Click HERE if you want to join Alchemy Forums!

Patrons of the Sacred Art

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11

Thread: Can plants be used to make "the solvent?"

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    426

    Can plants be used to make "the solvent?"

    I haven't done any further testing yet, but I did get one blackened mass from a simple reflux setup. I'm sure my next experiments with leafy greens when spring arrives will tell me more about whether this is a dead end or not, but I'm beginning to suspect there is some very active enzyme hiding in plant material that if properly extracted might be actionable on things outside of the plant kingdom. This isn't from reading, it's from doing, and there are a couple obvious texts on the cirulatum that I will need to revisit.

    If the solvent was prepared and extracted, but you didn't have the prima materia, what kind of effects do you believe would be indicators? Perhaps suspend a certain metal inside and see if it gets eaten? Do you think the solvent can dissolve gold by itself, or that it would need this capability? Is that the test? Try it against a fiddling amount of gold to see if it will dissolve it?

    Where would I look for multiplying it. Is it as simple as adding some more water and refluxing or distilling?

    Just passing curiosities. Anyone is welcome to chime in with an opinion, even if it goes against the grain.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,561
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon's Tail View Post
    I haven't done any further testing yet, but I did get one blackened mass from a simple reflux setup. I'm sure my next experiments with leafy greens when spring arrives will tell me more about whether this is a dead end or not, but I'm beginning to suspect there is some very active enzyme hiding in plant material that if properly extracted might be actionable on things outside of the plant kingdom. This isn't from reading, it's from doing, and there are a couple obvious texts on the cirulatum that I will need to revisit.

    If the solvent was prepared and extracted, but you didn't have the prima materia, what kind of effects do you believe would be indicators? Perhaps suspend a certain metal inside and see if it gets eaten? Do you think the solvent can dissolve gold by itself, or that it would need this capability? Is that the test? Try it against a fiddling amount of gold to see if it will dissolve it?

    Where would I look for multiplying it. Is it as simple as adding some more water and refluxing or distilling?

    Just passing curiosities. Anyone is welcome to chime in with an opinion, even if it goes against the grain.
    If by "the solvent" you mean the secret solvent of alchemy, then the answer is very difficult to resolve. Some authors keep insisting on the "mineral" and/or "metallic" nature of the secret solvent, while others openly acknowledge that non-metallic/mineral substances are used in its preparation. The "adept" who called himself "Theodorus Mundanus" in his letter to Edmund Dickinson says that the secret solvent can be made even with common spirit of wine, BUT provided that you unite to it a certain other "vegetable nature which bears the character of a trefoyle".

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    426
    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    If by "the solvent" you mean the secret solvent of alchemy, then the answer is very difficult to resolve. Some authors keep insisting on the "mineral" and/or "metallic" nature of the secret solvent, while others openly acknowledge that non-metallic/mineral substances are used in its preparation. The "adept" who called himself "Theodorus Mundanus" in his letter to Edmund Dickinson says that the secret solvent can be made even with common spirit of wine, BUT provided that you unite to it a certain other "vegetable nature which bears the character of a trefoyle".
    Hmm, sounds similar to Paracelsus with his wine/alkali mix-mash. The word "character" is interesting in its own right. And yes, I was referring to the secret solvent.

    When they insist on the metallic nature, I wonder if they are referring to an actual metal. I've seen plenty of things appear in my flask that have a decidedly metallic (shiny/hard) nature to them. The first skin that I pull off my "water tincture" looks almost like the film from old tapes, for instance. And other little peculiarities. In the universe of Alchemy "metallic nature" could refer to just about anything, or they might be simply referring to Hg. Such a fickle lot we are.

    Same with a "vegetable nature" which might not suggest a substance coming from a vegetable at all, since the spirit of wine already comes from the vegetable kingdom.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,561
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon's Tail View Post
    Hmm, sounds similar to Paracelsus with his wine/alkali mix-mash. The word "character" is interesting in its own right. And yes, I was referring to the secret solvent.

    When they insist on the metallic nature, I wonder if they are referring to an actual metal. I've seen plenty of things appear in my flask that have a decidedly metallic (shiny/hard) nature to them. The first skin that I pull off my "water tincture" looks almost like the film from old tapes, for instance. And other little peculiarities. In the universe of Alchemy "metallic nature" could refer to just about anything, or they might be simply referring to Hg. Such a fickle lot we are.

    Same with a "vegetable nature" which might not suggest a substance coming from a vegetable at all, since the spirit of wine already comes from the vegetable kingdom.
    That "Mundanus" indeed means something coming from a vegetable source is plainly seen by the fact that he says "another vegetable nature" (i.e. besides the common spirit of wine. Keep in mind that "Mundanus" is here talking about an alternative method in which common spirit of wine can also be used in the operations, but this is not the method that he himself uses, though.) Also, if you read the descriptions he makes of the preparation of the secret solvent from the reactions & interactions between at least 3 substances (which he hides under the names of "mercury", "sulphur" and a "distilled water"), you can't avoid concluding that more than minerals/metals are at play in these operations he describes. Anyone who has a lot of empirical experience with mineral/metallic substances knows that they usually do NOT give liquid products by interactions/reactions between themselves, and when they do they do not display the same things that "Mundanus" describes. So obviously there is more at play here than 100% mineral/metallic substances.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    283
    Maybe this discussion can be helpful?
    Circulatum Minus

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    US. Missouri.
    Posts
    164
    Fat.
    If I am extracting.
    Fat is better than alcohole.
    Although I believe you wash fat with alcohole in order to extract the substances from fat.
    Fats were used for a long time to make aromatic products because the absorbe scents.
    So alcohole, fat, and water (which is present in a lower proof alcohole).
    Formerly known as Avaar186.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    426
    Quote Originally Posted by Avatar View Post
    Fat.
    If I am extracting.
    Fat is better than alcohole.
    Although I believe you wash fat with alcohole in order to extract the substances from fat.
    Fats were used for a long time to make aromatic products because the absorbe scents.
    So alcohole, fat, and water (which is present in a lower proof alcohole).
    Nice idea. I've done some infusions with different oils before (mineral and olive oil). Never thought about washing them with alcohol. I know various fats can also act as a surfactant in super fluids to form complexes with metals. Interesting indeed. I haven't been doing much lately. My current shelf extract experiment is using a simple syrup to extract some rosemary, which is a slow process, but it's making an extract.

    I made the syrup by slowly and carefully dissolving a good amount of sugar in as little water as possible, with a pinch of tartar for good measure to help bust up the sucrose molecules a lil bit. Fats should be easy to break up by the same types of processes (heat and/or catalyst) for "solids" like bacon fat, which will make infusion easier.

    Thanks, something for me to kick around philosophically as I go about my day.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    309
    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    If by "the solvent" you mean the secret solvent of alchemy, then the answer is very difficult to resolve. Some authors keep insisting on the "mineral" and/or "metallic" nature of the secret solvent, while others openly acknowledge that non-metallic/mineral substances are used in its preparation. The "adept" who called himself "Theodorus Mundanus" in his letter to Edmund Dickinson says that the secret solvent can be made even with common spirit of wine, BUT provided that you unite to it a certain other "vegetable nature which bears the character of a trefoyle".
    ................................................
    trefoyle

    perhaps because the trefoyle as also says the weidenlfeld in his manuscripts and also see his prodromus and how he also understands the chain of humerus and also the dikinson etc is that the philosophical solvent is composed of 3 intersected elements of plant animal and mineral

    as weidenfeld would say the oleosun plant and or animal must be united to acidum and to an aridum and from it union with an artifice and elaboration we obtain a water that it will compose the solvent see about it its prodronus
    https://www.scribd.com/document/3416...ibri-Secundi-1

    my best regard alfr

    -----------------------------------------------------
    trefoyle

    forse perche il trefoyle come dice anche il weidenlfeld nei suo manoscritti e anche vedi suo prodromus e come fa capire anche la catena d'omero e anche il dikinson etc è che il solvente filosofale è composto da 3 elementi intersecati vegetale animale e minerale

    come direbbe weidenfeld l'oleosun pianta e o animale va unito ad acidum e a un aridum e da essa unione con un artifici ed elaborazione si ottiene un acqua che essa comporrà il solvente see about it il suo prodronus
    https://www.scribd.com/document/3416...ibri-Secundi-1

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    US. Missouri.
    Posts
    164
    Alchemy honestly feels like a method of extracting substances without much chemical reaction.
    If you viewed it with an archaic sight.
    It seems like change without chemical reaction.
    A fat or alcohole extracting a substance being similar in observation.
    Which is similar to if I run my finger on a metal then my hands become metallic smelling. Although this is because of bacteria etc. The observation is that the metal rubbed off on me.
    Hell.
    Has anyone ever just boiled pure gold an then had themselves a taste of said water?
    Observationally we boil say an onion. The water takes on an onion smell. We assume the onion is in the water.
    We may understand that fact now.
    BUT old science is built from observation.
    A water who's smell changes obviously changes in nature. Even though it may not contain the bulk of the substance.
    Even as an onion remains even though you have onion water.
    Follow the smell.
    That's the magic of fat. It absorbes the smells.
    Hm..can a fat absorbe a metallic smell from a metal?
    OooOoo.
    Of course always be careful. Smells are potentially as poisonous as anything else.
    Formerly known as Avaar186.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    US. Missouri.
    Posts
    164
    Of course, everything is a reaction. What I meant was observable obvious reaction. Violent chemical reaction.
    Like oxidization and combustion.
    Formerly known as Avaar186.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts