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Thread: The Hollandus debate: Dry vs Wet

  1. #11
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    Both, plus at least two more.

  2. #12
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    Great thread, EM.

    I have asked z0 K specific questions before but it seems he is not inclined to answer specifics.

    The guy has a magnificent lab, shoots incredible videos, and is well-versed on Alchemical literature (especially Ripley), but he only shares what he is willing to share and will not answer the exceedingly simple direct question "What are you able to accomplish worthwhile?"

    While I agree that z0 K is more practiced than most of us, has more experience, and has contributed many articles in the realm of "Alchemy" than any of us ever will, I still have my doubts as to if z0 K actually knows what he is talking about.

    I do certainly believe he has a firmer grasp than most of us regarding Alchemical principles; I do not believe he has it all figured out or understands as much as he thinks he understands.



    You say, Elixirmixer, that "some alchemists believed this gentle distillation was absolutely necessary for certain things. Hollandus was a fan. I believe it is the core foundation understanding of the text that everytime it says, distill, calcine, burn, put to the flame, baymarie, ect (IMO) are ALL talking about the gentle distillation we see in the alembic and NOTHING else. Not the extreme heats that he is writing about, this is all a trick IMO."

    YES!!! Artephius agrees too.
    "The Secret Book Of Artephius" by Artephius

    It sufficeth thee then to put the bodies in the vessel, and into the water once and for all, and to close the vessel well, until a true separation is made. This the obscure artist calls conjunction, sublimation, assation, extraction, putrefaction, ligation, desponsation, subtilization, generation, etc. Now the whole magistery may be perfected, work, as in the generation of man, and of every vegetable; put the seed once into the womb, and shut it up well. Thus you may see that you need not many things, and that this our work requires no great charges, for that there is but one stone, there is but one medicine, one vessel, one order of working, and one successive disposition to the white and to the red. And although we say in many places, take this, and take that, yet we understand, that it behoves us to take but one thing, and put it once into the vessel, until the work be perfected. But these things are so set down by obscure philosophers to deceive the unwary, as we have before spoken; for is not this "ars cabalistica" or a secret and a hidden art? Is it not an art full of secrets? And believest thou O fool that we plainly teach this secret of secrets, taking our words according to their literal signification? Truly, I tell thee, that as for myself, I am no ways self seeking, or envious as others are; but he that takes the words of the other philosophers according to their common signification, he even already, having lost Ariadne's clue of thread, wanders in the midst of the labyrinth, multiplies errors, and casts away his money for naught.
    In fact, I feel as if this is where most people who practice "Alchemy" sincerely err.
    "The Words Of Father Aristeus To His Son"

    ...the fire must be light, mild, and moist, like that of a hen brooding over her eggs, and it must be sustained in such a manner that it will cook without burning the aerial fruits....
    "Epistle On The Mineral Fire" by Pontanus

    ...Know the propertion of your fire, namely that it is to be no stronger than only to excite the matter....
    z0 K replies, "good luck with that assumption about Hollandus not employing destructive distillation in his vegetable work."

    In my opinion, Hollandus is quite clear about not using too high of heat in his operations, and he also warns that our Work takes a long time and is not to be rushed.
    "De Lapide Philosophorum" by Hollandus

    My child, you must know that in this Art there are many mistakes, especially in the Vegetable Work. It requires much regulating of the fire.

    In addition, much work and time are required for the rectification of the wine; also, much work to make the Water fixed and to keep the spirits from flying away. All that requires a long time, as is known by all who have tried it.

    Further, much work and time are required for the putrefaction and digestion, which have to be handled very delicately with the proper regimen, not too weak and not too strong.

    Also, one has to be cautious at all times to keep the regimen with great care, as many are already well aware.

    If we believe that we have done everything right and that nothing is lacking in the prescribed process, we may yet have been careless and kept the fire too hot or not hot enough, through negligence.

    If we now wish to make a projection with our work and if it does not do what we intended it to do, we therefore do not obtain any benefit from it, and we do not know what may be wrong or how it could have happened, it is still the non-observance of the details of the prescribed manipulation which we have here related.
    "De Lapide Philosophorum" by Hollandus

    This is not done, however, with a strong but with a gentle fire. Then the Corruption of Faces which in the Arca are driven above until everything is black.

    That is why Morienus says: Take care that you regulate your fire in such a way that you do not obtain whiteness before blackness, the albedo before the nigredo, or all your work is spoiled by the whiteness if it occurs before the blackness.

    So it must be a sure method that will drive the Corruption out by fire, and thus must be the purification and Perfection. Be careful in our work for after long and steady boiling the heat consumes the Corruption, faeces and blackness, and changes it into another color, and ever another until it is perfectly white like snow. And it is done gently, so that the elements are not forced, but are gently rectified.
    From the videos z0 K posted we are lead to believe that z0 K accomplished his "vegetable stone" in a relatively short period of time, a couple of weeks or a few months.

    Fire that Hollandus talks about is not elemental fire (heat). Although external fire (heat) is needed to excite the internal Fire (our Fire) it is evident to me that Hollandus is speaking Philosophically; therefore we are to understand--as the Ancients have pointed out time and time again--that our Fire is not fire (heat) as we know it but something else entirely, something that embodies the characteristics of fire but is not actual fire. Artephius refers to this Fire as our secret Fire.
    "The Secret Book Of Artephius" by Artephius

    ...our secret fire, that is, our fiery and sulphureous water...
    Theodorus Mundanus reiterates this point
    "The Quintessence Of The Philosophers" by Mundanus

    ...as it is the highest Mystery of Nature, so it is the greatest Secret of the Philosophers: The fire of the peripatetics is dry; but that of the Hermetic Philosophers is Moist: The common people calcine and burn with a culinary fire, we with a clear and Chrystalline Liquor; for our fire is a sulphureous water...
    George Ripley verifies it
    "Medulla Alchimae" by Ripley

    ...Innatural or Preternatural Fire, is a thing accidental, as Heat in an Ague, being made Artifically, and called by the Philosophers a moist Fire, Our generating Water...
    From the quotes above we know that our Fire is a liquid substance that has the same characteristics of common fire yet is not visible fire, flame, or heat.

    z0 K says, "you do not have an interpretation of Hollandus Vegetable Operas you have a spurious assumation. You actually have to read the whole thing."

    Yet if z0 K would have read the whole thing he would not have missed the quote below about his supposed "vegetable stone" not being the real Vegetable Stone if it does not carry out the miraculous things the Vegetable Stone actually does!

    Elixirmixer, wonderful conclusion with an excellent question, "I also watched the z0 K videos; and while very interesting, im not sure that i found it very related to the hollandus text or seemed to follow any type of procedure im familiar with. Not saying its wrong; just saying that i dont really understand exactly what it is the operstor is attempting to do in the videos. Hollandus Vegetable Stone was suppose to cure cancer and transmute metals. Does your pyro stone do that?"

    "A Work Of Saturn" by Hollandus

    This Stone cures all Leprous people, Plague, and all Diseases which may reign upon Earth, or befall Mankind; this is the true Aurum potable, and the true Quintessence which the Ancients sought; this is that thing whereof the whole Troop of Philosophers speak so wondrously, using all possible skill to conceal it's Name and Operation, as aforesaid.

    Take of this Stone the quantity of a Wheat-corn, lay it in a little good Wine in a small Glass, half full, or a quarter full, make the Wine warm, the Stone will melt like Butter, and the Wine will be red as Blood, and very sweet in your mouth, as ever you tasted; for to speak comparatively, it is so sweet in taste that Honey and Sugar may be compared as Gall to it; give this unto the Patient to drink, lay him in Bed, but lay not too many clothes upon him, the Stone hastens forthwith to the heart, expelling thence all ill humours, thence dilating itself through all the Arteries and Veins of the whole Body, rousing up all humours, the party will sweat, for the Stone opens all the pores of the Body, and drives forth all humours thereby, so that the Patient will seem to have been in the Water, yet will this sweating not make him sicker, for the Stone expels only what is adverse to Nature, preserving what is consonant unto it in it's being, therefore the Patient is not sicker or weaker; but the more he sweats the stronger and lustier will he be, the Veins will be lighter, and the sweat continues till all evil humours be driven out of the Body, and then it ceases.

    The next day you shall take of it the quantity of a Wheat-corn, in warm Wine again, you will go to stool immediately, and that will not cease so long as you have anything in your Body which is contrary to Nature, and the more Stools the Patient hath, the stronger and lighter at heart will he be; for the Stone drives nothing forth but what is adverse and prejudicial to Nature.

    The third day give the like quantity in warm Wine, as aforesaid; it will so fortify the Veins and Heart, that the party will not think himself to be a Man, but rather a Spirit, all his members will be so light and lively, & if the party will take the like quantity of a Wheat-corn every day for the space of nine days, I tell you, his Body will be as spiritual as if he had been nine days in the terrestrial Paradise, eating every day of the Fruit, making him fair, lusty and young; therefore use this Stone weekly, the quantity of a Wheat-corn with warm Wine, so shall you live in health unto the last hour of the time appointed for you by God.

    He shall be loved and esteemed of all people, for he can cure them all internally and externally of all Diseases which may befall them; but if the Stone doth not so, it is false, and deserves not the name of the Vegetable Stone.

  3. #13
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    I wonder myself, with the "regulation of heat," if we are casting modern notions about heat onto what we see. A "moist" fire to me suggests vapor. The easiest way to "regulate" the fire since Hermes stole it from the gods has been with water. Water limits your maximum temperature so long as there is sufficient quantity, but care must be taken as it boils off, and ingenuity (BM) to ensure that the flowers don't burn.

    EDIT: I'm not agreeing that Z is wrong or mistaken, nor am I taking up with EM, just to be clear. None of these texts give the answer freely, and to think they do means assuming every alchemist before you was an idiot for not figuring out the puzzle before you did. I'm open to dry-distillation and it's possible effects. Hell, I'm still in awe with what can be accomplished from simple spagyric mixes. I also have another experiment I intend to run once the time is available freely to me to do so, and it regards neither theory, nor EM's sweating of moisture. None of us, as far as I know, have produced the stone, though we've all seen glimpses of possibility. Best to keep the options open.

    ~DT

  4. #14
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    I don't know exactly what Z is doing, but it looks and sounds like a super-spirit-charged spagyric.

    In "canonical" alchemy, we do not use "common" fire (or "common" anything, for that matter), except for the occasional "cheat" at the beginning of the work, when we collect "our" water (see for example devices such as the Bacstrom or R+C setups), wherein we convert the invisible "Secret Fire" (present in in the air/space) into a tangible water.

    This water is what we then use as "our" fire. No sophisticated distillations are required (neither "wet" nor "dry"), no retorts, no alembics, etc... I know this is a cliche, but I'll say it again... It's all basically "Dissolve & Coagulate", from beginning to end (?).

    We can find a somewhat relevant (non-alchemical) parallel in the world of metallurgy - like the annealing process in sword-making, for example (but with "common" fire). However, the greatest master sword-makers are able to anneal their swords almost to a level where those are "enspirited". Swords that have a "soul", etc... (Ishay, this one's for you ) Could it be that the master sword-makers have knowledge of "our" water?

    I don't know about the Dry Path, but it it also sounds to me quite similar in principle to the aforementioned annealing process.

    "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

    But I digress... Maybe I'll elaborate more on another thread, at another time...


  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    This water is what we then use as "our" fire. No sophisticated distillations are required (neither "wet" nor "dry"), no retorts, no alembics, etc... I know this is a cliche, but I'll say it again... It's all basically "Dissolve & Coagulate", from beginning to end (?).
    I think the answer is buried in this statement, but not necessarily at first glance

  6. #16
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    That was beautiful Andro. Thank you. On behalf of everyone else i mean. I have already thanked you for this personally; but i think that post is the most clear definition of alchemy ive ever read and could strip decades off a persons search for alchemical truth.

    Mavelous truly; and I suppose the scriptures were destined to be fullfilled.

    "All hidden things, will be revealed"

    And certainly there are deep things in what Andro said DT; but please oh oh OH please do not overlook the straightforward meaning of what Andro has just shared with you. In fact; meditate on it relentlessly.
    Join me; on a voyage of stupidity, and self discovery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=vccZSHroTG4

  7. #17
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    Trash talk is easy and effortless. Off your asses and get to work if you want a response from me.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by z0 K View Post
    Trash talk is easy and effortless. Off your asses and get to work if you want a response from me.
    Hi z0 K,

    Just in case your response was (also) directed towards me:

    1. There was absolutely no intention of "trash talk". I genuinely apologize if it was perceived as such. My comments referred to what is generally considered "canonical" alchemy. This doesn't exclude or invalidate other paths.

    2. I AM working, not just talking. What I wrote is from experience, although not all the way to the "Consumatum Est"

    3. I haven't asked you any questions, because my approach to lab work is very different from yours.

    I with you success in your endeavors!

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by elixirmixer View Post
    please do not overlook the straightforward meaning of what Andro has just shared
    Correct. It was very straightforward indeed.

  10. #20
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    OK, Andro.

    You should probably explain what you mean by "cannonical" alchemy and how that differs from classical alchemy and spagyria. Then you will have to explain what you mean by "Secret Fire" and distinguish that from Elemental Fire and Fire against Nature. And since everyone knows what common fire is explain to them how common fire relates to Elemental Fire and Secret Fire and Fire against Nature.

    Also it would be helpful if you posted some photos ”wherein we convert the invisible 'Secret Fire' (present in the air/space) into a tangible water." Then explain the nature of the Fire in that Water. No cheating allowed.

    Maybe you should elaborate now. I certainly have detailed an alchemical process from beginning to end. And for the trash mongers here the easiest way to trash me is to follow the procedure and demonstrate it does not work.

    From what I see here Andro, you are talking and not working. However I see no need for you to be trashed here which will happen if you reveal any details of your lab work.

    Personally I don't give a shit what the demonstrably foolish have to heckle about. I did not detail the processes for the lazy dilettantes.

    This thread is a farce. There is no Hollandus debate here, Wet or Dry.

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