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Thread: Interesting Water Work Lineage

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    No matter what you can obtain from common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O), which are merely things suspended or dissolved in it, the water itself will always remain the same old common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O) it has always been. This is true of all common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O), whether from rain, or dew, or whatever. There is no way that you will ever see any common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O) perform the things the alchemists described in their books. Take a look at this passage from the Turba Philosophorum, for example:

    For when the fire is kindled the vinegar ascends, because its spiritual nature passes into the air, wherefore, I direct you to keep that part separately. Ye must also know that by multiplied decoctions and attritions it is congealed and coloured by the fire, and its nature is changed. By a similar decoction and liquefaction Cambar is not disjoined. I notify to you that by the said frequent decoction the weight of a third part of the water is consumed, but the residue becomes a wind in the Cambar of the second spirit. And know ye that nothing is more precious or more excellent than the red sand of the sea, for the Sputum of Luna is united with the light of the Sun's rays. Luna is perfected by the coming on of night, and by the heat of the Sun the dew is congealed. Then, that being wounded, the dew of the death dealer is joined, and the more the days pass on the more intensely is it congealed, and is not burned.

    Pay attention to this "congealing" of the "water" or "dew". That's the obvious telltale sign that what is being described is NOT the result of operations with either rain-water, or dew, or any other kind of common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O), which will NEVER, EVER, NOT IN A MILLION YEARS of continuous "cooking" solidify into any permanent substance that resists the fire, either by itself or mixed with whatever you like. It will simply continue to be the same old common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O) it always was. Heat does NOTHING WHATSOEVER to common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O), except evaporate it (a mere change of state, not of its INTRINSIC NATURE.) This is quite contrary to the "water" of the alchemists, which has the peculiar and very unusual characteristic of "congealing" or "coagulating" through "coctions", specially when it dissolves certain mineral/metallic substances, with which it permanently joins and becomes a solid substance resistant to fire and penetrating into metals (i.e. an alchemical "tincture".) The "congealing" or "coagulation" of this "water" is so important, that Khalid Ibn Yazid in one of his alchemical poems in fact said that it is the sign that you are on the right track:

    When I saw the Water coagulating itself I became sure that the thing was right as has been described. - quoted by Ibn Umail in his Book of the Silvery Water and the Starry Earth.

    So, when you read alchemical texts (proper, not texts by chymical dilettantes) that mention "water", "rain", "dew", etc., always take it for granted that they mean this secret artificial liquid of theirs, which is generated inside their flasks/retorts ("microcosm") out of the right combination of substances, and not on the "outside" world we live in ("macrocosm"), where this "water" is never found or generated anywhere (nature in fact CANNOT produce this thing; the chances that the right combination of substances would occur in a natural setting for this "water" to be generated would be practically ZERO, that's why it is never found in nature and the alchemist has to figure out how to make it.)
    I don't question the qualities of pure water. Therefore I suggested focusing on those impurities or biomass produced during putrification. They did not have microorganisms on the screen in former times and it would be an explanation why to be careful with the heat.

    I do question those author's adept status too. Especially Becker was no adept for sure. BTW, I don't consider the forming of a red oil necessarily as something alchemical too. Ketchup should as well be considered as alchemical then. But I am interested in what those guys got, as I don't think all those guys following that path are liars.

    BTW, if this hypothesis is right, then there is a reasonable connection between the recipe for the "vinegar mother" in the Aurea Catena Homeri and his water works section. As you could simply leave some "Gur" inside the flask and subsequently pour more rainwater or dew on top, causing the "Gur" to grow faster in higher quantities.

    Of course one can argue if the Aurea Catena really is about advanced alchemy, but I just make assumptions, which I try to verify in the lab. The advantage: It's no big effort.
    Last edited by Florius Frammel; 06-05-2018 at 04:17 PM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
    You can indeed get something other than simple H2O out of ordinary water with nothing but destillation even according to conventional chemistry. Quoting the Wikipedia article on Heavy Water:
    That's already contained in the common water, it's not a product of the manipulations.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    That's already contained in the common water, it's not a product of the manipulations.
    Well, whatever the water alchemists are distilling out of it could be already contained in it too.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
    Well, whatever the water alchemists are distilling out of it could be already contained in it too.
    If that was the case, don't you think it would already have been isolated, cataloged and thus become well-known by virtually everyone? Just like it has happened to countless substances discovered by such simple methods as mere extraction. To the more than 1500 years worth of all manner of ancient and medieval seekers after the Stone submitting virtually every single matter ready at hand to distillation (among all sorts of other operations), add more than 300 years of "chymists" and spagyrists submitting to distillation, and cataloging what could be obtained, virtually all single matters at their disposal, and then add some 200+ years of modern chemists continuing to do the same. That's more than 2000 years of accumulated empirical experience with virtually every single substance readily available at hand to man. Can anyone seriously believe that the "water" of the alchemists can possibly be obtained by such simple methods from such simple substances by themselves? One would have to be very disconnected from reality & common sense to convince himself of such a thing. The reason why alchemy is so tough to unravel is in fact because it is a bit more complex than many malicious and envious alchemists have painted it to be. So it certainly is not a question of just finding some mythical "one matter" that conveniently contains everything to make the Stone and is ready to just "extract" it and recombine it. It is pretty easy to predict that such an approach will not work. Countless legions of seekers failed by manipulating all manner of single minerals, plant & animal-derived products. The "water" of the alchemists is not any "natural" thing, since nature on its own (i.e. without man's intelligent & purposeful intervention) will never make such a thing, therefore it is useless to seek it in nature already made. It is an artificial substance, made by the alchemist himself by combining the right matters that will generate this substance and making them react under the appropriate conditions. It is not any "extraction" but a "synthesis" (to use more modern vocabulary.)

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    If that was the case, don't you think it would already have been isolated, cataloged and thus become well-known by virtually everyone? Just like it has happened to countless substances discovered by such simple methods as mere extraction. To the more than 1500 years worth of all manner of ancient and medieval seekers after the Stone submitting virtually every single matter ready at hand to distillation (among all sorts of other operations), add more than 300 years of "chymists" and spagyrists submitting to distillation, and cataloging what could be obtained, virtually all single matters at their disposal, and then add some 200+ years of modern chemists continuing to do the same. That's more than 2000 years of accumulated empirical experience with virtually every single substance readily available at hand to man. Can anyone seriously believe that the "water" of the alchemists can possibly be obtained by such simple methods from such simple substances by themselves? One would have to be very disconnected from reality & common sense to convince himself of such a thing. The reason why alchemy is so tough to unravel is in fact because it is a bit more complex than many malicious and envious alchemists have painted it to be. So it certainly is not a question of just finding some mythical "one matter" that conveniently contains everything to make the Stone and is ready to just "extract" it and recombine it. It is pretty easy to predict that such an approach will not work. Countless legions of seekers failed by manipulating all manner of single minerals, plant & animal-derived products. The "water" of the alchemists is not any "natural" thing, since nature on its own (i.e. without man's intelligent & purposeful intervention) will never make such a thing, therefore it is useless to seek it in nature already made. It is an artificial substance, made by the alchemist himself by combining the right matters that will generate this substance and making them react under the appropriate conditions. It is not any "extraction" but a "synthesis" (to use more modern vocabulary.)
    What you say is very reasonable imo. The probability of such a matter existing readily available indeed is very very low.
    But putrefying matter and subsequently working with the whole thing or certain parts of it is another thing, especially when organic matters and microorganisms are involved (even when assuming with the eye that none are there in the first place). The results can vary a lot when doing it with different kind of operations, hand grips and circumstances. For example, before the discovery of yeast they used to let their fruit mash stand in a cellar. The yeast cumulated and encapsuled itself at the walls of the cellar, leading to miraculously constant putrefaction results over years in some cases, while other attempts (mostly outside) often produced vinegar or poor quality wine due to wild yeasts and vinegar bacterias from fruit flies. BTW, the praised Aurea Catena claims that those flies are "somehow" born/produced/transformed out of the putrefaction of plant matter because of that obvious observation of their attraction by that kind of biomass.

    I would not totally exclude other "flicks of the wrist" though very unlikely and I do confess I have no real idea what those may be (concerning 100% pure water).
    Last edited by Florius Frammel; 06-05-2018 at 09:26 PM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    If that was the case, don't you think it would already have been isolated, cataloged and thus become well-known by virtually everyone? Just like it has happened to countless substances discovered by such simple methods as mere extraction. To the more than 1500 years worth of all manner of ancient and medieval seekers after the Stone submitting virtually every single matter ready at hand to distillation (among all sorts of other operations), add more than 300 years of "chymists" and spagyrists submitting to distillation, and cataloging what could be obtained, virtually all single matters at their disposal, and then add some 200+ years of modern chemists continuing to do the same. That's more than 2000 years of accumulated empirical experience with virtually every single substance readily available at hand to man.
    And yet it wasn't before 1933 that heavy water was isolated for the first time, albeit distilling water is one of the most simple chemical operations, done all the time for milleniums!

    Moreover, there are indeed a number of reports of a mysterious substance extracted from water, as you know. Sure, many of them are from a time long before there were peer reviewed science magazines of worldwide distribution, and written by researchers who were reluctant to give full accounts of their discoveries (contemporary alchemists still tend to be like that ). So it's not very surprising that this discovery would not become part of general knowledge. But why you would dismiss all those reports as fraud or delusional, when at the same time you readily embrace so much of alchemical writing containing statements no less inacceptable to modern science?

    E.g., you have posted repeatedly about the transmutation of elements at low energy levels, even claiming to have accomplished this yourself (if memory serves). And according to some such reports I have read, it seems like those transmutations don't even require complicated set-ups necessarily - yet they have not been discovered and confirmed by "official" science to this day.

    The reason may well be that "official" science is based on a set of rigorous assumptions; anything that would violate that frame of reference is rarely explored. And as aforesaid extraction from water is said to require a "flick of the hand", accidental discovery seems somewhat unlikely. But even if an average chemist would by chance distill anything but water out of water, they would tend to dismiss it as some kind of contamination right away. Or at least refrain from publishing their results, especially if the experiment could not be readily reproduced. - Many a brave scientist had to take their hat for publishing a discovery that could not be verified beyond the shadow of a doubt.

    Can anyone seriously believe that the "water" of the alchemists can possibly be obtained by such simple methods from such simple substances by themselves? One would have to be very disconnected from reality & common sense to convince himself of such a thing. The reason why alchemy is so tough to unravel is in fact because it is a bit more complex than many malicious and envious alchemists have painted it to be. So it certainly is not a question of just finding some mythical "one matter" that conveniently contains everything to make the Stone and is ready to just "extract" it and recombine it. It is pretty easy to predict that such an approach will not work. Countless legions of seekers failed by manipulating all manner of single minerals, plant & animal-derived products. The "water" of the alchemists is not any "natural" thing, since nature on its own (i.e. without man's intelligent & purposeful intervention) will never make such a thing, therefore it is useless to seek it in nature already made. It is an artificial substance, made by the alchemist himself by combining the right matters that will generate this substance and making them react under the appropriate conditions. It is not any "extraction" but a "synthesis" (to use more modern vocabulary.)
    Nobody has claimed to have extracted the Philosopher's Stone per se from water (at least to my knowledge), but rather a starting material for its manufacture.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
    And yet it wasn't before 1933 that heavy water was isolated for the first time, albeit distilling water is one of the most simple chemical operations, done all the time for milleniums!
    That's because the apparatuses for detecting such a thing were not available long before that. This thing was always there, as a natural impurity of water, though. It did not help anyone who tried to make the Stone with vulgar/common water one bit, nonetheless. So we can very safely discard that vulgar/common water or any of its naturally occurring impurities is the secret of alchemy.

    Moreover, there are indeed a number of reports of a mysterious substance extracted from water, as you know. Sure, many of them are from a time long before there were peer reviewed science magazines of worldwide distribution, and written by researchers who were reluctant to give full accounts of their discoveries (contemporary alchemists still tend to be like that ). So it's not very surprising that this discovery would not become part of general knowledge. But why you would dismiss all those reports as fraud or delusional, when at the same time you readily embrace so much of alchemical writing containing statements no less inacceptable to modern science?

    E.g., you have posted repeatedly about the transmutation of elements at low energy levels, even claiming to have accomplished this yourself (if memory serves). And according to some such reports I have read, it seems like those transmutations don't even require complicated set-ups necessarily - yet they have not been discovered and confirmed by "official" science to this day.
    But all of them work with manipulations of several substances, never with only one. So far, I have never seen anything remotely interesting (from this point of view of "unusual" results) and that wasn't already common knowledge by manipulating any single substance whatsoever. Pretty much all of what you can obtain from such simple single substances that are readily available at hand to the average person has already been probed, discovered and cataloged by other people long ago. That's because it is much easier to investigate the composition of simple naturally-occurring substances than it is to investigate the much more vast and variable world of mixtures and the artificial products they form due to their interactions. That's why all manner of artificial substances are still being discovered, despite the thousands of years of accumulated empirical experience in this department as well, whereas new substances obtained from simple single naturally-occurring substances are rarely so.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    I have never seen anything remotely interesting (from this point of view of "unusual" results) and that wasn't already common knowledge by manipulating any single substance whatsoever. Pretty much all of what you can obtain from such simple single substances that are readily available at hand to the average person has already been probed, discovered and cataloged by other people long ago.
    The problem is the inductive reasoning. Going from "I have never seen" to "thus it doesn't exist".
    Some time ago a friend was talking to me about his experiments with water, some of them with a catalyst that should not leave any trace anyway.... and how he was getting a salt that can't be attacked by acids.
    I laughed because his catalyst is exactly one of the things I use to clean my ceramic floor... and I get the same salts, except that in my case they are not an "alchemical experiment", but a "domestic burden"... because I can't remove them with anything. I had promised this person a photo, I never sent it, but here it is:



    So, yes, it is possible to extract salts from water... They may or may not have an alchemical use... they can also become a burden at the house (thus I am no longer using the same products to clean the floor and switched to more conventional methods... I hate this salt that is so hard to remove).

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    The problem is the inductive reasoning. Going from "I have never seen" to "thus it doesn't exist".
    Some time ago a friend was talking to me about his experiments with water, some of them with a catalyst that should not leave any trace anyway.... and how he was getting a salt that can't be attacked by acids.
    I laughed because his catalyst is exactly one of the things I use to clean my ceramic floor... and I get the same salts, except that in my case they are not an "alchemical experiment", but a "domestic burden"... because I can't remove them with anything. I had promised this person a photo, I never sent it, but here it is:



    So, yes, it is possible to extract salts from water... They may or may not have an alchemical use... they can also become a burden at the house (thus I am no longer using the same products to clean the floor and switched to more conventional methods... I hate this salt that is so hard to remove).
    Only if they preexist in the said common/vulgar water, or, as is likely the case here, the other substance being brought into play gives it to the common/vulgar water. Which, by the way, already violates the "one single substance" context I was talking about.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Only if they preexist in the said common/vulgar water, or, as is likely the case here, the other substance being brought into play gives it to the common/vulgar water. Which, by the way, already violates the "one single substance" context I was talking about.
    It does and it doesn't.
    As a way to say it, if you mix water and alcohol... and you heat it for some hours, you'll end up with water again... and no traces of alcohol will be left. So it is a bit relative.

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