While this may in your opinion be "highly unlikely" it is not beyond reality. Are you really this arrogant and full-of-yourself to believe that only you are capable of discovering what the Alchemists have written about??? Seriously!

    I could post pictures. I could upload video. I could mail you portions of my Work. I could give you discourses on these substances you inquire about. But what will this accomplish??




    Yes, it does.

    Mind-blowing, I know.

    This is absolutely inconceivable to you!

    I love/hate to break it to you, JDP, but you are not all-knowing. Your opinions can be wrong.

    You are a well learned man, and you possess enormous amounts of scholarly knowledge; this is admirable. There are others out there who know more than you though, have more experience than you, and are further along than you.
    You keep failing to understand that it is not just "me", you are butting heads with the ACCUMULATED COLLECTIVE EXPERIENCE OF MANKIND here by making these strange claims. In the hundreds and hundreds of years of all manner of thousands and thousands of "puffers" who were searching for the Stone, many also fell for the "one matter only" trap, and they submitted virtually every natural matter they knew of to all manner of operations. What did they achieve? A big NOTHING! And the scorn of the alchemists (like in that quote of Villanova that I reproduced for you in another thread, where he scoffs those who take matters like blood and submit them to all manner of operations.) Then, starting from the 16th century on, came several hundred years worth of "chymists" and later chemists (you know, like French and Boerhaave, who you strangely think were "adepts"!) submitting every sort of natural matter known to them to "analysis by fire". They too recorded nothing that is an adequate match to what the alchemists describe. So, it is not just me, you are in fact going against the grain of all those droves of experimenters from past centuries who also tinkered with virtually every natural substance known to man. So, if you claim that you have found one such natural matter that fits with everything the alchemists say, you have found something very unusual and rare that all those people somehow totally failed to notice. Besides being EXTREMELY UNLIKELY that you really have done this, that also violates another mantra that is closely associated with the "one matter only" ruse: this mysterious "one matter" is also paradoxically "found everywhere", at everyone's reach. You know, "the poor and the rich alike" have this supposed "matter" at their fingertips. See all the problems and blatant contradictions with this fairy tale now? There is no escape, my friend. The only way you could ever find such a "matter" is if... you actually make it by putting the right substances together.

  9. #319
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    660
    Come on.
    Schmuldvich and JDP, this is really getting boring now.
    Tell some recipies (similar to what z 0k did - I forgot to thank you!) that can be verified by others or let it be. This leads to nowhere.
    There is also no need for different belief systems imo. If you see something unusual either the explanation or maybe you have to change. JDP already has been convinced by chymical transmutation. Not everyone would do that. I know scientist that would rather explain that observation with "dirt-effects" as it simply cannot be inside their system.

  10. #320
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    901

    Really?!

    You still cannot believe it, can you!

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    You keep failing to understand that it is not just "me", you are butting heads with the ACCUMULATED COLLECTIVE EXPERIENCE OF MANKIND here by making these strange claims.
    I am absolutely/completely/entirely/positively/thoroughly/totally aware of this!

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    In the hundreds and hundreds of years of all manner of thousands and thousands of "puffers" who were searching for the Stone, many also fell for the "one matter only" trap, and they submitted virtually every natural matter they knew of to all manner of operations. What did they achieve? A big NOTHING!
    No. Most achieved a "big NOTHING". Some, very few, achieved Success.

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    So, it is not just me, you are in fact going against the grain of all those droves of experimenters from past centuries who also experimented with virtually every natural substance known to man.
    Yes!

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    So, if you claim that you have found one such natural matter that fits with everything the alchemists say, you have found something very unusual and rare that all those people somehow totally failed to notice.
    YES!

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Besides being EXTREMELY UNLIKELY that you really have done this, that also violates another mantra that is closely associated with the "one matter only" ruse: this mysterious "one matter" is also paradoxically "found everywhere", at everyone's reach.
    YES!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    You know, "the poor and the rich alike" have this supposed "matter" at their fingertips.
    YES!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    The only way you could ever find such a "matter" is if... you actually make it by putting the right substances together.
    No! The only way you can find such a "matter" is by "putting the right substances together".

    Did you already forget about the part where I told you (twice) that I have found and am working with something that displays all the things that guy and all other Adepts describe?

    As infuriating/frustrating/disappointing/depressing/discouraging as this may sound to you it is a FACT -- an empirical fact -- that I have discovered what the Adepts described. I like to call it our Matter and I am not the only one working with it.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts