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Thread: Historical Relation Between Vampires & Alchemy

  1. #1

    Historical Relation Between Vampires & Alchemy

    This is a Phoenix-thread from the old site.

    This is something I've been considering for the past few months, but I believe some of the legends of immortal blood drinking vampires are actually allusions to alchemy & the Philosopher's Stone.

    It's said that vampires need blood to live, and as we all know blood is red. When the Philosopher's Stone is added to water it dissolves and turns the water into a deep red liquid. This water/stone solution has the ability to extend life to any individual that consumes it, just like the legend of drinking blood to gain life. Maybe there is a connection between the two, but I cannot be sure.

    This is all just merely speculation on my part, and maybe I'm being too haste in drawing a parallel between the two, but I believe there may be some truth in this matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by deviadah
    Yes, a very interesting connection that I don't think can be proved or disproved.

    The famed Comte de Saint Germain is an alchemist than in recent times have figured as a vampire in a series of books (which I must say I have not read).

    I can also add this into the mix:
    Blood is the first incarnation of the universal fluid; it is the materialized ‘vital light’. Its birth is the most marvellous of all nature’s marvels; it lives only by perpetually transforming itself, for it is the universal Proteus. The blood issues from principles where there was none of it before, and it becomes flesh, bones, hair, nails… tears, and perspiration. It can be allied neither to corruption nor death; when life is gone, it begins decomposing; if you know how to reänimate it, to infuse into it life by a new magnetization of its globules, life will return again. The universal substance, with its double motion, is the great arcanum of being; blood is the great arcanum of life. - Éliphas Lévi
    Now Lévi is not a alchemist directly, but as I consider the art of magic(k) to be a spawn of the art of alchemy I feel the above quote is relevant enough!
    Quote Originally Posted by BeautifulEvil
    The famed Comte de Saint Germain is an alchemist than in recent times have figured as a vampire in a series of books (which I must say I have not read).
    This sounds interesting, and I might have to check it out. Do you know the name of the series?

    Good quote, and nicely said. Lévi was a great occultist in the eyes of many, and I'm sure he knew a secret or two in regards to alchemy.

    A side note: whenever I first begin alchemy I thought the Prima Materia for the work was blood, but after much research and countless hours I realized it wasn't blood at all - something VERY different!
    Quote Originally Posted by deviadah
    Website of the book series: Saint Germain the Vampire

    But I prefer to study the real Saint Germain!

    Most Holy Trinosophia, The by Comte de Saint-Germain
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunderic Mollusk
    Vampires are a pretty intricate topic.

    One of the key things on vampires comes from the "scapegoat" function, when elements would go awry, or have no current rational explanation, and thus a folkloric irrational explanation would come about. For most of history, vampires were little more than revenants that would... well revenate, from some mistake made during burial or a "dark nature" in life. Exhumed, the funcitons of decomposition, such as blood rising to the surface of the flesh and bloat, would seem to the uneducated to be signs of engorging on some substance, and the blood on the lips would of course lead them to believe that "Hey, they must drink blood!"

    It wasn't until the story "Lord Ruthven" was penned that vampirism became a communicable disease, and then in response to the other disease scares of the time.

    In recent times, RPG nerds everywhere would recognize how vampirism would once again revise itself as a secret ruling society, much in the way that we fear the faceless heads of corporations and governments, and the connections between them.

    The folkloric spirit of vampirism seems almost to be a void of soul, an anti-type to the ensouled sorceror that endures hardship and weakness to understand Nature and find the Lapis for the benefit of mankind. One big difference is that until Daniel Radcliffe, Rupert Grint, and Emma Watson in the later Harry Potter movies grew into a broody adulthood, wizards, Alchemy, and magic hadn't any mainstream sex appeal, while the screaming antitypes had it since the Victorian era (of course, we have actual people delving into strange spirit stuff. Thus far, I'm not certain that we have non-respirating beings wandering among us.)

    In a way, vampirism can also be something similar to Shiva Bhairava, a ghoulish fang-mawed aspect of the Mahadeva that represents the brahmin-killer role as Rudra in the Rg Veda. It's a necessary understanding and acceptance of hideous pathways of life that although personally destructive bring coherence to the whole.

    Thus far, it seems a symbol rich with many many meanings. Woo!
    Quote Originally Posted by deviadah
    You raise some interesting points there.

    I wonder if it would not be cool to write a thesis (or book) called something like The Alchemcial Vampire

    I have been thinking that joint efforts like this could be interesting, and the end result a PDF on the main site (and of course in the resource sections).
    Quote Originally Posted by BeautifulEvil
    I was reading a post on abrahadabra forums made by deviadah about Vlad Tepes & Serotonin/Melotonin and I found it to be interesting and in a sense it relates to this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by deviadah
    People with an excessive amount of melatonin are unfavourable towards sunlight (a clue to the formation of the Dracula of Stokers novel perhaps). Vlad Tepes, the real Dracula, attended the Austrian School of Solomon in Hermannstadt which gave him scientific understanding of the bodily effects of melatonin and serotonin, which enhance longevity and increase consciousness. Perhaps he even experimented with his pineal gland trying to open his Third Eye in a dark twist of creativity envisaging new forms of torture?

    Vlad Tepes would also in time possess an in-depth knowledge of alchemy, kingship and the ancient Star fire customs and one day follow his father’s footsteps becoming initiated into the Order of the Dragon.
    The more I think about the relation between vampires, alchemy, and immortality the more I realize there might be some truth in our ponderings.

  2. #2
    I wasn't very clear in my original posts and didn't reference any source materials in making my assertions, but I will try and clear that up now.

    Source: A Work of Saturn by Johann Isaac Hollandus

    Take of this Stone the quantity of a Wheat-corn, lay it in a little good Wine in a small Glass, half full, or a quarter full, make the Wine warm, the Stone will melt like Butter, and the Wine will be red as Blood, and very sweet in your mouth, as ever you tasted; for to speak comparatively, it is so sweet in taste that Honey and Sugar may be compared as Gall to it; give this unto the Patient to drink, lay him in Bed, but lay not too many clothes upon him, the Stone hastens forthwith to the heart, expelling thence all ill humours, thence dilating itself through all the Arteries and Veins of the whole Body, rousing up all humours, the party will sweat, for the Stone opens all the pores of the Body, and drives forth all humours thereby, so that the Patient will seem to have been in the Water, yet will this sweating not make him sicker, for the Stone expels only what is adverse to Nature, preserving what is consonant unto it in it's being, therefore the Patient is not sicker or weaker; but the more he sweats the stronger and lustier will he be, the Veins will be lighter, and the sweat continues till all evil humours be driven out of the Body, and then it ceases.
    Take a Drachm of the Stone, seeth it in a pottle of Wine in a Glass, the space of two or three Pater-nosters, that the Stone may melt, the Wine will be as red as Blood, therewith wash the Sores morning and evening, laying a thin Plate of Lead over, in a short time, as in twelve days the Sores will be whole; and give him every day the quantity of a Wheat-corn, in warm Wine till he be well. If they be Fistulas or other concave Holes, that you cannot come at them to wash them, then take a Silver Syringe, and inject of that wine into them, it will heal them as aforesaid.
    I'm also sure the change would still happen if the wine were to be replaced with water. Also, if people were to watch an individual drink this solution it would seem to them that they were actually drinking blood. We also have to consider that the myths of vampires arose during the dark ages when knowledge and reason had became lost to ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by deviadah
    Yeah, it is all very interesting. All myths come from something that holds some form of truth - even Vampires. These days the Psy-Vampire has developed as subsitute for that more unreal Bram Stoker version.

    Yet both hold secret keys I think... and it sure is a Saturnian creature!

    The Lord Impaler by deviadah
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunderic Mollusk
    Here's the primary issue: Vampires weren't really romanticized until Stoker and company began penning their tales. Mostly, the early vampir, revenants, strigoi, and so on were all recently deceased in peasant villages, all with graves readily available to dig up and perform the proper rites to dispense of the vampire or placate the spirit. They were, in fact, red in color (from skin slippage) and full of blood (from bloat).

    While Vlad was a terrifying figure, Bram's use of him was more akin to, say, using the archetype of Josef Stalin or Grigori Rasputin as a supernatural entity. (I'm hard pressed to say that the latter wasn't, but far be it for me to say what that wondrous madman might have become in his life).
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunderic Mollusk
    However, I can say that the combination of the Dracula figure with the folkloric vampire has created something of a modern godhead. One can easily find a place in their consciousness for the same dangerous, alien sexuality that Dracula, the Three Sisters, and others espouse. Dracula is a god, in a weird way, truth aside about a crazed prince who opposed the Turks for a massive period of time, or bloated peasant corpses who become the scapegoats for onsets of disease in a community.
    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHydralisk
    "He seizes her ferociously, places her as I was placed, arms
    suspended by two black straps; mine is the task of securing the bands;
    he inspects the knots: finding them too loose, he tightens them, "So
    that," he says, "the blood will spurt out under greater pressure"; he
    feels the veins, and lances them, on each arm, at almost the same
    moment. Blood leaps far: he is in an ecstasy; and adjusting himself
    so that he has a clear view of these two fountains, he has me kneel
    between his legs so I can suck
    him; he does as much for first one and
    then the other of his little friends, incessantly eyeing the jets of
    blood which inflame him. For my part, certain the instant at which
    the hoped for crisis occurs will bring a conclusion to the Countess'
    torments, I bring all my efforts to bear upon precipitating this
    denouement, and I become, as, Madame, you observe, I become a whore
    from kindness, a libertine through virtue."


    - Justine Marquis De Sade
    ahem

    More on topic, I have been pretty light sensitive since May, and my third eye has been absolutely pulsating non-stop...I seem to have the ability to turn it on and off at will, with the slightest thought, and I find that absolutely thrilling to have accomplished....and I did notice hallucinations for a period of 3 weeks beginning precisely at twilight and dusk, which correlates with the properties of melatonin, though it is some unverified research that counts the pineal gland as producing hallucinogenic substances.

    I *have* been mulling over your pine cone thread Deviadah.

    I put together some research over at Occult Forums which, unfortunately was glossed over by a heated mud slinging session courtesy of Scarlet, should fare better here, as we all know vampires are not just about blood, they've also been mutating into some sort of night creature that is more attuned to all kinds of spiritual forces in modern times, largely thanks to Anne Rice, as well as the Vampire theatre game. (speaking of which, the former vampire troupe I used to hang with at The Dungeon tackled me at Target yesterday and invited me to a vampire xmas party)

    "The pineal gland was originally believed to be a "vestigial remnant" of a larger organ (much as the appendix is thought to be a vestigial digestive organ).
    Aaron Lerner and colleagues at Yale University discovered that melatonin, the most potent compound then known to lighten frog skin, was present in the highest concentrations in the pineal [7]. Melatonin is a derivative of the amino acid tryptophan, which also has other functions in the central nervous system. The production of melatonin by the pineal gland is stimulated by darkness and inhibited by light. [8] The retina detects the light, and directly signals and entrains the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN). Fibers project from the SCN to the paraventricular nuclei (PVN), which relay the circadian signals to the spinal cord and out via the sympathetic system to superior cervical ganglia (SCG), and from there into the pineal gland. The function(s) of melatonin in humans is not clear."

    - Wikipedia

    I recall that most of my really major trancework stemming from electrical charges in my pineal gland area did in fact take place at dusk....

    "In his book DMT: The Spirit Molecule, Dr. Rick Strassman theorized that the pineal gland produces the psychedelic chemical DMT[9], but this has not been proven."

    - Wikipedia

    That's interesting, I wonder if there's anything to that.

    "The pineal gland is large in children, but shrinks at puberty. It appears to play a major role in sexual development, hibernation in animals, metabolism, and seasonal breeding. The abundant melatonin levels in children is believed to inhibit sexual development, and pineal tumors have been linked with precocious puberty. When puberty arrives, melatonin production is reduced. Calcification of the pineal gland is typical in adults.

    [...]

    René Descartes, who dedicated much time to the study of the pineal gland,[15] called it the "seat of the soul" [16]. He believed that is was the point of connection between the intellect and the body [citation needed]. This was in part because of his belief that it is unique in the anatomy of the human brain in being a structure not duplicated on the right and left sides. This observation is not true, however; under a microscope one finds the pineal gland is divided into two fine hemispheres. Another theory was that the pineal operated as a valve releasing fluids, thus the position taken during deep thought, with the head slightly down meeting the hand, was an allowance for the opening of these 'valves'."
    "When I carefully seek out, in deepest anguish, some strange absurdity, an eye opens at the top, in the middle of my skull. This eye opening up onto the sun in all its glory, to contemplate it in itsnakedness, privately, is not the work of my reason: it is a cry escaping from me. For at the moment when the flash blinds me I am the splintering brilliance of a shattered life, and this life - agony and vertigo - opening up onto an infinite void, bursts and exhausts itself all at once in this void.""

    - Georges Baittaille
    "Melatonin, 5-methoxy-N-acetyltryptamine, is a hormone found in all living creatures from algae[1] to humans, at levels that vary in a daily cycle. Many biological effects of melatonin are produced through activation of melatonin receptors,[2] while others are due to its role as a pervasive and extremely powerful antioxidant[3] with a particular role in the protection of nuclear and mitochondrial DNA.[4]"
    "Mitochondria are sometimes described as "cellular power plants," because they generate most of the cell's supply of adenosine triphosphate (ATP), used as a source of chemical energy. In addition to supplying cellular energy, mitochondria are involved in a range of other processes, such as cell signaling, cellular differentiation, apoptosis, as well as the control of the cell cycle and cell growth.[2 The number of mitochondria in a cell varies widely by organism and tissue type. Many cells possess only a single mitochondrion, whereas others can contain several thousand mitochondria.[3][4]"

    "Under certain conditions, protons can re-enter the mitochondrial matrix without contributing to ATP synthesis. This process is known as proton leak or mitochondrial uncoupling and is due to the facilitated diffusion of protons into the matrix. This process results in the unharnessed potential energy of the proton electrochemical gradient being released as heat. The process is mediated by a proton channel called thermogenin,"

    - Wikipedia
    Quote Originally Posted by deviadah
    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHydralisk
    That's interesting, I wonder if there's anything to that.
    Oh, it sure is.

    Sadly little work is done in this area by the scientific community since DMT is illegal, which is fuckin' stupid!

    It is also a reason why I don't think humans need drugs to expand their mind, although it can be helpful with all these distractions of modern life. But most of the time I advise people not to take drugs because the rewards are greater if a higher state of being can be achieved with willpower and imagination alone.

    When speaking of drugs here I am of course talking about Peyote, LSD, Mushrooms i.e. drugs that are designed to open the third eye... alcohol and coke, for instance, just shuts it up like a govermental crackdown!

    Although a joint can be nice after work...



    Glad you like the Pine posts...
    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHydralisk
    rofl

    Well, Ningishzidda is a god of vegetation, you know....and Hermes is obviously on something....


    Mescaline (in peyote form) is actually legal in the native american church, I was asking my mom about that earlier since she has connections in the region. She's always trying to get me to do some.

    hahah

    I won't, the witchdoctors are as far as I'll tolerate her meddling in my spiritual life...these poor parents and their advanced godlike children...it's a necessity really, you can't bring down a wall without a few detonation specialists.
    Quote Originally Posted by taceyoto
    Interesting TOpic, I took a college class on paranormal and the supernatural, a topic covered was vampirism, and the source of all vampirism apparently ( according to the text used which was Monsters by David Allen Greer) was in EGYPT...imagine that...

  3. #3
    Wow, now that is interesting!

    Could you tell us some more?
    Quote Originally Posted by taceyoto
    Well acording to the text I read, the earliest "symtpoms'' of vampirism were exhibited in Ancient Egypt when the Ba and the Ka escaped the body, one looked like a bird andthe other like the human soul, the human soul would look for offerenings to survive ( why they buried food with thier dead) and with no offerings they would prey on human energy. the first "vampire" was the first mummy ever, said to have been mummified by Anubis himself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunderic Mollusk
    Revenants, however, are sort of a worldwide phenomena, usually spurring out of fears around plagues, as most early folk didn't quite understand microbial life as the source of infection. If we take a look at the European literature about vampires not in romantic fiction, drinking blood was an afterthought, and most general misfortune would be blamed on some form of restless dead, yet rather than unhappy ancestors, this was a malevolent individual who had recently passed on, in order that they be dug up and subsequently have their corpse mutilated in a series of ridiculous ways. Every culture has some Oogeyboogey that makes life difficult, and many involve some bizarre funerary rites to keep the dead from returning to wreak havok.
    Quote Originally Posted by deviadah
    For the info of others:
    A revenant is a visible ghost or animated corpse that that was believed to return from the grave to terrorize the living. The word "revenant" is derived from the French, revenir, "to return", and shares etymology with "revenue". Belief in revenants emerged in Western Europe (especially Great Britain, and later carried by Anglo-Norman invaders to Ireland) during the High Middle Ages. Though later legend and folklore depicts revenants as returning for a specific purpose (e.g., revenge against the deceased's killer), in most Medieval depictions they simply return to harass their surviving families and neighbours. Revenants share a number of characteristics with folkloric vampires.

    Many stories were documented by English historians in the Middle Ages. William of Newburgh wrote in the 1190s, "one would not easily believe that corpses come out of their graves and wander around, animated by I don't know what spirit, to terrorize or harm the living, unless there were many cases in our times, supported by ample testimony". Stories of revenants were very personal, always about a specific individual who had recently died (unlike the anonymous zombie depicted in modern popular culture, such as Night of the Living Dead), and had a number of common features. - source
    On a sidenote the best vampire film (in my opinion) is Dreyer's Vampyr: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtKHSGLbTuY

    Vampyr (the whole film, but not the best quality)

    But of course this is a classic too: Nosferatu
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunderic Mollusk
    Quickly becoming a favorite of mine are the draugar of Scandinavia, where the ambulatory corpse grows immensely in size and crushes its victims. A few sagas had a draugr as the primary adversary.
    Quote Originally Posted by deviadah
    Ok... never heard about them before.

    Wikipedia: Draugr

    In fact I thought I'd might recognize the word if I saw it in Swedish, but I don't!

    They sound cool though!

    Quote Originally Posted by spectre
    Since I just stumbled on this homepage of the "The Kemetic Order of Aset Ka" http://www.asetka.org/ -
    I thought I might put it here in this related thread.

    (Kemetic = Egyptian, Ka = Essence or Soul, Aset = Isis)

    They (or at least the author of the homepage and the "Asetian Bible".. not sure how many members are in this cult) claim to be an "elitist secret vampire society" from the times of Egypt. Since it's about "psychic vampirism" I don't think there's any blood involved. Interestingly, they associate themselves with Spiritual Alchemy

    "Development and enlightenment is a slow and enduring process of the Asetian journey through life. This metaphysical initiation is a system of transmutation. By this pure and deep change, it is meant that the Asetian achieves to alter in form, appearance and nature, which is a manifestation of the force of the Violet Flame itself. This transmutation, deeply connected with the vampiric birth, represents the alchemical nature of the Asetian soul, ever changing and eternal. According to this, we can establish the Asetians as the alchemists of the soul, creators and destroyers, catalysts of change and evolution, with the power to transform lead into gold. Asetians are the givers of life, the pillars of the subtle existence, owners of the breath of immortality."
    However, on closer look, this group (or just book author) seems very narrow minded and not truly alchemical. They claim to be only for an "elitist few" and to possess the secrets to immortality. They also claim to be the only ones to have gained immortality (I don't think Alchemical and Daoist tradition would agree) and that only "asetian souls" are indestructible, i.e. that other, non-asetian, souls will decompose like the physical body. That's obviously ridiculous (besides not even in agreement with Kemetic religion they claim to follow)... I have never heard that the Astral+ Planes are only pack-filled with "Asetian psychic vampires". It sounds more that they're lying or delusional to make followers believe more blindly and to claim stronger authority; it's a very old trick and every major religion does it (Christian by claiming Jesus = God authority, Islam by claiming Muhammed = God's Final Prophet, Judaism by claiming Jews = God's Chosen People....and all the Abrahamic religions disagree). So, in my personal opinion, this seems like just another blind religion with a different masquerade and slightly different version of the same old authoritarian creed. What I can intuit so far their main-work actually involves is a type of Black Magick/Black Tantra which involves negative psychic energies and demonolatry (although unconventional), especially in forms of succubacy/incubacy. Neither their work, which would be a distraction from alchemy, nor their narrow-minded theories seem relatively useful; I'm not sure of what use vampirism is to alchemists, except to study these things to have knowledge of mechanisms of demonology or psychic problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by spectre
    I believe this information about Blood, Alchemy and Nicholas Flamel is of more interest...

    Nicholas Flamel was in possession of an alchemical work by "Abraham the Jew" which contained five symbolic images, here's a description of the last one:
    On the reverse side appeared a king carrying a great faulchion who caused his soldiers to destroy in his presence a multitude of little children, the mothers weeping at the feet of the murderers. The streams of blood were gathered by other soldiers into a great vessel, wherein the sun and moon bathe.
    You can find a picture here: Nicholas Flamel: Hieroglyphics (Alchemy) and quoted text from Alchemy Rediscovered and Restored

    Flamel asked a man named Master Anselme ("who was a Licentiate in Medicine, and studied hard in this Art") about this picture who told him:

    The feet of this substance could not be cut off, meaning that it could not be fixed and so deprived of volatility except by such long decoction in the pure blood of young children. The quicksilver uniting with gold and silver in this blood would change with them, firstly into a herb like that of the fair flower on the teverse of the fourth leaf, secondly by corruption into serpents, which serpents, being dried and digested by fire, would become Powder of Gold, and of such in truth is the Stone.
    Flamel further notes:

    This explanation sent me astray through a labyrinth of innumerable false processes for a period of one and twenty years, it being always understood that I made no experiments with the blood of children, for that I accounted villainous.
    Nicholas Flamel unveiled the symbolism of blood to represent the spirit of metals (maybe because blood represents vitality)

    Moreover, I found in my book that what the philosophers called blood is the mineral spirit in metals, more especially in gold, silver and quicksilver to the admixture of which I tended always.
    Quote Originally Posted by carabric
    Well aside from the obvious historic benefits which have been mentioned throughout the record which bear similarities to the stereotypical vampire(s) (long life, blood red stones etc...). Other similarities are allegorically attached to the idea of vampire. Fulcanelli calls it at one time "our vampire" in Dwellings of the Philosophers. This is due to the fact that at phases it is called death and yet it is still living and able to sustain. Beyond that, he also suggests at times it must avoid the rays of the sun, as the two quotes bellow suggest more succinctly. Whether you want to believe it's allegorical, metaphorical, or plain speak is up to you.

    Benedictus Figulus: All this was done to ward off the too strong rays of the Sun, that our male and female seed might, without hindrance, remain together to the birth: “For the separation of active and passive necessarily prevents generation”.

    153 Chymical Aphorisms: Here learn to understand, that when the rays of the Sun reach the volatile damp earth, salt or saltpeter, thence arise lightning and thunder. Therefore one must catch the atoms soon, ere they vanish.
    Quote Originally Posted by carabric
    On the reverse side appeared a king carrying a great faulchion who caused his soldiers to destroy in his presence a multitude of little children, the mothers weeping at the feet of the murderers. The streams of blood were gathered by other soldiers into a great vessel, wherein the sun and moon bathe.
    This is a bit of a daunting allegory, and I too didn't understand...but in perusing further into the record you will find mention of a blood red oil... And much as Herod had all those innocents slaughtered after the magi followed the star their blood was seen to float on the waters, much the same way the Nile river turned to blood.
    Quote Originally Posted by EtuMalku
    Vampires do not need blood, they need the prana contained in blood.
    The primordial vampires are the children of Aset
    Perhaps the mods should have kept my post concerning the Asetian Bible.

    Em hotep,
    EM
    Quote Originally Posted by BeautifulEvil
    I have unlocked the thread, and please do keep in mind I didn't lock it - deviadah did. So really, you shouldn't say "mods" or really mod at all, since deviadah is the administrator, and I'm the only moderator.

    Now let me ask you a question. Why do they need the prana from blood, and why can't they obtain it from other means? It's a pretty basic question, but I want to see how you'll answer.
    Quote Originally Posted by EtuMalku
    I apologize, my mistake.
    Why do they need the prana from blood, and why can't they obtain it from other means?
    The simplest answer is that their Chakra / Shen centers have been damaged and they no longer retain the prana like normal humans do. There are many other ways to obtain this energy. But in the end it is the life-force that is needed to be replenished.

    Thank you for unlocking my thread,
    Em hotep,
    EM
    Last edited by Aleilius; 01-02-2009 at 02:08 AM.

  4. #4
    I apologize, my mistake.
    No problem really. I try to be as fair, thoughtful, and understanding as possible.

    The simplest answer is that their Chakra / Shen centers have been damaged and they no longer retain the prana like normal humans do. There are many other ways to obtain this energy. But in the end it is the life-force that is needed to be replenished.
    Yeah, that's pretty much how I thought you'd answer. Do you believe this life-force is a material substance, or immaterial? Most people will say it's immaterial, but I know a few people who would argue and say it's an actual physical substance.
    Quote Originally Posted by EtuMalku
    Thanks BeautifulEvil,
    I am going to go with not material, only because it has never been measured or recorded in any way . . . yet!
    Though I am not certain really. If we don't have instruments that can measure something as prana that doesn't mean it is not physical.
    Quote Originally Posted by spectre
    I believe the symbol of the vampire would be most similar to ferocious beasts in alchemy. The vampire has sometimes been described as beasts, such as bats or wolves and evil sorcerers in Native Indian tales were sometimes werewolves, or changed into other ferocious animals. Vampires have not really been mentioned in alchemy, so I'm trying to find an analogy here.

    Neither have I found C.G. Jung talk about vampires but here's an interesting subject where he speaks about the alchemical symbol of ferocious beasts:
    When he no longer knows by what his soul is sustained, the potential of the unconscious is increased and takes the lead. Desirousness overpowers him, and illusory goals set up in the place of the eternal images excite his greed. The beast of prey seizes hold of him and soon makes him forget that he is a human being. His animal affects hamper any reflection that might stand in the way of his infantile existence and intoxicating him with the lust for booty and blood.
    But when he loses his own values he becomes a hungry robber; the wolf, lion and other ravening beasts which for the alchemists symbolized the appetites that break lose when the black waters of chaos - i.e. the unconsciousness - have swallowed up the king.
    From C.G. Jung's Rex and Regina, Mysterium coniunctionis

    So, the beast (or, vampire) is encountered in the Nigredo phase and desires the vital spirit.

    My thoughts: Vampires also symbolizes the "Guardian on the Threshold" (Shadow) which stands in the way of an apprentice of reaching the next stage of rebirth, or Albedo. A nigromancer (practitioner who "divines from nigredo") would not transmute the "matter damnata" but would instead form a "pact" (sometimes with "blood") with the Guardian Shadow. There are basically two types of pacts: gain spiritual power in exchange for vital energy ("blood"); this is the vampiric path.. or gain power in the exchange for mental oppression... this would be similar to gaining money (a synthetic symbol of "vital energy") in exchange for "selling out"; this would be the "devil path". The two basic demonic pacts.. either with vampiric Lucifer (Lilith) or with devilish Ahriman; the two basic opposite demon "princes" in Anthrosophy by occultist Rudolf Steiner. In terms of chakra imbalance, the Luciferic force takes control (parasitically feeds) on the lower chakras, while the Ahrimanic force feeds on the higher chakras. The "boon" each demon gives is Luciferic: false-sense of immortality (the sensation from the demon residing in the lower vital-spirit chakras) and spiritual power (development focused on the higher centres). Ahrimanic: false-sense of omnipotent intelligence (the sensation from the demon residing in the higher mental-spirit chakras) and vital health (development forced to the lower centres). In essence, the Luciferic / Vampiric person will be a sickly individual with propensity for learning and mental creativity, while the Ahrimanic / Devilish person will be a close-minded (cannot learn new ideas) and physically developed person. Paradoxically the vampiric person will believe in its own immortality but the devilish person will believe in its own high intelligence; while both are delusional since the vampiric one will lack health (active low chakras) and the devilish one will lack open mind (open high-chakras). To compensate for their conditions they will "drain from others"; the vampiric will drain vital power or try to get someone else to do physical work for them but the devilish will drain their mental-power from a large paradigm (orthodox or mainstream.. so it appears mentally "more appealing", since it is larger and has greater number of people putting mental-spirit work into it), or "sell out" to someone else's ideas. Hence, the vampiric ends up with the sense of immortality since he senses the the great vital forces in health around him (but they don't originate within himself) that he sucks all around his "sense of vitality" and the devilish ends up with the sense of omnipotence since he senses the great mental forces in large orthodox paradigms that he sucks his "sense of intelligence" from. But both are imbalanced and not real transmutations. While Nigredo is realizing the limitations (the saturnian circumference, the dead/necro or black/nigro), I would think Albedo would be the phase of chakra healing/reactivation and Rubedo would be a prize born from mutual working of the Higher and the Lower. Alchemy can't be complete without all three phases and "vampirism" is simply being stuck in a half of one phase (the first, Nigredo); it's the shadow-side of alchemy that can sense other higher phases of alchemy through reflection but on-its own it cannot lead to the Great Work of such as alchemist Nicholas Flamel but only perpetual degeneration (as the nature of blackening is to putrefy, mind to dementia or body to death) such as alchemist Gilles de Rais.. who went from seeking alchemy into becoming a demon-worshipper and vampiric pedophiliac

    Vampirism [note: meaning here necrophilia] satisfies him for months. He polutes dead children, appeasing the fever of his desires in the blood smeared chill of the tomb. He even goes so far-one day when his supply of children is exhausted-as to disembowel a pregnant woman and sport with the foetus. After these excesses he falls into horrible states of coma, similar to those heavy lethargies which overpowered Sergeant Bertrand after his violations of the grave. But if that leaden sleep is one of the known 'phases of ordinary vampirism, if Gilles de Rais was merely a sexual pervert, we must admit that he distinguished himself from the most delirious sadists, the most exquisite virtuosi in pain and murder, by a detail which seems extrabuman, it is so horrible.
    from English translation of La Bas by Joris-Karl Huysman

    Obviously, Gilles de Ray was snatched completely by the first Nigredo state and turned into a pedophilic coward (while formerly being believed to be a pious hero), that paradoxically feared death more than anything, while trying to gain alchemical transmutation from summoning demons and with human sacrifice and his personal homosexual pleasure through worst degree of sadism on children. Other Alchemists that reached the phase of Albedo obviously did not fall into such trap while going through the Nigredo-phase and did not submit completely to the demonic temptations; they watched into the abyss and experienced it but didn't fall prey to it or become it.

    I must note however that there are other types of "daimons" than I mention here. In essence daimon simply means "spirit", like in the original Greek. The daimons mentioned above mean de - mon in the sense of making "unwhole" or "unhealthy", in the "traditional sense" (today's sense). However, there are other types of daimons that guide without oppression, these are "spiritual guides" and are more related with the Albedo than Nigredo; like the daimon of Socrates.
    Quote Originally Posted by EtuMalku
    Spectre: this is perhaps one of the finest discourse on vampirism I have ever read. I have recently become a fan of Rudolph Steiner and Theosophy, is much of your theories presented here from Steiner? If so, please direct me towards the books containing this vampiric information. Otherwise, if you would direct me to the sources pertinent to your conclusions I would be greatly appreciative.

    Em hotep,
    EM
    Quote Originally Posted by EtuMalku
    Quote Originally Posted by taceyoto
    Well acording to the text I read, the earliest "symtpoms'' of vampirism were exhibited in Ancient Egypt when the Ba and the Ka escaped the body, one looked like a bird andthe other like the human soul, the human soul would look for offerenings to survive ( why they buried food with thier dead) and with no offerings they would prey on human energy. the first "vampire" was the first mummy ever, said to have been mummified by Anubis himself.
    Greetings taceyoto, could reference the text that you were reading with this information please?

    Em hotep,
    EM
    Quote Originally Posted by EtuMalku
    (Kemetic = Egyptian, Ka = Essence or Soul, Aset = Isis)
    Ka is the the essense / spirit Ba is much closer to the Western idea of soul.
    I don't think there's any blood involved.
    It does involve blood as it contains the prana that is needed by them.
    from the Asetian Bible:
    "Blood is the most widespread energetically charged substance, closely followed by semen and vaginal fluids . . . . . The organs that control and guide the energy inside the subtle body - called by Asetians as Shen Centers (Chakras) - are all connected by energy filaments, called meridians. . . . The meridians work in a similar way to the physical blood vessels, and are to some extent aligned with them . . . . Blood is not a metaphor for vital energy . . . a misconception in the new-age vampire communities . . . but a vessel for life force itself . . . "
    As for the remaining commentary on Asetianism, I am an Asetianist and though I am in no coming to the Aset Ka's defense I do urge you to possibly read the Asetian Bible which goes further into detail than anything posted on the website will.
    Last edited by Aleilius; 01-02-2009 at 02:13 AM.

  5. #5
    Wiki: Lucifer
    Quote Originally Posted by spectre
    I've read ideas of Rudolf Steiner but he doesn't mention vampirism as far as I know. The reason I made the comparison with his description of Lucifer and vampirism is that Lucifer causes disturbances like obsessions, an overwhelming feeling of questions, insomnia and feeling like being unable to breath. He considered the Egyptian Sphinx to be a symbol of Lucifer and he considered Lucifer to have been an especially dominant force around the times of Egypt and Greece. In mythology the Sphinx causes feeling of strangulation and it asks riddles.

    The other demon that opposes Lucifer is Ahriman. He likened his symbol to the traditional image of demons, the goat-like horned and hoofed creatures. Being the opposite of Lucifer, it causes disturbances of NOT asking any questions and accepting unquestionably and it causes cold and calculating mental disposition that works like a machine or computer. According to Steiner Ahriman is supposed to be the dominant force today that leads reductionist technocratic academia. According to Steiner, the alchemist in the story of Faust was really following Ahriman, aka Mephistopheles. The alchemist wanted to take a short-cut by making a demonic pact to grant his wishes but by mindlessly following every advice of Ahriman/Mephisto he was eventually deceived and ruined.

    The third force is that of Krishna (Christ). That force transcends Lucifer and Ahriman and makes life sustainable. It's the only force of the three that's not eventually somehow evil but good. His ideas can be compared to the three phases of alchemy, or the three qualities in astrology, where Lucifer would stand for Blackening or Mutable, Ahriman for Whitening or Fixed and Krishna for Reddening or Cardinal.


    I haven't read much of Rudolf Steiner but I own a biography of him (that I've yet to read) and a book called "Colour". Really, it's a bit hard to study Steiner since most of his works haven't been translated from German and he wrote extensively on many subjects so it might also be hard to find the subjects one is most interested in.

    Here's a good webpage though and some quotes that explain Lucifer (what I associate being similar to "vampirism"):

    What happens when the breathing process becomes excessively vigorous and forceful? The ether-body expands, becomes too diffuse; and as this takes effect in the physical body, it tends to break up the physical body. An over-exuberant, too widely extended ether-body gives rise to an excessively vigorous breathing process and this provides the Luciferic forces with opportunity to work.

    The Luciferic forces, then, can make their way into the human being when the ether-body has expanded beyond the normal. One can also say that the Luciferic forces tend to express themselves in an ether-body that has expanded beyond the limits of the human form, that is to say, in an ether-body requiring more space than is provided within the boundaries of the human skin.
    And so there is a definite connection between the Sphinx and the breathing process. But we also know that the breathing process is connected in a very special way with the blood. Therefore the Luciferic forces also operate in the blood, permeating and surging through it. By way of the breathing, the Luciferic forces can everywhere make their way into the blood of the human being and when excessive energy is promoted in the blood, the Luciferic nature — the Sphinx — becomes very strong.
    And here's a quote about Ahriman that I called "devilish" (because Steiner likened it's symbol to be Satyr-like). It craves blood of humans since it lacks it according to Steiner. So you can take your own picks of what of Steiner's demons you find most similar to vampires. I personally find Lucifer to share more of the qualities and Ahriman to be more like a demon (that wants blood-pacts). Perhaps the answer is that both are parasitic in their own special, exaclty opposite ways. So perhaps Ahriman demands B kind of energy and gives A kind of energy, while Lucifer drains A and gives B.

    Ahriman is deprived of the possibility of penetrating into the blood because he cannot come near the warmth of the blood. If he wants to establish a connection with a human being, he will therefore crave for a drop of blood, because access to the blood is so difficult for him. An abyss lies between Mephistopheles and the blood. When he draws near to man as a living being, when he wants to make a connection with man, he realizes that the essentially human power lives in the blood. He must therefore endeavor to get hold of the blood.

    That Faust's pact with Mephistopheles is signed with blood is a proof of the wisdom contained in the legend. Faust must bind himself to Mephistopheles by way of the blood, because Mephistopheles has no direct access to the blood and craves for it. Just as the Greek confronted the Sphinx whose field of operation is the breathing system, so the man of the Fifth Post-Atlantean epoch confronts Mephistopheles who operates in the nerve-process, who is cold and scornful because he is bloodless, because he lacks the warmth that belongs to the blood. He is the scoffer, the cold, scornful companion of man.
    http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Pla...141120p01.html
    Quote Originally Posted by spectre
    As for the remaining commentary on Asetianism, I am an Asetianist and though I am in no coming to the Aset Ka's defense I do urge you to possibly read the Asetian Bible which goes further into detail than anything posted on the website will.
    Alright but don't you find it stupid that the Asetians will make so bold statements in their creeds? It's similar to a fundamental believers that claim everyone is lost because they don't belong to their sect. Reading the Asetian creeds it makes you think that everyone needs to become an Asetian to be saved in the afterlife and that is simply ignorant or deceptive to claim.

    But to be fair, I'm not only against the creeds Asetians and other similar gothic groups but also many other. I've looked into a lot of religions from satanism to christianity and always found something I consider erroneous claims; in the case of satanism for an example there's so much narrow-mindedness and claims of omniscience of how Nature works, yet it misunderstands almost everything of Nature. In the case of Christianity there's so much focus on the interpretations out of the bible and absolutely no serious critical outlook or attempt to explain why exactly texts such as from the Old Testament would be "so important to God". In my opinion, and I admit it's pretty grim, I think satanists are trying to cover their own ignorance and make others believe in the authority of their ego, while Christians are trying to cover the ignorance of the Church history and make others believe in the authority of the Church. I like alchemy since it's a much more sincere quest for truth and both leaves satanist opinions of Nature and Christian opinions of God in the dust.

    And one more thing about vampires.. I personally find the megabats (fruit bats or flying-foxes) to be much cooler than the microbats (few of which suck blood). They're much larger, more intelligent, and don't suck blood but eat fruits but still are nocturnal and sinister to behold.
    Quote Originally Posted by EtuMalku
    Thank you very much for the info, wonderful.
    My view of Lucifer is a bit different, Lucifer is a principle of the Universe and stands for gnosis. Lux Lucis / Lucifer is the truth and the way to the hidden knowledge that will take you further than God when you physically die and onto become a God/Creator instead of One with God, remaining a creation.

    As far as the Asetian commentary: the truth will always be perceived as bold to those that are skeptical, this is normal.
    True Gnosis is contained and taught from the Mystery schools that existed in ancient Egypt, the same schools that Yeshua of Nazareth were taught how to become a God/Creator.

    Bats? Vampirism?
    Quote Originally Posted by spectre
    Ok, my own view on vampirism is that it is a symbol of morbid fascination and of being stuck in a nigredo-phase limbo, being unable to let go of some addiction and thus being neither dead or alive; undead. Or acting like a ravenous beast and forgetting one's soul in the nigredo phase.

    My view on Lucifer is that it's an archetype that closely represents the planet Venus. It causes duality, change, intrigue and internal questioning, it can represent a romantic interest that "turns life around" or some other hypnotic influence that almost makes it hard to speak or breathe and changes oneself. It can also represent sly or crafty tricksters or seductresses, mythological figures such as Loki, Judas, Jezebel or Lilith, that incite movement/change that can result in nightmares.. they cause problems (questions) or "movement in the story" but they don't necessarily provide any solutions (answers) - those, other archetypes need to provide. Positively it represents the Anima for males and Animus for females.. the archetype of the soul of the "other sex", that can cause internal conflict/questions, intrigue, day-dreams and quest for pleasure.

    True Gnosis is contained and taught from the Mystery schools that existed in ancient Egypt, the same schools that Yeshua of Nazareth were taught how to become a God/Creator.
    By the way, Jesus certainly was no Asetian, he was an Essene (180° from being a psi-vampire) and yet according to the myth he certainly developed his Markaba/Light Body or whatever you want to call it, so that disproves the creeds of the Asetians (since they claim they're the only ones able to do such Soul-work feats). What I'd personally call Luciferean influences were through Judas as told in the Gospel of Judas, where Judas is described as having the closest relationship with Jesus from the disciples and having done what he did by Jesus' own wishes. Judas is also described there as a "star".

    Not to disrespect you personally but I honestly still think they're a religious cult that have lied about some tradition that doesn't exist and made some ego-centric creed (or corrupted some scriptures to that end) to fascinate a following (like I believe most religious groups do). But I'm wondering about the references you said existed for proof about connections between Egyptian texts and vampirism in the Asetian Bible thread?
    Quote Originally Posted by EtuMalku
    Ok, my own view on vampirism is that it is a symbol of morbid fascination and of being stuck in a nigredo-phase limbo, being unable to let go of some addiction and thus being neither dead or alive; undead. Or acting like a ravenous beast and forgetting one's soul in the nigredo phase.
    I don't believe vampirism is symbolic, it is fact and manifest here. But could you define the term 'nigredo' I am unfamiliar with it?
    My view on Lucifer is that it's an archetype that closely represents the planet Venus. It causes duality, change, intrigue and internal questioning
    To me Lucifer is the personification of gnosis and altruism.
    By the way, Jesus certainly was no Asetian, he was an Essene (180° from being a psi-vampire) and yet according to the myth he certainly developed his Markaba/Light Body or whatever you want to call it, so that disproves the creeds of the Asetians (since they claim they're the only ones able to do such Soul-work feats).
    I never said Yeshua was an Asetian or a vampire. I don't see anywhere the Asetians claiming to be the only ones able to do 'Soul-work feats'? Please direct me to where you got your information.
    Not to disrespect you personally but I honestly still think they're a religious cult that have lied about some tradition that doesn't exist and made some ego-centric creed (or corrupted some scriptures to that end) to fascinate a following (like I believe most religious groups do)
    None taken, you are entitled to your opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by spectre
    Nigredo means "blackening" or "mortification". It's often considered the first stage in alchemical work.

    I could go on criticizing the religious group but I won't since I know you don't mean to defend them and there's little more to discuss since the whole thing crumbles down when you start digging deeper; since the veracity of the whole thing, for an example in terms of the Kemetic tradition and Egyptology, is very lacking. I haven't found a single source, or review of the Asetian Bible, that provides the Egyptian connection.
    Quote Originally Posted by EtuMalku
    Thank you, I am new to the subject of al-kimiya
    As for the Aset Ka, I am not sure what you are getting at. They are most certainly Kemetic, what information have you read about them that says otherwise? In any case I am an asetianist (I study Asetianism) and hold the Aset Ka in high esteem, so perhaps we should desist with the conversation concerning them being you are not a fan.
    Quote Originally Posted by spectre
    Well, there are many issues I discern, some of them being some specifics in their metaphysical theories, but mainly their main-claim about the Egyptian tradition.

    What I mean is that they mention some Egyptian connection with vampires but they don't give any references, for an example you mentioned Isis having some vampiric birth but I've seen no truth to it. You did mention you had references you were willing to give that supposedly prove connection between Egyptology and Asetianism but you didn't provide them. Do you have them? Because if you do, please link them. I've striven to give links or quotes to sources, so it's fair exchange, besides you've already offered to give them but haven't done it yet.

    Neither have I seen any other Asetians actually provide any sources/references in terms of their main assertion of an Egyptian tradition. Sincerely I believe the reason is that they can't give direct references or point to specific chapters in Egyptian texts.. is simply because they can't, because there's no such connection existing.
    Last edited by Aleilius; 01-02-2009 at 02:30 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by EtuMalku
    I apologize, I have mentioned that everything can be found in the Coffin texts, the Pyramid Texts and the Papyrus of Ani (the Books of the Dead). They are huge volumes and I will find some passages that relate.
    What I mean is that they mention some Egyptian connection with vampires but they don't give any references, for an example you mentioned Isis having some vampiric birth but I've seen no truth to it.
    Firstly, it is Aset (Isis) that gives birth to the Asetian lineage. Aset is not a vampire. Her three children are. Aset being a Goddess grants Horus and his siblings rule over Egypt. Their physical bodies are mortal but their demigod souls are immortal.
    Neither have I seen any other Asetians actually provide any sources/references in terms of their main assertion of an Egyptian tradition.
    The Asetians have offered an entire Book concerning themselves with direct quotes from all the Texts previously mentioned.

    "May your flesh be born to life
    And may your life encompass more,
    Than the life of the stars as they exist"

    - Pyramid Texts

    "She uttered the spell with her magical power of Her mouth.
    Her tongue was perfect, and it never halted at a word.
    Beneficent in command and word was Aset,
    The one of magical spells"

    - Egyptian Book of the Dead

    "Aset will embrace you in peace.
    She will drive away the opponent from your path.
    Place your face to the West, that you may illumine the two lands.
    The dead have stood up to look at you.
    Breathing the air and seeing your face.
    Like the rising of the Sun disk in the horizon.
    Their hearts are pleased with what you have done.
    To you belong eternity and everlastingness."

    - Book of the Dead

    It is a complex subject and one that I am still learning about. Those were quotes I found quickly, as I find more I will post them.
    Quote Originally Posted by kerkring
    In the Philosophers of Nature material, Mineral Alchemy Vol. 2, p38 and following they give a text from the Bacstrom Rosicrucian Society which describes a way to make the stone from human blood. The blood acts as a magnet that attracts the universal spirit or fire energy and concentrates it.

    It uses the 'blood of the young man' as a starting material, the blood of the young man is the blood of the adept who already has become younger through his preliminary work in the vegetable and mineral kingdoms. This means that the operator made and used a series of herbal and mineral elixirs to purify and increase his or her rate of vibration. This is supposed to alter the blood of the individual too.
    In the Philosophers of Nature material, Mineral Alchemy Vol. 2, p38 and following they give a text from the Bacstrom Rosicrucian Society which describes a way to make the stone from human blood. The blood acts as a magnet that attracts the universal spirit or fire energy and concentrates it.
    I've heard of this from a few different sources. We all know the connection between blood and vampires. The symbolism seems to fit together too well: vampires, blood, eternal youth, nocturnal creatures.

    It uses the 'blood of the young man' as a starting material, the blood of the young man is the blood of the adept who already has become younger through his preliminary work in the vegetable and mineral kingdoms. This means that the operator made and used a series of herbal and mineral elixirs to purify and increase his or her rate of vibration. This is supposed to alter the blood of the individual too.
    This is pretty interesting. Why'd you draw the conclusion between the blood of an adept and the blood of a young man? We know the alchemists were a sneaky bunch, but this seems straight forward. I could be wrong though.
    Quote Originally Posted by kerkring
    Quote Originally Posted by BeautifulEvil
    This is pretty interesting. Why'd you draw the conclusion between the blood of an adept and the blood of a young man? We know the alchemists were a sneaky bunch, but this seems straight forward. I could be wrong though.
    In the old text they say 'blood of the young man', the people from PON then make the comment that this means the blood of an adept or someone who has already been purified to some degree by taking vegetable and mineral alchemical products. The purification can also be done through work with the Qabala according to Dubuis.

    Could be that it works with anyone's blood though.

  7. #7
    "Perhaps the answer is that both are parasitic in their own special, exaclty opposite ways. So perhaps Ahriman demands B kind of energy and gives A kind of energy, while Lucifer drains A and gives B."

    More than likely, -whether the entity is beautific or daemonic- it will require some kind of exchange for whatever you wish to gain from it. I came to realize that what we consider "mana" , "hamingja" , "quintessense" or whatnot is the "money" of the Otherworld. At risk of sounding cliche the common theme in Full Metal Alchemist is the concept of "equivalent exchange". When Edward was trafficking with daemonic forces he lost a limb and a leg in exchange for a great amount of knowledge and power (to the point where he no longer needed a "transmutation circle" to work his alchemy) and nearly lost his brother (in fact he had to transfix his brother's soul to a suit of armour because his entire body was lost in the process). It is quite difficult (perhaps even impossible) to gain something from the dark and shadowy forces of the Unseen without giving up something in return.

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