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Thread: A Market for Elementals

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    He doesn't.



    He won't.

    He doesn't do "spells" and he doesn't practice ceremonial magic. For shamanic work, it not necessary. You just "phase out", go where you need to go and do what you need to do. After years of training and practice, you can do it on the train or while sitting on the toilet

    "Trading Elementals" is very different from trading real estate, and is essentially a form of "slave trade". Unethical and certainly not recommended. Also a high chance to backfire. Badly.
    I think there is a fundamental difference of worldview with several interesting points. Firstly about what an ‘elemental’ actually is: A; an artificial elemental which is an autonomous extension of the magician so if the magician sent this to assist another it has been created and developed from the magicians energy. B; An actual elemental that can be evoked (conjured) and commanded by the magician to serve him or another. This whole view by several posters here that commanding elementals, or Demons is slavery runs contrary to literally thousands of years of magical practice and tradition in Europe and the Middle East, even in pre-Christian times. Whilst people are entitled to their view the fact that this historical position has not even be briefly touched on shows a lack of knowledge of European occult heritage (whether the traditional view is agreed with or not). The only spiritual being that cannot be bound into servitude or slavery is what is called an Angel. Having evoked to visible and/or physical manifestation all these and ‘enslaved’ goetic demons to serve my purposes, (in fact I think I have a couple left that still have tasks they would need to fulfill to be released from obligation to me the seals for this are in a steel box somewhere I think); I find this ‘human rights’ for elementals and Demons faintly amusing.

    If this group opinion stems from the view that humans are the same as animals and also therefore various spirits it is completely wrong. For example there is experimental and observational evidence that we are different to all other species on this planet so the analogy that we are also the same as various spirits etc is also not valid from that perspective.

    Examples: 1. Humans cause make and put out fire no other species does this - observational evidence. Also electricity and magnetism. 2. Young human children in an experiment when they are given a treat for stacking a block on another will become curious about the blocks if they are given one that doesn’t fit. No other primate does this in the same scenario they just try to stack the two blocks failing, don’t seem to investigate why.

    We humans are different to animals and diverse spirits, unlike them we are made in Gods image and can conjure and command (enslave) some types of non-corporeal entities.

    Edit: Deities also cannot be ‘bound or enslaved’.
    Last edited by Axismundi000; 12-27-2017 at 09:33 AM. Reason: Edited a bit about Deity because they can also appear visibly.

  2. #12
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    My understanding was that elementals were the astral correspondence for life forms in the 3D realm. So if I want the highest medicinal virtue from a sage plant, than I should clairvoyantly request assistance from the plants elemental spirit, otherwise its considered attacking the plant and it don't give all the goodness it could have.

    So then doesn't it depend on the intelligence of the creature? Sure I wouldn't put an orca in a little tank and make it do circus tricks, but I would breed up locusts and mushrooms and eat those little bastards. Or even just plants. Where is the point in which we say, 'this is now cruel'

    I apologize if I've upset anyone, I don't really have much of a knowledge reservoir in this area.

    However, can't I create an elemental? And isn't it with the intention that it work for me? I understand the issues with trading in regards to what Andro means by 'backfire' because of the unpredictable outcomes and the risk of inexperienced people doing dodgy stuff and telling you its good.

    So if controlling elementals is considered wrong, what do we do with them then? Summon them as friendly pets who want to spend time with us? Like a Pokemon? If its like a Pokemon, I'm all for it.

    @Andro, the thing that's always confused me about shamanism (the first religion I ever looked into) was, not so much the 'going' bit the 'doing'. What can one do in these places to help one'sself? Yoga? Pray? I'm lost with what the actual practise in the netherworlds in tails... Obviously not ceremonial magic.. But what?

    Thank you everyone for sharing your views
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    commanding elementals, or Demons is slavery runs contrary to literally thousands of years of magical practice and tradition in Europe and the Middle East. I find this ‘human rights’ for elementals and Demons faintly amusing.
    Historical precedence doesn't make it ethical. It's like saying that human rights for slaves are amusing because slavery has been practiced in Europe and the Middle East.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    We humans are different to animals and diverse spirits, unlike them we are made in Gods image and can conjure and command (enslave) some types of non-corporeal entities.
    How convenient

    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    The only spiritual being that cannot be bound into servitude or slavery is what is called an Angel.
    Again, I am cautioning against the mentality of 'binding into servitude or slavery". This mentality seems to be common among certain ceremonial magicians. Not saying it's impossible, but it is unethical and it does backfire. Maybe not today, maybe not in 20 years, but at some point there will be a price to pay.

    The only possible exception (as I see it) is when there is mutual consent. Some entities may actually get a kick out of being enslaved

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by elixirmixer View Post
    What can one do in these places to help one'sself? Yoga? Pray? I'm lost with what the actual practise in the netherworlds in tails... Obviously not ceremonial magic.. But what?
    You'll see when you get there.

  5. #15
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    I just read your post Axis, yes, the entire idea of ceremonial magic is to summon and control these 'lower' Spirits. Hence why I am also a little confused. I'm not a massive fan of this type of magic anyway, more because of the danger it poses to the magician if he/she behaves ignorantly, however I never considered it from the point of 'rights for elementals'

    Perhaps the difference in definition is in the Elemetaries. Which I believe are slightly different, more sentient, more 'alive', harder and more dangerous to control certainly, I'd be scared to attempt work with them as I know I'd fuck it up and it would go bad...

    Again I see it as, making a magpie fly where you want so you can see where your vorging, compared to you going down to Woolworths and actually EATING a dead chicken. I'd say the crime is in the killing, not in the gentle borrowing.

    Also a reminder, that the reason that ceremonial magic works, is because we are literally given permission from God to have this ability of controlling elementals demons, and if your a fully realized avatar such as Christ than "I could command twelve legions of Angels and they would be delivered" or however it goes.

    "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you"

    "We do what we see the Father doeth"

    EDIT: I believe there is a bit in the bible that says something like "When the demons saw Jesus, they shat themselves, and said 'have mercy on us you Son of God'" and again "people we scared because He had power over demons" ect... Pretty common stuff back then by the looks
    Join me; on a voyage of stupidity, and self discovery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=vccZSHroTG4

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    Quote Originally Posted by elixirmixer View Post
    When the demons saw Jesus, they shat themselves, and said 'have mercy on us you Son of God'" and again "people we scared because He had power over demons" ect... Pretty common stuff back then by the looks.
    There's a difference between deliberate enslavement of another entity and power politics/power economics. If one is perceived as "top dog", other beings may see it in their best interest to defer to such a being

  7. #17
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    Do you makes 'deals' or have 'dealings' with any entities in your shamanic work, or... No entity commanding..?

    I have a lot to learn about this stuff. I'm still pretty oblivious. I'll have to give it a go soon
    Join me; on a voyage of stupidity, and self discovery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=vccZSHroTG4

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by elixirmixer View Post
    Do you makes 'deals' or have 'dealings' with any entities in your shamanic work, or... No entity commanding..?
    No "entity commanding" as such. But some sort of "battle" is sometimes necessary, such as in cases of a nasty astral parasite who won't leave easily. It isn't necessarily a direct fight, except for rare occasions. Often, you have to "trick" the parasite or the foreign entity into leaving. Sometimes it is forceful removal, (NOT "command" or" enslavement") and other times it's just offering the invader a "better deal" (quasi-negotiation) and then subsequently disposing of it. Yes, it is a type of battle strategy, it often isn't "pretty", but (for me) it NEVER involves subjugating/enslaving another entity for my own benefit. You do what it takes to get the job done, and then you let go and move on. The traps & temptations of power are common, and should be avoided.

    Real Power
    does NOT come from beings or entities. Those who believe this (IMO) still have a way to go. Real Power is an entirely different thing and it IS the difficult to access. That's why I believe that most magicians rely on power that is "taken" via subjugation/enslavement/etc - because of the lack of ability to access the real source of Power. IMO.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    Historical precedence doesn't make it ethical. It's like saying that human rights for slaves are amusing because slavery has been practiced in Europe and the Middle East.



    How convenient



    Again, I am cautioning against the mentality of 'binding into servitude or slavery". This mentality seems to be common among certain ceremonial magicians. Not saying it's impossible, but it is unethical and it does backfire. Maybe not today, maybe not in 20 years, but at some point there will be a price to pay.

    The only possible exception (as I see it) is when there is mutual consent. Some entities may actually get a kick out of being enslaved
    I expected character assassination but not so clumsy. It is not like human slavery which is immoral because spirits, Demons and Angels are not like humans as I clearly identify in my post. To imply I am effectively advocating human slavery because I bind and control (sometimes effectively enslave) Demons is the essence of calumniation. As for the rest of your moralising guff I care not.

  10. #20
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    Don't do to others what you wouldn't like to be done to yourself. It is a golden law which should be followed, and you will be fine in occult world.

    It is not out of realm of impossibility to be enslaved just like those Elementals in "afterlife". It might be as a consequence of the game, in which those beings decided to play with you, because honestly, 100 years is extremely small amount of time, Elementals can wait and serve you (or to whom you sell them), and then get you enslaved for millenias as an act of repercussion.

    You also get despise from Higher Beings for doing things like that. I don't think that 100-200 USD you get for such acts in extremely short life of human (100 years is far beyond infinitely less than completely nothing) is worth being thrown into the Lower Worlds for, possibly, millions of years, which is another possible outcome for acting as totally unworthy of better Worlds.

    Frauds and quacks do a good work by spreading charlatanic practices, so that unaware people wouldn't harm others and themselves with their wishes. Truly, it is better being deluded, than realize that you just traded millions of years of existing in totally unfriendly, hideous environments with frightening ways of living in there for some pathetic 100-200 USD. I don't think that even million of dollars is good enough price for that.

    Thankfully, practices which can be found in most of (but not all, there are very rare exceptions) modern books are fruitless. Including Bardon's books.

    I am not saying that selling Elementals is bad - "good" and "bad" aren't exactly absolute terms. After all, Hell-like Worlds also need to be filled. Just need to be aware of nasty repercussions in case of getting success with such goals on this Earth.

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