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Thread: 'One Matter' - Empiricism & Alchemy - Discerning Truth from Deception

  1. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by black View Post
    Hi JDP

    To my understanding you most definitely believe in transmutation
    of base metals into gold and silver because you have seen this and
    have accomplished this yourself.

    To you this is a known fact ! I assume.
    Yes, correct, and sometime in the future I intend to publish at least some of these processes that give positive results.

    What are your views of the Philosophers Stone ?
    Since transmutation is real, I don't see why it's supposedly so "impossible" that the Stone should exist. On top of that, so many people saw samples of this thing in action that it would be difficult to envision that all of them could be mistaken or lying.

    Note: here is where some people try to use this as an excuse to pass other claims as "possible" or even "real"; you know, like: "many people say they have seen UFOs, or angels, or demons, so why should that be any different???" Well, it is different because in the historical witness accounts of samples of the Stone these were actually PUT TO THE TEST either in front of skeptical witnesses or by the skeptical witnesses themselves, and observed to work as claimed by the alchemists. The anecdotes of people who say that UFOs, angels, demons, ghosts, vampires, zombies, the Tooth Fairy, Elvis Presley faked his own death and is actually still roaming around, etc., are actually accompanied by ZERO corroborating samples, therefore these types of claims wholly rely on the word of the claimants, nothing else. None of them can be put to the test and confirmed by others who did not see these things. Very different from the historical witness accounts of the Stone.

  2. #372
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    You can't claim that because you have seen transmutation, and others back in the day saw it too, thus its real, but then simultaneously state that because you haven't seen something, and some others have not either, yet thousands (millions? Billions?) throughout recorded history, and today, skeptics included, modern scientists and highly educated individuals on the topics as well, far more people than have seen transmutation, have seen those things, and yet you would totally dismiss them as fake. That is a hell of a logic fallacy. At the end of the day, the only real reason you don't believe in a thing, is because you haven't experienced them. Not because they don't exist or because they haven't been "proven".
    I've never seen for myself a dinosaur, Darwinian evolution, or a star turn into a black hole; but I have seen angels, demons, gods/archons, The All/One God, and a lot of other things you are no doubt rolling your eyes at. I wouldn't call you a liar or fraud for believing in the prior list; yet I'd be marked as such for stating the second. That's a double standard.
    (And no, I didn't see any of it while on any drugs, trips, etc; and yeah, other people around me have seen them and the effects of them. Tis'n't just me, though I seem to be a catalyst for it all. )

    https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/04/healt...tor/index.html

    ^There is a scientist, a trained psychiatrist, who has seen and experienced some shit. He is not the only one, not by a long shot.
    So either a staggering majority of humans throughout time have been and still are delusional at a fundamental level, with only a few rational handfuls who see the real world, OR, there are more things under heaven and earth than are poked and prodded in your lab.

    Fun fact; while you may not believe in ghosts, on some legal level, they exist.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stambovsky_v._Ackley



    ~Seth-Ra
    One fatal tree there stands of knowledge called, forbidden them to taste. Knowledge forbidden? Suspicious. Reasonless. And why should their Lord envy them that? Can it be sin to know? Can it be death? And do they stand by ignorance, is that their happy state, the proof of their obedience and their faith?

  3. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth-Ra View Post
    You can't claim that because you have seen transmutation, and others back in the day saw it too, thus its real, but then simultaneously state that because you haven't seen something, and some others have not either, yet thousands (millions? Billions?) throughout recorded history, and today, skeptics included, modern scientists and highly educated individuals on the topics as well, far more people than have seen transmutation, have seen those things, and yet you would totally dismiss them as fake. That is a hell of a logic fallacy. At the end of the day, the only real reason you don't believe in a thing, is because you haven't experienced them. Not because they don't exist or because they haven't been "proven".
    I've never seen for myself a dinosaur, Darwinian evolution, or a star turn into a black hole; but I have seen angels, demons, gods/archons, The All/One God, and a lot of other things you are no doubt rolling your eyes at. I wouldn't call you a liar or fraud for believing in the prior list; yet I'd be marked as such for stating the second. That's a double standard.
    (And no, I didn't see any of it while on any drugs, trips, etc; and yeah, other people around me have seen them and the effects of them. Tis'n't just me, though I seem to be a catalyst for it all. )

    https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/04/healt...tor/index.html

    ^There is a scientist, a trained psychiatrist, who has seen and experienced some shit. He is not the only one, not by a long shot.
    So either a staggering majority of humans throughout time have been and still are delusional at a fundamental level, with only a few rational handfuls who see the real world, OR, there are more things under heaven and earth than are poked and prodded in your lab.

    Fun fact; while you may not believe in ghosts, on some legal level, they exist.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stambovsky_v._Ackley



    ~Seth-Ra
    The difference, again, is that historically the Stone has been put to the test by people who did not prepare it or even believed in it, but all the "supernatural" type of claims are only hearsay, or when allegedly "confirmed" it was by people who also believed in such things, so their "confirmation" might very well have been biased. Not the same situation.

    Regarding the many "millions" who claim to have seen or performed all that supernatural stuff: for decades James Randi has been offering a one million dollar prize to anyone who can prove UNDER CONTROLLED CONDITIONS (that means: NO CHEATING POSSIBLE!) any of such claims. Guess how many who say they have seen or performed such strange supernatural/psychic/paranormal things and claim they can actually prove them have been able to even pass a preliminary test for the challenge? **drum roll** A BIG FAT ZERO! We are talking about several decades worth of THOUSANDS of applicants from all over the world, and not a single one was able to make it past the simple preliminary tests. I think this evidence alone speaks volumes about how "reliable" are the people who make such claims.

  4. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    The difference, again, is that historically the Stone has been put to the test by people who did not prepare it or even believed in it, but all the "supernatural" type of claims are only hearsay, or when allegedly "confirmed" it was by people who also believed in such things, so their "confirmation" might very well have been biased. Not the same situation.

    Regarding the many "millions" who claim to have seen or performed all that supernatural stuff: for decades James Randi has been offering a one million dollar prize to anyone who can prove UNDER CONTROLLED CONDITIONS (that means: NO CHEATING POSSIBLE!) any of such claims. Guess how many who say they have seen or performed such strange supernatural/psychic/paranormal things and claim they can actually prove them have been able to even pass a preliminary test for the challenge? **drum roll** A BIG FAT ZERO! We are talking about several decades worth of THOUSANDS of applicants from all over the world, and not a single one was able to make it past the simple preliminary tests. I think this evidence alone speaks volumes about how "reliable" are the people who make such claims.
    If James Randi offered TEN million dollars for proof of the
    Philosophers Stone, I wonder how many would step forward
    to claim the prize ???

    I know for a fact that if I had the Stone I wouldn't be fronting
    up to his door for the $10,000,000.

    To my understanding an ADEPT would not even consider it.

    The Stone is the Gift of Gifts ... the Secret of all Secrets.

    Priceless in comparison to anything in this earthly realm.

    But again this is just my perspective.

  5. #375
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    @ Seth-Ra

    Quite true Mr. Seth-Ra, there are more things under heaven and earth
    that only a handful of man can understand .... the rest of mankind
    can not even dream of these things.

  6. #376
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    More from the recently published translation of Hermetic Recreations:

    This proposition [...] sent everyone in quest for a first matter to achieve this purpose, thinking correctly that isolated Elements could not lead to it, whereas a body completely composed of it, yet still in its state of simplicity, was the only one that could reasonably be used to find the point of perfection. With enormous effort, some finally discovered it; but finding nothing in Nature capable of dissolving it, despite its simplicity, and being unable to extract the elements by any other means, they thought it best to go back to their common source, and having drawn from it, they happily succeeded in reaching their intended end.
    Even more pertinent to our present topic is the following:

    Above all, do not wait for any proof of our statements, for no one will be inclined to give you any.

  7. #377
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    Good ole James Randi's prize and testing was terminated in 2015.

    But who needs that, when you can succeed without it: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...new-would.html

    If one knows how the real thing works, one knows that you can't abuse it without repercussions. There's more to it than possessing an ability to flaunt. On the rare occasion, they get to do the above. Rest of the time, there are more important things to do. Don't let the Hollywood fakes speak for everyone; just because someone gets airtime, doesn't mean they should or that what they do/say/offer is all there is on that topic.
    Also note, not everyone that experienced the spiritual has a background in it or even believes it.
    Here is a list of former atheists and agnostics that are fairly popular/prominent: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List..._and_agnostics
    People who don't believe, often have to when they've experienced. (Just like those who used the Stone.)

    There are more non-believers who have become believers (more accurately I'd call them "knowers") through personal experience, than there are people who have seen the Stone and/or beheld transmutation at any significant, provable, level in the lab.
    You and I will agree that transmutation is possible because we've seen it. We disagree on the other, because only I have seen it. likewise, and back to the topic of the thread; you will disagree with most lab workers here, because those who work with any singular living substance, knows a Stone can be made from it, and as such, can see the Way to The Stone once they realize they are only ever working with One Thing; the Quintessence itself, in various fractals.
    Until you experience it though, you'll think we are all crazy, which to some degree is fair, but not when your only "proofs" are the acknowledgements of skeptics, and only for the topic you like, while disregarding it for the other. (Especially when they go hand in hand.)
    _________


    Mr. Black, most don't want to dream them, and even if they did, they'd swear they needed some sort of medication to cease it. lol
    Pearls before swine; that's why it doesn't happen.
    One fatal tree there stands of knowledge called, forbidden them to taste. Knowledge forbidden? Suspicious. Reasonless. And why should their Lord envy them that? Can it be sin to know? Can it be death? And do they stand by ignorance, is that their happy state, the proof of their obedience and their faith?

  8. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth-Ra View Post
    Good ole James Randi's prize and testing was terminated in 2015.

    But who needs that, when you can succeed without it: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...new-would.html
    Or maybe, just maybe, she just got lucky this time As several people commented on the article, how many times these "psychics" get these "gut feelings" but in fact do not win anything? Somehow I suspect that they far outweigh the few times that they do win something. When you start considering all the details, such anecdotes are not really convincing at all. Now, if under CONTROLLED CONDITIONS one of these "psychics" keeps on hitting on winning numbers repeatedly and consistently, then yes, that would be impressive.

    If one knows how the real thing works, one knows that you can't abuse it without repercussions. There's more to it than possessing an ability to flaunt. On the rare occasion, they get to do the above. Rest of the time, there are more important things to do. Don't let the Hollywood fakes speak for everyone; just because someone gets airtime, doesn't mean they should or that what they do/say/offer is all there is on that topic.
    Also note, not everyone that experienced the spiritual has a background in it or even believes it.
    I don't buy these kinds of arguments. Many people who believe in this kind of stuff are deeply desirous to try to convince others of what they believe. The fact is that invariably they fail to do so. Out of the thousands of people who tried to win Randi's million dollar prize, a lot of them were not cheats or con-men but people who actually and sincerely believed what they claimed. They invariably failed to demonstrate the things they thought were "real" just as much as the con-artists who didn't but tried to swindle their way to the prize anyway.

    There are more non-believers who have become believers (more accurately I'd call them "knowers") through personal experience, than there are people who have seen the Stone and/or beheld transmutation at any significant, provable, level in the lab.
    But that's because the Stone and transmutation are much harder to investigate and achieve. It actually requires a lot of study and investment of both time and money to unravel them. The majority of people nowadays are totally unqualified to pursue such investigations. The fact that chemistry has been engaged in a ferocious anti-transmutation campaign for some 200+ years now has made this topic quite unpopular with the average person, a mere shadow of what it once was. In older times the number of people investigating these subjects was much more numerous than today. You could find alchemists and "puffers" at all levels of society, from the richest to the poorest. The author of the Examen Alchymisticum pokes fun at this: "Almost everyone wants to be called an alchemist; a rude idiot, the boy and the old man, the barber, the old woman, a facetious adviser, the shaven monk, the priest and the soldier."

    You and I will agree that transmutation is possible because we've seen it. We disagree on the other, because only I have seen it.
    But you can prove transmutation; the other things... I strongly doubt it. And it is not for lack of trying (not on your part, but on that of the many who have tried and totally failed.)

    likewise, and back to the topic of the thread; you will disagree with most lab workers here, because those who work with any singular living substance, knows a Stone can be made from it, and as such, can see the Way to The Stone once they realize they are only ever working with One Thing; the Quintessence itself, in various fractals.
    Until you experience it though, you'll think we are all crazy, which to some degree is fair, but not when your only "proofs" are the acknowledgements of skeptics, and only for the topic you like, while disregarding it for the other. (Especially when they go hand in hand.)
    Again, it just isn't the empirical experience of one single person, but that of a lot of people through many centuries which casts very reasonable strong doubts on the belief that any such "one matter" exists in nature that can show all of what the alchemists describe.

  9. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by black View Post
    If James Randi offered TEN million dollars for proof of the
    Philosophers Stone, I wonder how many would step forward
    to claim the prize ???

    I know for a fact that if I had the Stone I wouldn't be fronting
    up to his door for the $10,000,000.

    To my understanding an ADEPT would not even consider it.

    The Stone is the Gift of Gifts ... the Secret of all Secrets.

    Priceless in comparison to anything in this earthly realm.

    But again this is just my perspective.
    I don't see why not. It's not like Randi would be requiring for you to let him know how the Stone is made. You would have to donate a sample so he and his people can put it to the test and confirm that in fact it does transmute metals into silver and gold. This type of demonstrations have been done many times in the past. The world did not come to an end because of them.

  10. #380
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    But you can prove transmutation; the other things... I strongly doubt it.
    The CIA not far back released over a couple million files, many containing documentation on astral travel which is considered by the mainstream as hocus pocus
    but they kept the program running because they had successful verifiable repeatable results.

    Statically given the amount of UFO sightings that are reported everyday to the Air Force for the last 70 years
    its impossible all of them can be explained away as natural phenomena mistaken identity or fabrication.
    Not only that but its so common all military services have protocols in place developed over decades of observation and interaction with UFO's.
    People with money who can spend billions researching unexplainable phenomena aren't interested in proving it to anyone they're interested in using it.

    Transmutation is just one of the many things you can prove. It would be fair to say given the secretive nature and obscurity of alchemy
    even when it was popular, that other more widely available fringe subjects have had more time and research from more people.
    Because of this there is bound to be more evidence for these types of phenomena documented and verified by more than one person than there is evidence of transmutation.

    Last edited by Kibric; 04-12-2018 at 03:31 PM.

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