The Hollandus debate: Dry vs Wet

[elixirmixer]

Note: Continued from HERE.

Alembics are very useful for distilling things extremely gently.

For instance i can pick fresh herb, set the heating mantle to 40 degrees Celsius an then walk away for overnight or even a few days. when i return the herb will be completely dry and the receiving flask is filled with water and some oils.

some alchemists believed this gentle distillation was absolutely necessary for certain things. Hollandus was a fan. I believe it is the core foundation understanding of the text that everytime it says, distill, calcine, burn, put to the flame, baymarie, ect (IMO) are ALL talking about the gentle distillation we see in the alembic and NOTHING else. Not the extreme heats that he is writing about, this is all a trick IMO. Certain forum members probably completely dis-agree with what i said since they consider the workof hollandus to be pyro distillation.

[z0 K]

Alembics are very useful for distilling thingsextremely gently.

For instance i can pick fresh herb, set the heating mantle to 40 degrees Celsius an then walk away for overnight or even a few days. when i return the herb will be completely dry and the receiving flask is filled with water and some oils.

some alchemists believed this gentle distillation was absolutely necessary for certain things. Hollandus was a fan. I believe it is the core foundation understanding of the text that everytime it says, distill, calcine, burn, put to the flame, baymarie, ect (IMO) are ALL talking about the gentle distillation we see in the alembic and NOTHING else. Not the extreme heats that he is writing about, this is all a trick IMO. Certain forum members probably completely dis-agree with what i said since they consider the workof hollandus to be pyro distillation.

Good luck with that assumption about Hollandus not employing destructive distillation in his vegetable work. I will be curious to see what you get in the end without it. You will not get the water, fire or air necessary to make his vegetable stone.

[elixirmixer]

z Ok; i know you have had a lot of success with the hollandus-pyro-plant Stone which is why i said what I said.

However the VERY start of the book; Hollandus explains people who burn their material as "fools" that "destroy the virtue" and makes comments which make me believe that he used pyro distillation only on spicy herbs in order to make alkahests for the metallic kingdom.

HOWEVER; my interpretation is a long shot ill admit and leaves plenty of room to be utterly wrong.

But then explain to me; why does Hollandus make a point of called those who over heat their material fools and then go on to discribe a pyro-distilltion process?

[elixirmixer]

And the "AIR" fraction is simply the early highly volatile vapour; not a dirty yellow tar. IMO.

[z0 K]

And the "AIR" fraction is simply the early highly volatile vapour; not a dirty yellow tar. IMO.

Your assumption about Air is completely wrong. If only you knew what you were talking about, but that would come from actually completing some experiments based on your impulsive tweaks of the old writings you do not understand at all.

[z0 K]

z Ok; i know you have had a lot of success with the hollandus-pyro-plant Stone which is why i said what I said.

However the VERY start of the book; Hollandus explains people who burn their material as "fools" that "destroy the virtue" and makes comments which make me believe that he used pyro distillation only on spicy herbs in order to make alkahests for the metallic kingdom.

HOWEVER; my interpretation is a long shot ill admit and leaves plenty of room to be utterly wrong.

But then explain to me; why does Hollandus make a point of called those who over heat their material fools and then go on to discribe a pyro-distilltion process?

Hollandus calls all his rivals fools. Specifically he disagreed with Paracelsus and Ripley and their followers. You don't seem to have realized that Hollandus gives 5 different ways to prepare the vegetable stone or quintessence. Everyone of them requires destructive distillation to get sulfur, mercury, air, water, fire and earth to make the various processes work.

You do not have an interpretation of Hollandus Vegetable Operas you have a spurious assumation. You actually have to read the whole thing. Then set up some experiments based upon what you think you understand. Run the experiments to see if you have a valid interpretation.

[elixirmixer]

zK0: i have performed pyro distillation. Not a fan of the decomposition processes. Hollandus Vegetable Stone was suppose to cure cancer and transmute metals. Does your pyro stone do that?

I also feel as if I DO understand Hollandus; because when i performed my "assumptions" i ended up with a powerful volatile salt, albeit in tiny tiny quantities, and a bright deep red sulfur. I used corriander. I did not exceed about 80 degrees.

[black]

You actually have to read the whole thing.
Then set up some experiments based upon what you think you understand.
Run the experiments to see if you have a valid interpretation.

@ z0 K

This is such good advice z0 k ... and not just for Mr. Mixer but for all who are
persuing this work of alchemy.

@ Mr. Mixer

I have a feeling that Hollandus's writings can take us down a much deeper
rabbit hole than is first evident. As with the written works of all the old
masters there appears to be many levels of understanding.

As we attain to a level of understanding (proven through our lab) then another level opens with continued reading and lab work.

[elixirmixer]

I also believe it is a very deep drop from the general outline of the text to the deeper operations. For instance; i just finally worked out the Spirit of Salt; which if your not working with it then "you work in vain". Theres lots more I could say but ive mentioned pretty thoroughly my views on the hollandus text elsewhere.

Where i believe it applies here; is that if we look at the very first clues; we see him mentioning that it is foolish to burn away the subtle essences and that those who burn the plant work in vain. He then goes on to describe the work of pyro-distillation; however, when i read the text; and applied my understanding, it did result in a sweet red liquor; quite agreeable. I drank all of it.

It wasnt perfect mind you and because my knowledge of salt volatizing is still quite limited (in that even though i know what to do it just hasnt clicked and i havent succeeded) it was not overlly powerful and only had very minor amounts of volatized salts that were not visible.

But still gave me the same sweet; red liquor that im aure did me some good.

Why are people so hesitant? How do you know im not right if you havent tried? Whilst i have looked into and tried the pyro path and do not find it to be very rich in "therapeutic" substances.

I also watched the z 0K videos; and while very interesting, im not sure that i found it very related to the hollandus text or seemed to follow any type of procedure im familiar with. Not saying its wrong; just saying that i dont really understand exactly what it is the operstor is attempting to do in the videos.

Even with pyro-distillation as a factor; i would still most certainly be regarding Hollandus endless focus on the 4 elements, which ultimatly is the two elements. Mercury-Salt and Sulfur. I didnt see any volatized salts in the zOK work which is why i find it hard to attribute that work with Hollandus text.

Ill go back and read it again now and see if my opinion changes; ill admit i havent peeped through it in a few months now.

[elixirmixer]

For the sake of clarity i have designated z Ok's pyro distillation as "The Dry Path"and my gentle chemical extraction "The Wet path."

I just watched a video again on the dragons breathe which i believe is attributed to Z's work.

Awesome photography of what is clearly a well thought out operation. Im not sure exactly what you re distilling, nevertheless, great close up lens and amazing visuals of the dragons breathe.

I opened this thread as an invitation for us to collectively analyse and study these important texts.

The text I find of most interest is in the AMORC Alchemical manuscript series.

I haven't complied any arguments yet, just setting up my platform now. we are moving in to days so this will be a dragged out process but my min focus of work right now is "The Hand" and is therefore ideal to continue studying this topic because it was my previous topic of study and the two, herbs and salt work, i believe are intimately related.