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Thread: 'One Matter' - Empiricism & Alchemy - Discerning Truth from Deception

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    You could spend 1000 years trying to test it everyday and it could just not happen.
    Or it could happen. We won't know until we actually spend this time, BUT:

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    it would be a case simply impossible to investigate.
    YES!

    Just like it is IMPOSSIBLE to investigate (not to mention prove or predict!) pretty much anything (model/outcome) with certainty. ALL models, be they scientific, mathematical, logical, etc - are founded on assumptions/axioms that are IMPOSSIBLE to ever prove with certainty. That's why we also need to "make allowance" in our inquisitive minds for the least probable, for the "irrational", for what seems to defy "common sense". If we don't "make allowance" for this, we're not scientists - we're zealots.

    I have deliberately used the Douglas Adams example to take this exchange to a particular extreme, leading to the aforementioned impossibility of proving certainty. This impossibility is just as valid for less "extreme" cases. The scientific/empirical mind needs to account/adjust for this.

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    Last edited by Andro; 12-18-2017 at 08:56 PM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awani View Post
    Nothing has been debunked, and if you study history you know that many things have been debunked in the past that later turned out to be NOT debunked.
    Hundreds of such claims have been investigated and tested. None of them showed that what the claimants said was real. We can safely conclude that no such phenomena has ever been truly observed by anyone.

    As for the rest, especially your "knowledge" of Andro's experience, I will go back to what we talked about long ago when I told you to give me proof that you love your parents/wife/child (if you love them that is). You can't prove it, and you don't really have an obligaton to do so either.
    There is a big difference between "love", a subjective feeling, and "levitating", which should it really happen would be defying the pull of gravity, something that everyone can objectively observe and does not vary from one individual to the next. One can be debated, the other one can't. Either you can defy the pull of gravity through some mysterious "power" or you can't.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    Or it could happen. We won't know until we actually spend this time, BUT:



    YES!

    Just like it is IMPOSSIBLE to investigate (not to mention prove or predict!) pretty much anything (model/outcome) with certainty. ALL models, be they scientific, mathematical, logical, etc - are founded on assumptions/axioms that are IMPOSSIBLE to ever prove with certainty. That's why we also need to "make allowance" in our inquisitive minds for the least probable, for the "irrational", for what seems to defy "common sense". If we don't "make allowance" for this, we're not scientists - we're zealots.

    I have deliberately used the Douglas Adams example to take this exchange to a particular extreme, leading to the aforementioned impossibility of proving certainty. This impossibility is just as valid for less "extreme" cases. The scientific/empirical mind needs to account/adjust for this.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    It can be "predicted" because our daily experience shows us that such a thing does not happen. Saying that something cannot be investigated on purpose because of the uncertain nature of the claim itself (i.e. it may happen or it may not happen, since the human test subject is not in control of the claimed phenomenon) does not mean that it does or it must exist. Sticking to our example of "avoiding" a collision with the ground when you fall: since falling down happens on a daily basis to millions of people all over the planet, we should expect reports of such freak "avoidance" to happen at least every now and then. We are talking about the collective experience of mankind here, not just of one or a few individuals. Over the years we would certainly get a few reports of witnesses who saw someone fall down and incredibly enough not hit the ground. But how many such reports have you ever heard of? So far I can't recall even one. That by itself already does not give much of any encouragement that such a phenomenon can actually be real.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Hundreds of such claims have been investigated and tested. None of them showed that what the claimants said was real. We can safely conclude that no such phenomena has ever been truly observed by anyone.

    https://www.theepochtimes.com/historys-most-outstanding-case-of-levitation-witnessed-by-multitudes-expert-discusses_1413136.html

  5. #55
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    You tell me what's more likely to be the case: Copertino really "levitated" or maybe, just maybe, he was a pretty good illusionist? For example, I saw David Copperfield make an elephant disappear. It sure seems like he did! But I happen to know he uses tricks to achieve such illusions. I also saw David Blaine "levitate" in front of people, right on the streets of cities, without any stage! But I also happen to know he is no "saint" that somehow can really defy gravity. He is just a clever illusionist. What I mean by this is that people can be misled into seeing things which are not really there, or are not really happening like they look like they are happening. The difference is that illusionists/magicians are honest and admit that the whole thing is a trick. The charlatans do not, and try to deceive others into thinking that such things are real. That's why such extraordinary claims need testing under controlled conditions (where cheating is taken out of the equation) in order to be really proven.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    That by itself already does not give much of any encouragement that such a phenomenon can actually be real.
    Indeed. But it doesn't empirically prove the impossibility of it, either. Therefore, it is not a FACT. While we can predict a very high probability to fall, we still cannot predict is as a FACT.

    I'm not saying it's a common occurrence to float in the air. What I'm saying is that an open & inquisitive mind should most definitely not rule out the possibility, as slight as it might be.

    Another interesting possibility is that such cases are more common than we might suspect, but the people involved make a conscious decision NOT to come forward. The prospects of becoming a lab rat are not so encouraging, either... And how about successful adepts? Why aren't THEY "coming out"? Why aren't THEY going to be have their transmutations tested by Randy in a "controlled environment"?

    What would be more disturbing to the status quo? Official proof of alchemical transmutation? Or human levitation?

    Randy himself didn't come out as gay until late in life. Certain people prefer to keep their "different-ness" a secret, and often for good reason, such as for fear of persecution, demonization or the likes of it.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    such extraordinary claims need testing under controlled conditions (where cheating is taken out of the equation) in order to be really proven.
    And what if those "controlled environments" also take the associated emotional/meditative states out of the equation? It's a double-edged sword. I'm not saying there aren't plenty of charlatans, but I for one deeply doubt that people with genuine abilities would allow themselves to be "tested" in this manner.

    Most historical accounts of levitation occur under unique circumstances, not very easy to recreate in a "controlled environment".

    Here are the main categories of recorded occurrences of human levitation:

    After studying all the accounts, it becomes clear that levitation can be broken down into seven main categories:

    ONE: Ecstatic Levitation. Most commonly experienced by Saints or the very religious, this type of levitation involves the witness experiencing a state of divine union with God. The episodes usually (but not always) occur after years of prayer and devotion and may be provoked by exposure to religious paraphernalia, Nature, music, or during prayer, at which point the witness falls into an ecstatic trance. The body may become rigid as it is slowly lifted up into the air where it remains suspended for the duration of the trance, which can last from minutes to hours. In some cases, visible light is emitted from the body. These states are usually involuntary, unexpected and uncontrollable. They are said to be caused by the grace of God.

    TWO: Meditative Levitation. Most commonly experienced by yogis, ascetics, shamans, mystics, sorcerers…this is differentiated from ecstatic levitation in that it is an apparently fostered talent, one that is intentionally cultivated, controlled and developed through specific techniques involving breath-control, meditation, fasting, chastity, mantras or other methods. It is presumably internally generated by the power of the human organism and is controllable. Otherwise, it seems closely related or nearly identical to ecstatic levitation.

    THREE:
    Crisis Levitation. This type of levitation is reported by all kinds of people regardless of culture, age, race, sex, religion or level of spiritual development. It occurs during a time of emergency or trauma, usually falls or in some cases illness, saving the witness from injury or death. The episodes are typically of brief duration and are not controlled. They are usually attributed by the witnesses to guardian spirits or angels.

    FOUR:
    Mediumistic Levitation. This occurs to all people, but most often to so-called psychic mediums. The episodes are usually brief, lasting a few seconds to a few minutes. Like meditative levitation, mediumistic levitation is controllable, though this is not always the case. However, it is differentiated from meditative levitation in that it appears to be generated by an outside force, usually postulated as spirits or ghosts, or sometimes God or the Devil, as opposed to being internally generated. It also differs from meditative levitation in that it occurs with little or no spiritual training from the witness.

    FIVE: Spontaneous Levitation. This category involves those levitations that seem to have no obvious trigger. Occurring most often to young children, it can happen at any time. It usually lasts only moments and there is little control over the events, but they may return briefly, on and off, for a period of months. They seem to occur more commonly to people who have strong spiritual inclinations.

    SIX: Sleeping Levitation. This rare form of levitation occurs only when the percipient is asleep. It is reported by all kinds of people and can last for seconds, minutes or longer. The levitator remains in a horizontal floating position. Sometimes the levitator may awaken. Other times, the levitation is witnessed by others.

    SEVEN:
    Traveling Levitation. Also called running levitation or supernatural agility, this form of levitation involves rising not so much upwards as forwards. It is reported in many different cultures. It is controllable and allows the person to travel long distances. While in this state, the runner touches the ground but only barely, and with long leaping bounds, allowing travel at extremely high speeds. In other cases, the levitator doesn’t touch the ground at all, but may fly for distances of up to a mile or more. Otherwise, it is likely closely related to meditative and ecstatic levitation.

    These seven types of levitation have occurred in virtually every culture in the world.

    SOURCE


  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    That's why such extraordinary claims need testing under controlled conditions...
    Controlled? LOL. There is no such thing. The illusion of control, yes perhaps.

    Statistically the people most likely to go through a paranormal experience are those that are not "into" such things. People who really want to see a ghost, UFO or such things rarely do. The way to tell if someone is a charlatan is if they "want" to be a shaman or a healer etc. The "real" healers/shamans never want to be one initially, and they do not strive to be become one. Rather they are recruited by ? [what I call The Divine Mystery]. Kind of goes back to the wisdom of that Douglas Adams quote earlier... so hold on to your hat JDP...

    Also you might have missed it, but I think the issue is "fear" [conscious or not]... usually the root of all bigotry, racism, phobia, ignorance, boxed-in-thinking etc etc... and I think it is the root of the scientific mind as well...

    Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    There is a big difference between "love", a subjective feeling, and "levitating", which should it really happen would be defying the pull of gravity, something that everyone can objectively observe and does not vary from one individual to the next. One can be debated, the other one can't. Either you can defy the pull of gravity through some mysterious "power" or you can't.
    No, because I was using love as an allegory to explain that you cannot prove/disprove someones experience.

    Also I do study science a lot and follow its development weekly... and it would be wise to understand that "gravity" is NOT solved yet by mainstream science... and a scientist that says something is a LAW is a fool and a bad scientist. Real scientists speak about theories and models, because that is all they have until new developments happen. Finally there is no proof that any "law" of anything in the Universe is constant.

    Even the Big Bang is a theory, as well as the THEORY of Evolution... both are actually starting to crumble with new "evidence", and new models made NOT by crackpots... but by established mainstream REAL scientists.

    Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  10. #60
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    theres an argument for consensus reality
    The term "ships not seen", in the context of scientific discovery, is reference to the famous Christopher Columbus story of how, upon arrival to the new world, the native Indians, supposedly, could “not see the ships” in the harbor, even though they were in plain sight, supposedly, because they did not have the proper mental slots or receptors to process or accept such foreign or rather never before seen views—meaning that, often times, scientists and modern thinkers, closed into a certain way of seeing or thinking about things, will often not "see" what is directly in front of them; a term which has a cousin similarity to not seeing the forest amid the trees and or not seeing the trees amid the forest, depending on discussion; and is related to the glass walls phenomenon.
    http://www.eoht.info/page/Ships+not+seen

    empty atoms
    So, the space in atoms isn’t empty. A more accurate thing to say is that the overwhelming majority of the matter in an atom is concentrated in the nucleus, which is tiny compared to the region where the electrons are found. However, even in the nucleus the same “problem” crops up; protons and neutrons are just “the ringing of bells” and aren’t simply particles either. The question “where exactly is this electron/proton/whatever?” isn’t merely difficult to answer, the question genuinely doesn’t have an answer. In quantum physics things tend spread out between a lot of states (in this case those different states include different positions).
    http://www.askamathematician.com/201...-empty-vacuum/
    https://education.jlab.org/qa/how-mu...pty-space.html

    The human brain also emits waves, like when a person focuses her attention or remembers something. This activity fires thousands of neurons simultaneously at the same frequency generating a wave — but at a rate closer to 10 to 100 cycles per second.
    https://engineering.mit.edu/engage/a...h-radio-waves/

    its a good explanation how we create the universe we experience
    We do not accept, nowadays, as it happened in the past, that our perceptive world is just the plain result of an encounter between a ''naive" brain and the physical properties of a stimulus. Actually, perceptions differ, in quality, from those physical characteristics, because the brain extracts an information from the stimulus and interprets it, according to previous similar experiences.
    We experiment electromagnetic waves, not as waves, but as images and colours. We experiment vibrating objects, not as vibrations, but as sounds. We experiment chemical compounds dissolved in air or water, not as chemicals, but as specific smells and tastes. Colours, sounds, smells and tastes are products of our minds, built from sensory experiences.
    They do not exist, as such, outside our brain. Actually, the universe is colourless, inodorous, insipid and silent. Therefore, we can now answer one of the questions of traditional philosophy : Does a sound exist when a tree falls in a forest, if nobody is present to hear it ? No, the fall of the tree only creates vibrations. The sound occurs if vibrations are perceived by a living being.
    Information from the environment or from the body itself, is picked up by the sensory systems and utilized by the brain for perception, regulating corporeal movements and maintaining arousal. A sensory system starts to work when a stimulus, usually from the outside world, is detected by a sensitive neuron, the first sensorial receptor. This receptor converts the physical expression of the stimulus (light, sound, heat, pressure, taste, smell) into action potentials , which transforms it into electric signs.
    From there, the signs are conducted to a nearby area of primary processing, where the initial characteristics of the information are elaborated, according to the nature of the original stimulus : colour, shape, distance, shade, etc. Then, the already modified information is transmitted to zones of secondary processing in the thalamus (if originated by olfactory stimuli, it is processed in the olfactory bulbs and then directly conducted to the medial area of the temporal lobe).
    In the thalamic zones, older data, originated from both the cortex and the limbic system and containing similar experiences, link to the new information, in order to form a message, which is carried to its specific cortical centre. There, the meaning and importance of the new detected stimulus are determined by a conscious process of identification called perception.
    http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n04/o...ercepcao_i.htm

    we dont experience all that exists within the universe, only a picture the brain can build for us
    what else exists in the universe that humans are yet to perceive ?
    empirical proof of a miracle or supernatural event raises questions to how we can explain it
    magick becomes science we are yet to understand, more of the universe we were previously unaware of

    science prefers to have an answer rather than no answer
    so if the shoe fits....?

    “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge”
    - Daniel Boorstin
    Last edited by Kibric; 12-19-2017 at 03:13 AM.

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