DMT is the Stone

[Awani]

Some people go as far as take their own lives rather than become dependent (for reasons such as old age, disease, poverty/bankruptcy, etc...)

Independence is the power to ask for help.

What you describe sounds more like an egomaniac to me... but sure, dosage is everything... so too much independence could lead to suicide, I guess... I personally would never go down that route, and I always say that if I die and the report says suicide, then it is 110 % certain I have been murdered.

[Andro]

If I die and the report says suicide, then it is 110 % certain I have been murdered.

You wrote in the past that in case you are captured/imprisoned (or worse), you reserve the right to take your own life. So maybe it's not 110%?

[Awani]

You wrote in the past that in case you are captured/imprisoned (or worse), you reserve the right to take your own life. So maybe it's not 110%?

I’ve changed my mind.

[Warmheart]

Could do everyone some good to read "The Book of Job" every now and then.
We're independent until some shit happens happens and then we become dependent.
Some people go as far as take their own lives rather than become dependent (for reasons such as old age, disease, poverty/bankruptcy, etc...)

Indeed.

That's also what make real Philsopsher's Stone, non-Duality and other similar things different from fake ones. Fake ones always make you more dependent even if you don't realize it at first (e.g. dependency from chemicals which were used to get visions) and they are rather destructive, while real ones make you more independent in this world.

I wasn't as much negative (as Awani said) rather than tried to point that when your life is about to get totally ruined you will realize that most of the modern "spiritual" approaches are just bullshit and only good as some exotic hobby for bored aristocracy. When you need to solve such problems as extreme hunger, thirst or some disastrous disease, when you are in real danger of death, you need real solution. And there are real things which can help in such situations, and that's why you'll barely see any rich person showing some special knowledge and/or abilities (that's if they didn't have specific agreements with Evil Spirits, which is different and special case), it is because they never had to go through real problems and so they can't see things for what they are. While there are many hermits with immense power, whose life was always about strife until they found the way.

E. g., there was a hermit, outcast, who used a dog to eat. He was controlling that dog so it could find and eat food somewhere, while sharing vital energy (received from consumption of this food) with that man.

There are people who in states of non-Duality can see things in any place of the Earth and they can see things which are yet to come.

So speaking about this Stone, does it allow to fight troublesome life circumstances, does it actually allow to see things in non-Dual state, or it is merely an illusion? Surely it can provide some exotic feelings, everything "extra-ordinary" does so, but is there anything more to it? And I don't mean for "next life" (I never saw anyone continuing what they started from previous life), I mean for this one. And I don't mean some subjective results (e.g., now I know how world functions), I mean real results (e.g., now I know how world functions, so I can do this and this to solve such and such problem).

It reminds me one tale about mysterious mountain. That mountain was a place of pilgrimage, a lot of saints were visiting that mountain because of its glory and all of them fell down from it to their death. Then there came a wise man, climbed that mountain and saw a brilliant chariot coming to him with magnificent Divine person who looked at him and said: "Come to me, you deserve to enter the Divine worlds, come to my chariot." Wise man wanted to enter his chariot but then hesitated and said: "No, I am not worthy." Suddenly vision dissipated and he saw that he was on the very edge of the mountain and he was about to fall down.

And I ask people on this forum to understand me right, I am not criticizing them and their ways, perhaps I am wrong and the way which is discussed in this thread allows them to see all things of past, present and future and allows them to get a cure for most problems in this world.

[Awani]

...tried to point that when your life is about to get totally ruined you will realize that most of the modern "spiritual" approaches are just bullshit and only good as some exotic hobby for bored aristocracy...

This statement is bullshit in my opinion. Of course people need to be able to make fire and fend for themselves, I don't assume we need to discuss that.

"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water." - Zen

However you do not seem to place any value on the human spirit. When it concerns disaster, danger of death, starvation etc... the person that survives is the one with the right attitude. I hope you agree that spending time in a Nazi camp, as a Jew, would be considered a "very bad thing". Have a look at Viktor E. Frankl's account from his book Man's Search for Meaning... to save time I'll just paste from Wiki.

Frankl concludes that... life never ceases to have meaning, even in suffering and death... for everyone in a dire condition there is someone looking down, a friend, family member, or even God, who would expect not to be disappointed. Frankl concludes from his experience that a prisoner's psychological reactions are not solely the result of the conditions of his life, but also from the freedom of choice he always has even in severe suffering. The inner hold a prisoner has on his spiritual self relies on having a hope in the future, and that once a prisoner loses that hope, he is doomed.

Frankl also concludes that there are only two races of men, decent men and indecent. No society is free of either of them, and thus there were "decent" Nazi guards and "indecent" prisoners, most notably the kapo who would torture and abuse their fellow prisoners for personal gain.

One of Frankl's main claims in the book is that a positive attitude was essential to surviving the camps. Consequently, he implied that those who died had given up. However, historians have concluded that there was little connection between attitude and survival.

Don't bother taking side with the "historians" in above quote. I have little interest in "views" not based on "direct experience"...

So speaking about this Stone, does it allow to fight troublesome life circumstances, does it actually allow to see things in non-Dual state, or it is merely an illusion?

Yes, because attitude is EVERYTHING. You are going to argue, well if you are hungry no attitude is going to make you feel less hungry. That is true, but the right attitude might help you solve the problem and not be a whiny bitch.

...but is there anything more to it? I mean for this one. And I don't mean some subjective results (e.g., now I know how world functions), I mean real results (e.g., now I know how world functions, so I can do this and this to solve such and such problem).

YES. That is the whole reason I have been working with sacred plants for soon ten years. It heals. Who doesn't not want to be healed? Physically and emotionally. Every significant choice I've made in the past 10 years have been done in conversation with these Plant Teachers.



@Andro: Perhaps the three stages Frankl describes regarding liberation will also occur even on the macrocosm version of liberation:

...the psychological reaction of the inmates to their liberation,... [is] separated into three stages. The first is depersonalization - a period of readjustment, in which a prisoner gradually returns to the world. Initially, the liberated prisoners are so numb that they are unable to understand what freedom means, or to emotionally respond to it. Part of them believes that it is an illusion or a dream that will be taken away from them. In their first foray outside their former prison, the prisoners realized that they could not comprehend pleasure. Flowers and the reality of the freedom they had dreamed about for years were all surreal, unable to be grasped in their depersonalization.

As for "The Book of Job" not sure how it is relevant? Trust in God = reward.

I was looking into Job, in case there was something I had forgotten... but nothing new came to mind... so not sure what you mean unless you had theodicy in mind. The whole point of Job is to show faith in God leads to reward, so Job is a bad example to use (which atheists often do, probably because they are not familiar with the original text).

Funnily I was - as I always do - cross-referencing the Quran and I noticed their spelling of Job is the same as a friend I have from Iraq. This guy is the most" accident prone" and "general life problem prone" individual I have ever met. So fucking funny his name is Job. LOL. Not sure I should point this out to him...

[Warmheart]

However you do not seem to place any value on the human spirit. When it concerns disaster, danger of death, starvation etc... the person that survives is the one with the right attitude. I hope you agree that spending time in a Nazi camp, as a Jew, would be considered a "very bad thing". Have a look at Viktor E. Frankl's account from his book Man's Search for Meaning... to save time I'll just paste from Wiki.

This is a classic example of what Taleb names as Survivorship Bias. How many of those Jews had positive attitude but still died?

I tried to follow similar attitude in past, but it doesn't work as written in modern psychology books. So you know, I have a very horrific disease which keeps blooming. And I am still living thanks to the real stuff I am finding, I don't have luxury of finding truth in smoke, some vulgar psychology or modern science, according to which I should be long dead by now.

When I was born, I had no father, had no mother, had no family. I had nothing. I knew extreme hunger and thirst, I went through a couple attempts of suicide (one of which granted me this disease). Do you know how it feels when you struggle for your whole life and you see that you won't find even some small banal happiness because disease and death won't give you such time? Do you know how it feels when you are constantly being fed with crap about "inherent immortality" by people who are yet to feel REAL touch of death? Do you know how "motivating" it is to calculate your chances to be reborn as some child in Central Africa, if to assume that this "wonderful" reincarnation system actually works as people think?

Yet again, personally I have nothing against smoking, psychological sessions and such. But let's not label them as P.S. or non-Duality. I know it is hard to believe, but in this age there are still people who experienced the glimpse of both and they are totally opposite to what is being discussed here. I am saying this so that honest seekers of truth wouldn't fall victims to all this deception and were seeking for real stuff.

You might think I am some rude, negative person, but in fact I am quite gentle and peaceful, and these words are caused rather by tears of daily struggle than by anger.

YES. That is the whole reason I have been working with sacred plants for soon ten years. It heals. Who doesn't not want to be healed? Physically and emotionally. Every significant choice I've made in the past 10 years have been done in conversation with these Plant Teachers.

Indeed, plants have big healing powers. That's if you don't speak about them in the aspect of this thread: by smoking them or their chemical derivatives.

[Awani]

...by smoking them or their chemical derivatives...

DMT is natural (everything is really), and you have it inside you... the DMT is extracted from Acacia (or other plant material)... so there is not less "plant" with smoking DMT than drinking ayahuasca, if you want to split hairs.

...had positive attitude but still died? I tried to follow similar attitude in past, but it doesn't work as written in modern psychology books..

What you seem to think "of" when I talk about attitude is not what I am talking about. I don't need to drink ayahuasca to get a "positive attitude"... that would be daft. It is far more than that... attitude is just the word I use. It is way more powerful. Allegorically it can be like being straight, smoking DMT and then you are 110 % gay. Complete flip. Hmm... not even that is a good metaphor.

You know what... it cannot be explained. Either it is experienced or it is not. That's all I can say.

But don't be fooled. Like in alchemy it is called the Great Work... drinking ayahuasca is called Working with Ayahuasca. You get what you deserve, and you have to put the work in. It is not like you are going to drink, and then become some enlightened guru. That's ridiculous. It's a process. All of it is. A long haul initiation. It cannot be explained. I am not saying that to seem mystical... it's because I cannot explain it. Like Seth-Ra... I know reading his reports about his experiences with DMT that they are a joke compared to what he went through... forget the stuff he decided to not include... I have written lengthy reports on my own experiences here in the forum. Those reports are only a superficial version of "what really went down". This is a public forum... somethings I haven't even told my wife.

So you know, I have a very horrific disease which keeps blooming. And I am still living thanks to the real stuff I am finding, I don't have luxury of finding truth in smoke, some vulgar psychology or modern science, according to which I should be long dead by now.

Psychedelics are a very good medicine to help the terminally ill, and help with the "dying process". Also in the Amazon there are plants that cure cancer and HIV and many other disease. It is a complete pharmacy down there.

Do you know how it feels when you struggle for your whole life and you see that you won't find even some small banal happiness because disease and death won't give you such time?

Everyone has suffered, and no one can compare person A's suffering to person B. It is all relative. Suffering is suffering, and I have had my fair share as well. It has got nothing to do with what we are talking about really... in my view.

Do you know how it feels when you are constantly being fed with crap about "inherent immortality" by people who are yet to feel REAL touch of death?

Projection. You don't know anything about anyone here (unless you are close friends with some in private). Don't assume.

Do you know how "motivating" it is to calculate your chances to be reborn as some child in Central Africa, if to assume that this "wonderful" reincarnation system actually works as people think?

Funny you should say. Think I already mentioned it, but I once had a very important ceremony down in the Amazon where I for several hours was physically and emotionally transported into the "life" and "body" of a child starving to death in South Sudan (or some such place). It was a totally horrible experience, and it has done nothing but given me an increase in compassion, love and gratitude. And that is why reincarnation makes sense. Because coming out of that experience I wrote in my diary that "it would probably be a good idea to life a whole life like that... you would gain way more on the grand scheme of things than being some wealthy spoilt brat in a white suburb... for sure..."

When a person reincarnate you do not start from zero. I can remember when I was a child, that I made a decision to do "different" this time. In my experience the way you paint things is not the way they are painted... but then I don't live in your reality and you don't live in mine. Nothing to do about that.

But let's not label them as P.S. or non-Duality.

P.S., sure we can agree that that is up for debate... even if it is semantics (because that's all it is). But non-Duality, lol... you can't say that... you cannot say what someone else has experienced...

...fall victims to all this deception and were seeking for real stuff...

There is noting more real than this stuff I speak about. Nothing. And shamanism + plant medicines have been used for thousands and thousands of years... probably since the Dawn of Man. Even allegorically in the Garden of Eden. LOL.

We are not discussing practical alchemy here. This is the Shamanism Sub-forum... if you want to discuss "how" to make the Stone that makes gold then go right ahead in the Practical Alchemy Sub-forum.

If you are talking about healing, the healing of mind, body and spirit... then you are in the right place... there is nothing I would put my money on more than Shamanism. If I ever get a "bad" disease I'll be on the next plane down to the Amazon. For sure.

Although Shamanism hasn't really been that big on "living forever", because there is no need... since death is an illusion anyway... no different than waking up in the morning. When an adult has a nightmare they wake up sweating, and then shrug it off as a bad dream and get up and go to work.. when a small child has a nightmare they wake up screaming, crying and refuse to go back to sleep... why? Because they take the dream seriously.

----------------------------------------------------

Look, you are probably in the mental state you need to be in to further the game... and I am in the state I need to be in...

Rumi never fails... I'll end my ramblings with some real wisdom (in my opinion):

"Even if you lose yourself in wrath for a hundred thousand years, at the end you will discover, it is me [the Divine Mystery], who is the culmination of your dreams."

[Warmheart]

Psychedelics are a very good medicine to help the terminally ill. Also in the Amazon there are plants that cure cancer and HIV and many other disease. It is a complete pharmacy down there.

I don't say that various plants and minerals don't have any good qualities. No, each of them has their own Spirit and their own qualities. I am simply stating that some methods of use and results from particular plants are quite overestimated.

Everyone has suffered, and no one can compare person A's suffering to person B.

I wouldn't say so. Story in Book of Job is very interesting on many levels. There is always someone who has less sufferings, someone who has more. Some say that suffering is showing Divine favor, those who don't suffer simply means that Gods gave up on them. I think there is some truth in these words.

Projection. You don't know anything about anyone here (unless you are close friends with some in private). Don't assume.

I am not talking only about people here. There are a lot of such people around me outside of this forum. Actually, it became very popular nowadays to use huge rose glasses with everything that concerns death. Perhaps to put people's attention away from what actually is THE most important thing to deal with in this world.

Funny you should say. Think I already mentioned it, but I once had a very important ceremony down in the Amazon where I for several hours was physically and emotionally transported into the "life" and "body" of a child starving to death in South Sudan (or some such place). It was a totally horrible experience, and it has done nothing but given me an increase in compassion, love and gratitude.

There are some interesting classic tales about Genies in the lamp. Once bound there, they thought to give a lot of power and money to whoever will free them. As centuries were passing, genies were thinking that they will simply say "thanks" and that's it. After more centuries passed, genies were thinking about how they will make their savor die the most horrible death.

So and here. Love, compassion and gratitude are there while you don't experience big suffering yourself on daily basis. In worst case you yourself become the source of problems for others, you become criminal or malefic. In rare good case you realize that there should be something more to this world, and you start digging in the very core of all things, discarding fluff on the surface.

Suffering of the other is always an abstract concept, even if it causes you to feel compassion, even if you try to live it for a day. You need to live it for whole life to know what does it mean to have broken dreams, to be constantly denied something which most of the world gets for free. That's when you live in nightmare and want to awake but you can't. That's when you see fear and disgust masked by pity in the eyes of the others. That's when you can't use your teachings and eat them, your body will require real food, real water, real warm. That's when you will feel touch of death, will you be calming yourself that it is just illusion?

Yet again, it is always abstract when it doesn't happening with you and right now.

We are not discussing practical alchemy here. This is the Shamanism Sub-forum... if you want to discuss "how" to make the Stone that makes gold then go right ahead in the Practical Alchemy Sub-forum.

Yes, you are right, I came here because of equations people made of DMT with P.S. and non-Duality, because I think it is not fair to make such direct equations.

Although Shamanism hasn't really been that big on "living forever", because there is no need... since death is an illusion anyway... no different than waking up in the morning. When an adult has a nightmare they wake up sweating, and then shrug it off as a bad dream and get up and go to work.. when a small child has a nightmare they wake up screaming, crying and refuse to go back to sleep... why? Because they take the dream seriously.

It depends on how deep you dig it. There are ancient lines of Shamanic Tradition which come from the source which I can't name on public. Some of those are still left in Syberia, but most of what can be openly found is in the stage of degradation. There is a big focus in those lines on prolonging one's existence through various ways and means. As you probably realize this is a very highly sought power, so it it is hidden among vast abundance of what represents, if to put it gently, exoteric part of Shamanic Tradition.

If you dig it deep enough, you will see that all old Traditions have branches (if not fully dedicated themselves), which deal exclusively with prolongation of life by various means (by prolongation I mean nigh immortality). That also includes Shamanic Tradition.

"This world is illusion, death is illusion" is a very modern New Age nonsense and misunderstanding of old teachings. Only those who achieved powers above those of gods can say that this world is illusion (because even gods are subject to this "illusion"), only they can be right in some sense of this word. But I highly doubt that there are such people on this forum who reached such state.

[Awani]

I am simply stating that some methods of use and results from particular plants are quite overestimated.

My experience says otherwise.

Suffering of the other is always an abstract concept, even if it causes you to feel compassion, even if you try to live it for a day. You need to live it for whole life to know what does it mean to have broken dreams, to be constantly denied something which most of the world gets for free. That's when you live in nightmare and want to awake but you can't. That's when you see fear and disgust masked by pity in the eyes of the others. That's when you can't use your teachings and eat them, your body will require real food, real water, real warm. That's when you will feel touch of death, will you be calming yourself that it is just illusion?

It's so funny... you really don't get it... you cannot say what I can use MY teachings for... you don't know anything about them, nor will you ever... they are for me, and me alone... they would not work for you at this point in the game (nor anyone else)...

...because I think it is not fair to make such direct equations.

Well it is not illegal to think anything.

It depends on how deep you dig it. There are ancient lines of Shamanic Tradition which come from the source which I can't name on public. Some of those are still left in Syberia, but most of what can be openly found is in the stage of degradation.

I am well aware of the Siberian and Arctic Circle shamanism and the indigenous peoples of the region. Not only am I somewhat married into that "group", but I also work and are friends with - and visit - those communities... after all I live there.

"This world is illusion, death is illusion" is a very modern New Age nonsense and misunderstanding of old teachings. Only those who achieved powers above those of gods can say that this world is illusion (because even gods are subject to this "illusion"), only they can be right in some sense of this word. But I highly doubt that there are such people on this forum who reached such state.

This is simply not true. Your tactic of calling anything you disagree with "new age nonsense" reminds me of JDP calling anything he disagrees with "then jump of a cliff". LOL.

It is true that "illusion" is not a word they would use... they probably use "thought" or "dream"... same concept. But it is ignorant to think that indigenous cultures around the world don't have a cosmology that implies that this world is a temporary realm sprung from a dream or a thought of the Divine Mystery (or whatever they call it). I am not making it up, nor have I read it in a New Age book. I get my indigenous knowledge from indigenous people. And if that is not possible I study anthropology. You don't have to have a power greater than gods to say this world is an illusion. I don't have that power and I've said it multiple times.

May I inquire what experiences you have had with psychedelics? And if so, what kind and in what set and setting did you do it?

[Awani]

People are daily blinded by illusions and their own presumptions of reality.

I missed this post... also moved most of the posts here from your DMT report... the debate regarding DMT being the stone or not should not clutter your report. IMO.

Always good to quote my own slogan (often not understood I think): Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

It means that:

Reality is an illusion.
But reality is also real.
Reality should not be experienced as only an illusion.
Nor should it be experienced as only real.
To do so would be delusional.

Don’t let the illusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion, could be another way to say it... but it has a different meaning.

Reality is so powerful that it can be difficult to accept the reality of the illusion, that's why I prefer to say don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

Fuck. My head alway spins on that one.

Don't let the delusion of being awake confuse you regarding the lucidity of the dream. = easier way to think about it*



* I'm writing to understand myself here... lol... jeez...