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Thread: What about transmuting other metals?

  1. #1
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    What about transmuting other metals?

    So. I just melted some lead to do a little test. Absolute failure, but I don't think my little stone is ready, it seems to still have some bound water that made it sputter and pop (not that I was expecting anything in particular, but it has well exceeded my expectations in every arena already for such a humble concoction).

    But I got to thinking, the melting point of Zinc is only 420c, which is almost 100 higher than lead, and tin is around 230c, almost 100 lower. The alchemists talk about elevation of base metals pretty generally, but when it comes to transmutation, we seem to focus on mercury and lead.

    I had to go digging around everywhere to find some fishing weights to test with, but I have tin and aluminum laying about everywhere. I realize alchemists probably didn't work with aluminum, but it raises the question. I also have a ton of modern pennies that are primarily copper-plated zinc. If the stone transmutes lead and mercury into silver and gold (depending on which writing you refer to) I wonder what we might expect from other metals. Even antimony.

    Zinc to copper?
    Tin to quicksilver?

    Food for thought mainly, but if anyone has any references or suspicions, I would love to hear them. How about Antimony to Platinum???

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon's Tail View Post
    So. I just melted some lead to do a little test. Absolute failure, but I don't think my little stone is ready, it seems to still have some bound water that made it sputter and pop (not that I was expecting anything in particular, but it has well exceeded my expectations in every arena already for such a humble concoction).

    But I got to thinking, the melting point of Zinc is only 420c, which is almost 100 higher than lead, and tin is around 230c, almost 100 lower. The alchemists talk about elevation of base metals pretty generally, but when it comes to transmutation, we seem to focus on mercury and lead.

    I had to go digging around everywhere to find some fishing weights to test with, but I have tin and aluminum laying about everywhere. I realize alchemists probably didn't work with aluminum, but it raises the question. I also have a ton of modern pennies that are primarily copper-plated zinc. If the stone transmutes lead and mercury into silver and gold (depending on which writing you refer to) I wonder what we might expect from other metals. Even antimony.

    Zinc to copper?
    Tin to quicksilver?

    Food for thought mainly, but if anyone has any references or suspicions, I would love to hear them. How about Antimony to Platinum???
    One thing are theories, speculations & conjectures, and a very different one are empirical facts. The alchemists generally denied all transmutations except those made by the Stone (some of them accepted that other "tinctures" also work, but they are related to the Stone in that the secret solvent of the alchemists is also involved in their preparation, while a smaller number of them also accepted other transmutations that have nothing to do with the secret solvent.) The chymists, on the other hand, were well aware that some metals can be turned into silver or gold through methods that do not involve the secret solvent of the alchemists. But empirical experience will show you that such methods have their limitations. I am not just talking about the much inferior quantitative results as compared to those of alchemy, but also regarding what metals can actually give positive results. For example, I have yet to see even one successful gold-making chymical process that does not involve silver in one form or another. All the successful ones (re)discovered so far use silver. This empirical fact, coupled with that metal's relative unreactivity, led to the practically universally accepted conclusion (among alchemists & chymists, not among physicists & ordinary chemists and their atomic speculations/theories about matter) that silver is "the closest" metal to gold. As for silver-making, more metals seem susceptible to give positive results. Lead, tin, copper, iron and bismuth so far have shown that they can be positively employed in some silver-making chymical processes (other base metals remain to undergo more investigation.) I have yet to see a real transmutation of any base metal into another one, though. It seems like transmutation is a one way street: from "baser" to "nobler" metals. It doesn't seem to work from "base" to "base" metal, and most certainly not from "nobler" to "baser" metal.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    One thing are theories, speculations & conjectures, and a very different one are empirical facts. The alchemists generally denied all transmutations except those made by the Stone (some of them accepted that other "tinctures" also work, but they are related to the Stone in that the secret solvent of the alchemists is also involved in their preparation, while a smaller number of them also accepted other transmutations that have nothing to do with the secret solvent.) The chymists, on the other hand, were well aware that some metals can be turned into silver or gold through methods that do not involve the secret solvent of the alchemists. But empirical experience will show you that such methods have their limitations. I am not just talking about the much inferior quantitative results as compared to those of alchemy, but also regarding what metals can actually give positive results. For example, I have yet to see even one successful gold-making chymical process that does not involve silver in one form or another. All the successful ones (re)discovered so far use silver. This empirical fact, coupled with that metal's relative unreactivity, led to the practically universally accepted conclusion (among alchemists & chymists, not among physicists & ordinary chemists and their atomic speculations/theories about matter) that silver is "the closest" metal to gold. As for silver-making, more metals seem susceptible to give positive results. Lead, tin, copper, iron and bismuth so far have shown that they can be positively employed in some silver-making chymical processes (other base metals remain to undergo more investigation.) I have yet to see a real transmutation of any base metal into another one, though. It seems like transmutation is a one way street: from "baser" to "nobler" metals. It doesn't seem to work from "base" to "base" metal, and most certainly not from "nobler" to "baser" metal.
    This reminds me of the operations in Hermetic Treatise. I did some experimenting following it many years ago. The work with tin is pretty interesting:

    Chap. I.

    Of Tin, and how it may be converted into a more excellent Metal

    Tinne doth counterfeit and resemble Silver; and there is great amity and agreement betwixt these two Mettals in respect to their colour. The Nature and the colour of Tinne is such, that it will whiten all other Mettals; but it makes them brickle and easie to be knapt in sunder: onely Lead is free from this power of Tinne: but he that can skillfully make a meddly of this Mettal with others, may thereby attain to many pretty secrecies. Wherefore, we will endeavor to counterfeit Silver as near as we can: A matter which may be easily effected, if we can tell how to abolish and utterly destroy those imperfections which are found in Tinne, whereby it is to be discerned from Silver. The imperfections are these: First, it is want to make a creaking noise, and crasheth more then Silver doth: Secondly, it doth not ring to pleasantly as Silver, but hath a duller sound: Thirdly, it is of a more pale and wane color: And lastly, it is more soft and tender; for if it be put into the fire, it is not first red hot before it be melted, as Silver will be; but it clings fast to the fire, and is soon overcome and molten by the heat thereof. These are the qualities that are observed to be in Tinne; not the essential properties of the Nature thereof, but onely accidental qualities, and therefore they may be more easily expelled out of their subject. Let us see therefore how we may rid away these extsinsecal accidents: and first,

    How to remedy the softness of Tin; and the creaking noise that it makes.

    You must first beat it into small powder, as you shall hereafter be instructed in the manner how to do it; and when you have so done, you must reduce it to one whole body again. And if it do not lose its softness at the first time as you deal so by it, use the same course the second time, and so likewise the third time rather than fail, and by this means you shall at length obtain your purpose: for, by so doing the Tin will wax so hard, that it will endure the fire till it be red hot, before ever it will melt. By the like practice we may also harden all other soft bodies, to make them red hot before they shall be melted: but the experience thereof is more clear in Tinne then in any other Mettals whatsoever. We may also take away the creaking noise of Tinne, if we melt it seven several times, and quench it every time in the urine of children; or else in the oyl of Wall-nuts: for this is the only means to expel that quality and imperfection out of it. Thus then we have declared the manner how to extract these accidents from it: but all this while we have not shewed how it may be transformed into Silver: which now we are to speak of, as soon as ever we have shewed the manner.

    How to Bring Tin into Powder,

    which we promised to teach. Let your Tinne boil in the fire, and when it is very liquid, pour it forth into a stout morter: and when it beginnith to wax cold, and to be congealed together again, you must stir it and turn it round about with a wooden pestle, and not let it stand still in any case; thus shall you cause it to be congealed into very small crums as little as dust: and when you have so done, put it into a very fine ranging sieve, and sift out the smallest of it; and that which is left behind in your sieve, because it is too great and not broken well enough, you must put it into the fire again, and use the very same course with it to break it into smaller dust, as you used before; for unless it be thoroughly broken into powder, it is not serviceable, nor fit for your purpose. Having therefore shewed you how to break your Tin into small crums, also how expel out of it those imperfections whereby it is made manifestly discerned from Silver, knowing these things are very necessary preparatives as it were to the main matter which we have in hand, let us now come to the principal experiment it self, namely

    How to alter and transform Tin, that it may become silver,

    You must take an earthen vessel, somewhat wide mouthed; but it must be very strongly and firmly made, that it be thoroughly able to endure the vehemency of the fire, even to be red hot. Into this vessel put your Tin broken into such small crums as have been spoken of, and therein you must with an iron ladel stirre it up and down continuously without ceasing, till it be all on a light fire, and yet none of the Metal to be melted; when you have so done, that you have given it over, and it gathereth together in one body or lump again, you must bestow upon it the very same labour upon it the second time, so long as it may stand in small crums all on a fire for the space of six hours together, without melting. But if some part of the Metal be melted by the vehement heat of the fire, and some other part of it remain non melted, then you must take away that which is melted, and when it is congealed, you must break it into small powder once again, and you must run over your whole labour again with it, even in the same vessel and with the same instrument a before. After this, when you have brought all your Metal into that perfection, it will endure the fire without melting, then you must put it into a glass fornace where glass is want to be made, or else into some Oven that is made of purpose to reflex the heat of the fire to the best advantage, and there let it be tormented and applied with a very great fire for the space of three or four days together until such time as it is made perfectly white as snow: for the smaller that it is broken and beaten into powder, the more perfectly it will take white, and be the fitter for your purpose, and more exactly satisfy your expectations. After all this, you must put it into a vessel that shall be almost full of vinegar, and the vinegar must cover all the Tinne, and swim about three inches above it. There you must distill it and let the vinegar boil with it so long, till the Tinne hath coloured it, and made of it his own hue and thickened it into a more gross substance. Then let it stand a while, and when it is thoroughly settled, pour out the vinegar and put in new, and temper it well with those ashes or crums of Tinne; and this you must do again and again, till all of your Tinne be dissolved in the vinegar. If by this often repetition of this labour, you cannot effect such a dissolution, then you must put it once again to the fire in such a fornace, or else into such an Oven as we spake of before, that so it may be reduced into white ashes more exactly and perfectly, whereby it may be more easily dissolved into vinegar. After this, you must let vapour of the vinegar be exhalted and drained out, and the Tinne that is left behind must be put into a certain vessel where ashes have been wont to be put, and then melt some fine Lead and put amongst it; and because the Lead that is put in will bear up the Tinne aloft, therefore you must make certain little balls or pills compounded of Soap and Lime, or else of Salt-peter and Brimstone, or some other like fat earthy stuff, and cast them in amongst the Lead and Tinne, and they will cause the Tinne to drench it self within the Lead: and by this means, all your Tinne that doth take the Lead, and is incorporated into it by a just proportion and equal temperance, doth become very excellent good Silver. But this is a marvelous hard labour, and not to be achieved without very great difficulty. You may likewise alter and transform

    Tinne into Lead

    An easie matter for any man to effect, by reducing Tinne into ashes or powder often times: for the often burning of it will cause the creaking noise which it is want to make. To be voided from it, and so to become Lead without anymore ado; and especially, if you use a convenient fire, when you go about to reduce it into powder.

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    Where can I read about the silver and yeast experiment?

    Would this work with other metals also??

    I found a piece of rusted copper yesterday that seems to have "grown" some yellow stuff that I just can't help but think could be gold. I don't know for sure, but it just looks sooooo much like gold (and I know my gold both natural and jewellery standard).

    This copper would have been exposed to the dew for about 6 months including spring.

    I'm very curious....
    Join me; on a voyage of stupidity, and self discovery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=vccZSHroTG4

  5. #5
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    Here is a similar thread:

    Gold Forming Bacteria
    Art is Nature in the flask; Nature is a vial thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiorionis View Post
    Here is a similar thread:

    Gold Forming Bacteria
    Not quite. The gold in that one actually preexists in the substances involved, the bacteria only separate it. This thread is about genuine transmutations (i.e. the gold & silver obtained did NOT preexist in any of the substances involved.)

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    So what I'm seeing is, base metals, if they can transmute with chymical processes go to silver.

    Silver, with the elixir, goes to gold. I'll toss in lead and mercury here based on what I've read too.

    Would we expect then, that the elixir could also make silver of lesser metals, like the chymical processes. I know it seems kind of stupid to make silver when one could be making gold, but I'm considering the options for other tests of the material as well. If it can prolong life and make gold, it probably has some other treasures in it that aren't so well documented.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon's Tail View Post
    So what I'm seeing is, base metals, if they can transmute with chymical processes go to silver.
    Yes, and silver in its turn can be made to yield gold (which was NOT there before) by chymical processes as well. What you can't do with chymical processes is to transmute the entire mass of a metal into silver or gold. Such transmuting power belongs to the Stone/Elixir and the "particular tinctures" of alchemy only (all of which depend on the secret solvent for their preparation.) All chymical transmutations are fractional. Some chymical processes give more precious metal yield than others, but the resulting silver and gold are always inferior in quantity to the "baser" metals employed in such processes.

    Silver, with the elixir, goes to gold. I'll toss in lead and mercury here based on what I've read too.

    Would we expect then, that the elixir could also make silver of lesser metals, like the chymical processes. I know it seems kind of stupid to make silver when one could be making gold, but I'm considering the options for other tests of the material as well. If it can prolong life and make gold, it probably has some other treasures in it that aren't so well documented.
    The white Elixir turns metals into silver, the red one into gold.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon's Tail View Post
    So. I just melted some lead to do a little test. Absolute failure, but I don't think my little stone is ready, it seems to still have some bound water that made it sputter and pop (not that I was expecting anything in particular, but it has well exceeded my expectations in every arena already for such a humble concoction).

    But I got to thinking, the melting point of Zinc is only 420c, which is almost 100 higher than lead, and tin is around 230c, almost 100 lower. The alchemists talk about elevation of base metals pretty generally, but when it comes to transmutation, we seem to focus on mercury and lead.

    I had to go digging around everywhere to find some fishing weights to test with, but I have tin and aluminum laying about everywhere. I realize alchemists probably didn't work with aluminum, but it raises the question. I also have a ton of modern pennies that are primarily copper-plated zinc. If the stone transmutes lead and mercury into silver and gold (depending on which writing you refer to) I wonder what we might expect from other metals. Even antimony.

    Zinc to copper?
    Tin to quicksilver?

    Food for thought mainly, but if anyone has any references or suspicions, I would love to hear them. How about Antimony to Platinum???
    Think about what you are trying to do. Turning Lead into Gold at the melting point of Lead would break every law in the book regarding thermodynamics. For it to turn to Gold and retain the melting point of Gold would need a significant rise in temperature from the melting point of Lead. This would mean a 400% increase in energy would be needed to attain the melting point of gold from the melting point of lead.
    Some simple guidelines to follow: If you are transmuting Silver into Gold, get the Silver to the melting point of Gold first so that no increase in energy is required during the cold fusion transmutation. Another rule of thumb is this: any transmutation attempted will use donor atoms from either Carbon or Oxygen or both simultaneously. We know from work done in Japan that they started the experiment with Carbon which has a Proton/Electron arrangement of 6 respectively with 2-4 in the Electron valance. From the experiment they found that the Electron valance went to 2-8-16-2, which is that of Nickel and the conclusions were the donors were 2 Oxygen to form the 16 valance and 1 Carbon to form half of the 8 valance and the other 2 valance. Unfortunately, the Nickel had an half life of milliseconds because there appeared to be an unbalance and they lost 2 Protons and Electrons ending up with Iron + some heat. But the Iron wasn't normal and didn't rust. From the data we can conclude thus: Silver with a valance of 2,8,18,18,1 is missing 32 protons and 32 electrons to form that of Gold which is 2,8,18,32,18,1. In order to transmutate Silver to Gold the donor particle is Oxygen, 4 Oxygen atoms in fact and a little bit of magic concerning the Neutrons. Because the Neutrons is the part that Pons and Fleischmann didn't even fully understand. It may well be that the Neutrons are mere subatomic particles that can be formed either from donor particles such as Oxygen and Carbon but it is not quite yet understood where the numbers disappear to in none common denominator calculations. For example Gold has 79 electrons, 79 Protons and 118 Neutrons, if Oxygen donates 4 atoms to Silver which is 32 Protons, 32 Electrons and 32 Neutrons, Gold is still short of 25 Neutrons. It could be possible that 1 Oxygen atom donates this by converting 8+8+8 into 24 Neutrons or it may well be a rule of nature that in transmutation only an exact amount of atoms can be converted plus a little heat exchange as noted by both Pons and Fleischmann and the Japanese although Pons and Fleischmann were working with Palladium/Nickel and the Japanese were working with Carbon and Oxygen. It still isn't understood how Neutrons fall into the fray.
    Back to our Silver to Gold discussion, we can be quite certain that Oxygen in this case is the donor particle and assuming you have the donor in the correct configuration to willfully accept what you ask of it then it would be quite rude of you to ask the Silver which has a melting point of 961c to assume the melting point of Gold which is 1064c. The Silver needs to be 1064c too otherwise not only does it need to transmute, it will also need to gain energy from nowhere. As for expecting Lead to turn to Gold, then your projection powder is not longer providing donor atoms but it must receive donor Atoms from the Lead which is a very different ball game. As a point of interest from the Japanese research, it would be of value to researchers to note that Potassium Carbonate (K2CO3) does not have an high enough Oxygen content to donate to silver. Potassium Phosphate K3O4P however, does. It is also of interest to know that during the process of making the stone that it may be of a certain advantage to include Phosphorus during the distilling process so that when you come to the firing process, the things that we see in the chemistry of Phosphorus and are well known about also appear in your own processes. You never know, you could end up with a compound that has a chemical formula of K4P2O7. Then the Neutron common denominator problem kindly disappears.
    Life begins on the 49th day.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by nav2010 View Post
    Think about what you are trying to do. Turning Lead into Gold at the melting point of Lead would break every law in the book regarding thermodynamics. For it to turn to Gold and retain the melting point of Gold would need a significant rise in temperature from the melting point of Lead. This would mean a 400% increase in energy would be needed to attain the melting point of gold from the melting point of lead.
    Some simple guidelines to follow: If you are transmuting Silver into Gold, get the Silver to the melting point of Gold first so that no increase in energy is required during the cold fusion transmutation. Another rule of thumb is this: any transmutation attempted will use donor atoms from either Carbon or Oxygen or both simultaneously. We know from work done in Japan that they started the experiment with Carbon which has a Proton/Electron arrangement of 6 respectively with 2-4 in the Electron valance. From the experiment they found that the Electron valance went to 2-8-16-2, which is that of Nickel and the conclusions were the donors were 2 Oxygen to form the 16 valance and 1 Carbon to form half of the 8 valance and the other 2 valance. Unfortunately, the Nickel had an half life of milliseconds because there appeared to be an unbalance and they lost 2 Protons and Electrons ending up with Iron + some heat. But the Iron wasn't normal and didn't rust. From the data we can conclude thus: Silver with a valance of 2,8,18,18,1 is missing 32 protons and 32 electrons to form that of Gold which is 2,8,18,32,18,1. In order to transmutate Silver to Gold the donor particle is Oxygen, 4 Oxygen atoms in fact and a little bit of magic concerning the Neutrons. Because the Neutrons is the part that Pons and Fleischmann didn't even fully understand. It may well be that the Neutrons are mere subatomic particles that can be formed either from donor particles such as Oxygen and Carbon but it is not quite yet understood where the numbers disappear to in none common denominator calculations. For example Gold has 79 electrons, 79 Protons and 118 Neutrons, if Oxygen donates 4 atoms to Silver which is 32 Protons, 32 Electrons and 32 Neutrons, Gold is still short of 25 Neutrons. It could be possible that 1 Oxygen atom donates this by converting 8+8+8 into 24 Neutrons or it may well be a rule of nature that in transmutation only an exact amount of atoms can be converted plus a little heat exchange as noted by both Pons and Fleischmann and the Japanese although Pons and Fleischmann were working with Palladium/Nickel and the Japanese were working with Carbon and Oxygen. It still isn't understood how Neutrons fall into the fray.
    Back to our Silver to Gold discussion, we can be quite certain that Oxygen in this case is the donor particle and assuming you have the donor in the correct configuration to willfully accept what you ask of it then it would be quite rude of you to ask the Silver which has a melting point of 961c to assume the melting point of Gold which is 1064c. The Silver needs to be 1064c too otherwise not only does it need to transmute, it will also need to gain energy from nowhere. As for expecting Lead to turn to Gold, then your projection powder is not longer providing donor atoms but it must receive donor Atoms from the Lead which is a very different ball game. As a point of interest from the Japanese research, it would be of value to researchers to note that Potassium Carbonate (K2CO3) does not have an high enough Oxygen content to donate to silver. Potassium Phosphate K3O4P however, does. It is also of interest to know that during the process of making the stone that it may be of a certain advantage to include Phosphorus during the distilling process so that when you come to the firing process, the things that we see in the chemistry of Phosphorus and are well known about also appear in your own processes. You never know, you could end up with a compound that has a chemical formula of K4P2O7. Then the Neutron common denominator problem kindly disappears.
    Interesting insight. The neutron problem may end up remedying itself. If we are talking about nuclear processes, neutrons can decay into protons and electrons and vice versa, so from that perspective (assuming the other nuclear processes are valid) "whole weight" of each atom would be more important than divying up the Ns and Ps. And further, for that matter, neutrons and protons are the stuff that comes out when you smash them. There's a lot of support for the theory, but what actually happens in a nucleus could potentially be very different than what we THINK happens. Nuclear physics get's a little hand-wavy on this issue. Strong force, weak force, etc. Whatever is needed to describe the processes mathematically and have predictive power, but the underlying "essence" is hardly proven from an "I can literally see it" perspective. Nuclei still hold great mysteries, no matter how much chemists wish to believe we have it all figured out.

    I've thought about the temperature problem, of course. I don't have a way to gauge other than get the lead really hot and hope that it doesn't liberate. The real reason was to make a chunk or two that I could use from some fishing equipment. I still need to skim some tin. Just thought I would toss in some of my little plant concoction and see what happened.

    Good info. Thank you for sharing.

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