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Thread: The Paradox of Tolerance

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    And I did not say that I think Awani is a hedonist!
    No, you didn't say... But you obliquely implied it... LOL... More Psycho-Semantics

    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    But if it suits entertainment purposes I'm in the ring
    There's no business like show business. Sometimes I feel it's the ONLY business...

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    No, you didn't say... But you obliquely implied it... LOL... More Psycho-Semantics
    If you consider the differentiation of what a person says from that what a person is as psycho-semantics, then maybe you are projecting in accusing me obliquely implying.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    If you consider the differentiation of what a person says from that what a person is as psycho-semantics, then maybe you are projecting in accusing me obliquely implying.
    Implication by association with words said in the quotation

    The chances of systemic collapse increase with the system's complexity!!!

    OK, this particular playtime is over for me. Thanks to all the participants!

    Now I gotta go and (hedonistically) enjoy my life with some work

  4. #24
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    Do that!
    And sorry for having triggered an obviously unconvenient issue.

  5. #25
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    Human beings is a microcosm of the macrocosm. We are supposed to be creators and mirror whatever created us (evolution, biology, god, chance... doesn't matter). Creativity is what fuel our evolution, it is what made us become sentient beings. The earliest finds of human activity are all based in creative efforts. To create is a pleasure.

    So we are all inherent artists. Those that are not creating anything, or those that are not doing any form of art... are all dead inside out. Creation is also part of love, and love always creates more artists (offspring). Life and death is a ciricle of creation and destruction, and desctrucion can be an equally powerful creator... but there is a difference in natural destruction and human destruction, the latter often leads to creative restrictions.

    But intolerance and hate and fear are dead pursuits... such path are always born from an inherent apathy or lack of creativity... because a truly creative mind cannot be a narrow mind. A narrow mind is usually not hateful, fearful or intolerant.

    If YOU call this hedonism, call it that.

    I call it Living Alchemy.

    Note: those that have a gloomy outlook on life, or lack of vision, or zero inspiration, or full of defeat, or full of paranoia and fear... and afraid to enjoy life and relish in both joy and sadness equally... those people are the race of gargantuan fucks that is sending out the energy that is ruining this pleasure ride for the rest of us. So as I said before, people should just shut up and sit down and relax.

    Contemporary society is a triggered, offended and outraged society full of hypocrisy where every citizen is part of the world-wide problem of hunger, war and poverty. If everyone made sure EVERYONE had a good life there is PLENTY to go around. I have moved beyond any form of -ism, agenda, perspective, group mentality or whatever you want to call it... right now there is only TWO kinds of people in this world.

    Artists and Gargantuan Fucks.



    * you can work as a janitor and still be an artist... it is an archetype...
    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.


  6. #26
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    In order to be able to be creative, one first has to take care of certain other needs that are located further towards the bottom of Maslow's pyramid:



    Being in the convenient (super)position of living in a well developed country can lead to falsly distort things up a bit. For example the wrong impression that people of former times were living in a kind of creative paradise of love and creativity.

    In contrary, all evidences indicate that man never lived in harmony with nature. Man died in harmony with nature.

    Romanticising death as well is only possible when living in such a superposition. Before the industrial revolution, 5 out of 7 children, which was the average amount of children a woman gave birth to then, died. That wasn't romantic, that was terrible! Even in the first half of the 20th century in europe, one out of five children died. Still a tragedy to all participants, including my grandmother and mother.

    The possibility of being an artist, or doing what one wants to do, especially without the necessity of persistence or sacrifice of any kind, is only possible when living in a kind of society that makes sure that such kind of life is possible! With other people working hard and having non-fulfilling jobs like the garbage collection for 40 years, which someone has to do in order that others/more priviliged or better educated members of society can strive for self-fulfillment.

    That counts for societies nowadays and in the past. Besides, it's the same kind of societies some of those "artists" are repeatingly insulting like spoiled brats.

    BTW, I'm including native/indigenous populations who can peacefully live, because their natural surrounding always provided everything they need in abundance, like for example some who are living in the rainforest. But even those knew war, miss harvests and rape like the native tribes of north and south america, africa, asia. Exceptions are possible but absolutely rare. Again the general living of natives too is often romanticised in western minds. Just think for example about the widely spread practice of female castration in africa and tell the girl the dude that's enjoying doing this to her is immanently creative!

    And it never was that way for most of the people in the past. There was no poor romantic alchemists in the past, because poor people (>90% of the population in europe) were more concerned to work hard so that their families can survive next winter. Alchemists were people who could effort it and could read and write (also very rare).

    And so it is still the case with most of world's population today and you know that when you for example think about the poor children digging for conflict minerals so that western children can play with their mobile phones. Tell those kids something about looking forward to die.

    And no, I'm not saying society is doing everything allright, we all have to work hard until we die, obey what politicians say and all that black/white thinking. And I really like most kinds of art very very much! But some perspectives seem to be rather narrow-minded to me.

    Of course we had to pay a price for our bigger lifespan, the increase of child survivors, cars, airplanes, washing machines and medicine.
    But I bet every kid in the Kongo is willing to pay it too, if that means it can live like a western kid, be creative and can romanticise death because of it's almost total absence in society.

    So yes, considering all this, I really think that if one is saying that

    Quote Originally Posted by Awani
    Humans should just shut the fuck up, sit down and concentrate on enjoying their life and making sure anyone they come in contact with is enjoying their life
    it's hedonistic.

    I know though that you know something about I was talking above. So I can't derive that you are a hedonistic person from that sentence of yours. Even if Andro thinks he knows I am meaning the opposite.
    Last edited by Florius Frammel; 11-29-2018 at 09:17 PM.

  7. #27
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    LOL. Your entire post is, from my perspective, a projection. I clearly did not convey what I meant when I wrote about creativity. Also there is a lot of focus on Western bias/perspective. You have no idea about my bias/perspective. Perhaps not directed toward me, but I assume you assumed I would read your reply.

    Maslow is wrong. IMO.

    I am so tired of hearing about the ”romantic argument”. Heard all arguments before, and I don’t need to explain further. Everyone is responsible for their own ignorance even I.

    I still think you’re way off. You replied to a post I did not write. So either you cannot read, or I cannot write.

    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.


  8. #28
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    If we already actually reached this point, then indeed it is of no use to reasonably argue with claims, examples, quotes, researches any further.

    You are wrong. IMO.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    While "enjoyment", "pleasure" and "hedonism" may well be spread along the same continuum, they are definitely at different degrees
    In spite of it seems that we might have different viewpoints in this discussion, I like this way of thinking.

  10. #30
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    How about we micro-cosmically zoom in a bit more into the question posed by this thread...

    Should an tolerant person tolerate their own intolerance?

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