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Thread: Do you know what you are looking for?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kibric View Post
    Would you prove it to me in PM ?
    " Turning water into earth the hardest part " is this where you are stuck ?
    If you share with me i will share my work with you.
    It is difficult to say where I am stuck because I have recently realised where I went wrong last time I tried this. On my next attempt with these corrections who knows.

    I think I know where you are at, I seen your photo. You created the red oil which floats on the matter and then attempted to isolate this red oil by drying or separation? You believe this red oil is the stone?

    I cant do the whole PM thing, it conflicts with my ideas of morality in Alchemy.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luxus View Post
    At some time in history there must have been the first man who was the first to produce the stone. Do you think this guy just accidentally discovered this weird substance or do you think he first had a theory, was following a process ?

    I believe he had a theory first and that theory was generated (I believe) from philosophical contemplation on the pythagorean tetractys. Perhaps it was a theory for a long time, a goal among philosophers however eventually someone discovered the substances that made the theory reality. Still this person would have followed the theory only replacing symbols and concepts with real world matter. Others (Zosimos) believe man never worked it out but was given it complete. Yes those decknames conceal other things but they are not random in their selection ie they have similar properties.
    I am sure that whoever the first person was to prepare the Stone, he must have accidentally discovered it. One combination, one curious reaction, then another one, and so forth, until by trial and error he arrived at this peculiar artificial substance. There is nothing in nature itself or in common human industry that suggests that something like the Stone does exist, so he could not have envisioned its existence beforehand. Notice that I am talking exclusively here about the Stone itself, not transmutation more generally. This fellow, whoever he was, was likely indeed trying to make silver and gold, since there are things in nature and common human industry which do seem to suggest that transmutation of one metal into another is possible (for example, the fact that lead is commonly accompanied by smaller amounts of silver, or silver commonly accompanied by smaller amounts of gold, strongly suggests to a curious, inquisitive mind that "something" might be behind these observable facts, and maybe nature itself is somehow producing smaller amounts of silver and gold from larger amounts of baser metals, so why not try to replicate it or actually improve it through human industry?), but he could not have predicted that a transmuting agent that could change many times its own weight of base metals into precious ones actually existed. No one had seen any such thing before, since nature and common human industry do not produce such a thing.

  3. #43
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    Well I view the pythagorean tetractys as an equation which theoretically reveals the possibility of creating such a substance. Looking at this equation I know the general nature of this substance, the theory of how it is made and some insights as to how it could be used. I think the first person who made the stone could basically see what I can. To make this through random experimentation is almost impossible.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luxus View Post
    Well I view the pythagorean tetractys as an equation which theoretically reveals the possibility of creating such a substance. Looking at this equation I know the general nature of this substance, the theory of how it is made and some insights as to how it could be used. I think the first person who made the stone could basically see what I can. To make this through random experimentation is almost impossible.
    It is way more possible and realistic (but less "romantic") to make it by a fluke resulting from persistent and constant trials & errors, than by the speculative ruminations about geometry that you are referring to. There is no connection whatsoever between tetractys and the actual empirical operations that lead to the Stone.

  5. #45
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    Geometric? would you say an equation is geometric also? Each component of an equation has a quality, this is no different. The tetractys is in fact the shortest and most accurate alchemical tract ever written...my opinion obviously.

    Would you consider the I ching trigrams as purely geometrical also?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luxus View Post
    Geometric? would you say an equation is geometric also? Each component of an equation has a quality, this is no different. The tetractys is in fact the shortest and most accurate alchemical tract ever written...my opinion obviously.

    Would you consider the I ching trigrams as purely geometrical also?
    It's mystical concepts being applied to geometry:

    https://www.ancient-symbols.com/symb...tetractys.html

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luxus View Post
    At some time in history there must have been the first man who was the first to produce the stone. Do you think this guy just accidentally discovered this weird substance or do you think he first had a theory, was following a process ?

    I believe he had a theory first and that theory was generated (I believe) from philosophical contemplation on the pythagorean tetractys. Perhaps it was a theory for a long time, a goal among philosophers however eventually someone discovered the substances that made the theory reality. Still this person would have followed the theory only replacing symbols and concepts with real world matter. Others (Zosimos) believe man never worked it out but was given it complete. Yes those decknames conceal other things but they are not random in their selection ie they have similar properties.
    Now we're getting somewhere. This "thing" was first created by someone. My speculation tells me that a pot was left closed overnight, and the blackness inside prompted a curiosity. I'm also with JDP that there was most likely speculation about where gold and silver come from, and how they end up where we find them in nature. Hell, physicists today still debate whether stellar novas are responsible for the elements we see heavier than iron. The standard "doctrine" is that everything is made of stardust, but the theory of how it's done is still questioned (as it should be, as EVERY theory should be again and again, or you aren't doing science, you're making dogma)

    There is a bit of chicken-and-egg to think about, however. Did the philosophy develop first, or the process. Are we making the whole matter too complicated because of what's written in the texts? What if it's something simple, something overlooked, something so basic that it's ignored and never tested. How many materials have YOU projected onto molten lead or tin or copper or silver to see what happens (general "you," not directed at anyone in particular)?
    How many of us have mixed a little "tincture" with a metallic sample and tossed it into the forge for a few hours. Seth Ra posted his, and while I have my doubts about whether his results represent a true transmutation, it's still putting a substance to the test. Imagine if tomorrow we found out that NaCl or MgSO4 will transmute mercury into gold, how many of us would slap ourselves for never giving it a shot? And if you discovered such a thing, how guarded would you keep that secret? The very knowledge of such a thing would be enough to cripple empires.

    First discoveries come in two natures, serendipity and engineering. One who sought to produce gold might look to the stones it is found in, the environment, and try to duplicate and perfect that environment. I will argue with you here, JDP, that if I thought gold was born of quartz by nature, I would have no quarrel with the idea that the right reaction alone could produce tons. Let alone a bit of catalyst. It doesn't take much salt added to a large pool of water before it can be tasted across the whole stretch. The stains and smells of impurity reach far and wide, and once water has aquired one, it takes a lot of fresh water to rid the bucket of it.

    Then, as I've said before, there's this matter of timing. The Chinese alchemical arts are known as the way of the crucible, and construction of the vessel seemed to be a primary and important concern. The ancient Egyptians, long before the pyramids, didn't value gold among the commoners. It was just a shiny rock that was turned over to the leadership and from there traded off with other civilizations, and they had a lot of it given the region they harvested from. Then there are all the references to the story of Diana and Orion. What secrets are held in that Greek legend? (BTW, if you have a copy of that you could point me to, I'd appreciate it)

    I personally think that the substance was found first, and it's powers were discovered later, but the originating person or village knew well from the start that they were on to something very special and precious. The white paste. Silver and Gold could be a metaphor, despite the references, and the powers of this thing could make them irrelevant. Or, perhaps transmutation of metals was tried and successful long after it was discovered. I have a feeling that there is a lot more to this work than religious experience, common medicine, or getting rich. There's something very special about the substance that can be realized in an instant. Ever look at a production in your flask and simply smile at it? It might not be the elixir, but you know it's special.

    Aristotle believed that the four elements were not enough, because they are perishable, and that the fifth, a quintessence, was responsible for the eternality of the heavens.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon's Tail View Post

    Aristotle believed that the four elements were not enough, because they are perishable, and that the fifth, a quintessence, was responsible for the eternality of the heavens.
    Our reality is composed of the four elements, all of it. Because of the natural tendency of elements to transform one to another nothing in our realm is permanent, nothing is eternal or can escape death. The more balanced the four elements are within a substance the slower the rate of change. Gold has an almost perfect blend of the four and thus it changes very little over time.

    The quintessence is the stone in another form. It is the reason for the eternity of heaven and those who live there (the gods). By consuming it daily their blood is transmuted into Ichor. If an alchemist makes this elixir his blood will also be transmuted into Ichor and will become like the gods.

  9. #49
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    By consuming it daily their blood is transmuted into Ichor. If an alchemist makes this elixir his blood will also be transmuted into Ichor and will become like the gods.
    Why isn't it poison to those consuming it ?
    if it can easily replace your blood what common nature must they both share ?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kibric View Post
    Why isn't it poison to those consuming it ?
    if it can easily replace your blood what common nature must they both share ?
    As I see it, all crude matter is poisonous. And there is "subtle" matter, which is eternal.

    Legendary Fall of Mankind is fall from eternal matter into crude matter. This crude matter is full of darkness.

    "Subtle", pure matter, on other hand, is capable of preservation, reconstruction and rejuvenation.

    This crude matter is deadly and if man won't find the way to become immortal, he will die forever. People on this planet don't care about immortality, because they think that money is everything, that there is some inherent immortality of soul ("thanks" to religions) and they have blind faith in their highly destructive science.

    Also I would be very careful with word "quintessence". It literally means "fifth essence". All occult knowledge came from the East but in highly garbled state. So Western people dropped off 5th Element (Ether) because they couldn't comprehend it. If to speak about Inner Salt of all things, I'd say it is something totally different.

    This is merely my view, I don't pretend on having ultimate truth.
    Last edited by Warmheart; 05-03-2018 at 01:12 PM.

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