Patrons of the Sacred Art

OPEN TO REGISTER: Click HERE if you want to join Alchemy Forums!

+ Reply to Thread
Page 36 of 43 FirstFirst ... 26 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 ... LastLast
Results 351 to 360 of 422

Thread: 'One Matter' - Empiricism & Alchemy - Discerning Truth from Deception

  1. #351
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    400
    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    This is hardly a "mystery". Some alchemists made a big deal out of the "fire" but they were not talking about the "natural fire" (i.e. heat) used for making the substances involved in the processes react, which is not really any "mystery" but something so common that everyone knows about it (many alchemists often compared their endeavors to things going on in a housewife's or a cook's kitchen, since they also used fire for most of their tasks.) As explained before, the difficulty was in controlling this "natural fire" because back in those days they only had wood and coal furnaces. But we today have the great advantage of the easier to control gas and electricity to supply heat to the substances involved in the processes.
    Alchemists are not called fire philosophers for no reason, an alchemist knows at least six types of fire, the vulgar fire or the kitchen fire makes seven.

  2. #352
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    282
    Blog Entries
    6
    @JDP
    @Luxus
    @Andro
    Are we all in agreement that the " secret fire " is a special water or Oil ?
    I would love to hear y'all thoughts on the subject

  3. #353
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    488
    Quote Originally Posted by Kibric View Post
    @JDP
    @Luxus
    @Andro
    Are we all in agreement that the " secret fire " is a special water or Oil ?
    I would love to hear y'all thoughts on the subject
    I can't speak for the others, and I wasn't specifically addressed, but I wonder about this point quite a lot. In spagyrics, the solvent carries the "fire," but I don't think this interpretation is correct. Fire is one of the four elements, contained in everything to some degree along with Air, Water, and Earth. Some products are stronger in one element than another. I think the initial mix (or single material if that's your thing) evolves these elements during fermentation. I think of "balancing the elements" as more of a Clue to how the principals should be mixed. I.E. you extract the Mercury, Sulphur, and Salt from the prepared Prima Materia, and recombine it in agreement with a balanced mix of elements.

    The Mercury contains the water, the Sulphur the air, and the Salt the earth. They all carry their own special fire, but I believe most of it is found in both the Mercury and Sulphur. The matrix is constructed from Sulphur and Salt, and everything is balanced in the presence of Mercury, which flows through the setup to infuse the matrix with just enough, so that the first order Stone can be evolved. More Mercury and Sulphur can further evolve the stone from the White to Yellow to Red.

    All speculation of course. This is just how I see the process going. I'm still collecting my "ingredients" for this year's attempt.

  4. #354
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    400
    To me there are seven fires and the only one I would describe as a fiery water is ignis mineralis, our double vinegar or menstruum. The secret fire ignis secretus is something else in my thinking.

  5. #355
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    797
    Quote Originally Posted by Luxus View Post
    To me there are seven fires and the only one I would describe as a fiery water is ignis mineralis, our double vinegar or menstruum. The secret fire ignis secretus is something else in my thinking.
    What are the other 6 fires?

  6. #356
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,646
    Quote Originally Posted by Kibric View Post
    @JDP
    @Luxus
    @Andro
    Are we all in agreement that the " secret fire " is a special water or Oil ?
    I would love to hear y'all thoughts on the subject
    It depends on the author, as they did not consistently use this expression. Some examples: Pontanus says it's something that "is taken and originates elsewhere than in the matter" of the Stone (notice, incidentally, that therefore he is in fact saying that more than one substance is used in the operations), but by his description of what this "secret fire" is it seems to me like he means no other thing than the secret solvent, which many other authors use other terms for. Artephius does the same thing: his "secret fire" is nothing other than the secret solvent or "water". The author of The Hermetic Triumph, on the other hand, uses the expression for an artificial substance known to chymistry (as he implies, you can hire an experienced chymist to make it for you, if you don't want or don't know how to do it yourself) and used in the operations for making the Stone (notice, again, that this author is obviously implying here that more than one substance is used in making the Stone.) Some writers say that the red distillate or "oil" is the "fire" or contains it. Not all of them used the same expressions to mean the same things.

  7. #357
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,646
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmuldvich View Post
    What are the other 6 fires?
    Not sure where he is getting that number from. Maybe he will tell us. The Lullian alchemists usually considered only 4 "fires":

    1- Fire Against Nature (usually meant as common corrosive "spirits" or salts)

    2- Elemental Fire (usually meant as the common fire or its effects)

    3- Unnatural or Preternatural Fire (usually meant as the secret solvent)

    4- Fire of Nature (this one is trickier, as sometimes also means the secret solvent, but also can be meant as controlled common fires, like sand-baths or water-baths, and yet other times can also mean a more abstract theoretical concept, like a "fire" latent "in everything")

  8. #358
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    260
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon's Tail View Post
    I can't speak for the others, and I wasn't specifically addressed, but I wonder about this point quite a lot. In spagyrics, the solvent carries the "fire," but I don't think this interpretation is correct. Fire is one of the four elements, contained in everything to some degree along with Air, Water, and Earth. Some products are stronger in one element than another. I think the initial mix (or single material if that's your thing) evolves these elements during fermentation. I think of "balancing the elements" as more of a Clue to how the principals should be mixed. I.E. you extract the Mercury, Sulphur, and Salt from the prepared Prima Materia, and recombine it in agreement with a balanced mix of elements.

    The Mercury contains the water, the Sulphur the air, and the Salt the earth. They all carry their own special fire, but I believe most of it is found in both the Mercury and Sulphur. The matrix is constructed from Sulphur and Salt, and everything is balanced in the presence of Mercury, which flows through the setup to infuse the matrix with just enough, so that the first order Stone can be evolved. More Mercury and Sulphur can further evolve the stone from the White to Yellow to Red.

    All speculation of course. This is just how I see the process going. I'm still collecting my "ingredients" for this year's attempt.
    You are right the Spagyrics interpretation of solvent and Fire is incorrect according to Alchemical Philosophy. In Spagyrics the solvent is foreign to the matter so it is not Philosophical. In Alchemical Philosophy the solvent comes from the matter itself not from some outside material added to it like alcohol. The secret solvent is in the matter itself and never in any remote matter. The secret solvent is in potential in the starting matter. Fermentation will not manifest the potential. Putrefaction will but only putrefaction by Fire which can be carried out in stages to condense the matter prior to the final putrefaction.

    Fire like all Elements is subtle and/or gross in action. The Subtle Fire is Secret and Philosophical. To observe it cut yourself off from all stimuli for a time. The Gross Fire sets the stage for the Subtle Fire. To see the Subtle Fire in action observe the process of incubation. In it the Gross Fire must be maintained like a hen incubating her egg. Why, so the Secret Fire can germinate the Quintessence from the purified Philosophical Principles: Body, Soul and Spirit.

    Elemental Water carries Philosophical Mercury. Or, Philosophical Mercury hides in Elemental Water. Philosophical Sulfur carries Elemental Fire. Or, Philosophical Sulfur hides in Elemental Fire. When the Fire and Water are joined we have Philosophical Mercury or Mercury Duplex.

    The White Stone is made with Elemental Water purified of feces from the putrefaction, Mercury Simplex. When pure of feces after about 10 rotations the Water can make the White Stone. The Philosophical putrefaction of the starting matter released all the Elements from their previous bonds. Then the Elements were in a Chaos as Ripley says. Remove the feces and the Elements can become one new thing after incubation.

    The Red Stone is made with purified Elemental Fire joined to purified Elemental Water, Mercury Duplex. Purification of Elemental Fire is a great secret that I have never seen described clearly or correctly in the process.

  9. #359
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    400
    1: Ignis Deus

    The first cause. In the beginning the creator said let there be light and this light issued forth from the substance of God which is Ignis Deus.

    2: Ignis Universalis

    The celestial fire which manifests in the lights of the stars, our Sun and planets. The influence of which manifests as the metals in the bowls of the Earth.

    3: Ignis Intellectus

    The fire that illuminates the mind of the Alchemist and is manifest in the spark within his eyes. If this fire burns bright he will understand the writings of the sages if not he has no chance in understanding this art.

    4: Ignis Mineralis

    Our mineral fire, our double sharp vinegar, our fiery water, our menstruum which solves our matter.

    5: Ignis Subterraneis

    Our inner fire which lies hid within our salt, our central Sun.

    6: Ignis secretus

    Our secret fire, the Promethean fire.

    7: Ignis Vulgaris

    The common elemental fire, the fire of the forge.

  10. #360
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    282
    Blog Entries
    6
    @Dragons Tail
    I can't speak for the others, and I wasn't specifically addressed, but I wonder about this point quite a lot.
    Sorry fellow i should of thought of you. Yes i wonder a lot about it too.
    They all carry their own special fire, but I believe most of it is found in both the Mercury and Sulphur. The matrix is constructed from Sulphur and Salt, and everything is balanced in the presence of Mercury, which flows through the setup to infuse the matrix with just enough, so that the first order Stone can be evolved
    The actual reaction being the " Fire " so to speak
    @JDP
    but by his description of what this "secret fire" is it seems to me like he means no other thing than the secret solvent, which many other authors use other terms for. Artephius does the same thing: his "secret fire" is nothing other than the secret solvent or "water"
    That the way i am leaning, but the " Heat of a man or hand " pops up a bit and i wondered if the alchemists were being sly
    trying to conceal that the " secret solvent " only achieves the right reaction at the " Heat of a man or hand ".
    @Luxus
    Our secret fire, the Promethean fire
    If i wasn't leaning towards the " secret solvent " being the secret fire, electromagnetic radiation emitted from the human body or electrostatic fields generated from obelisks.
    The secret fire is an enigmatic thing it seems even between alchemists apparently successful in producing the stone.
    @z0 K
    Purification of Elemental Fire is a great secret that I have never seen described clearly or correctly in the process.
    So you must know this secret or you couldn't make that observation ?
    I am a little confused as to what you mean by purification of elemental fire, is it very literal ?

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts