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Thread: Arnold de Villeneuve Le Rosaire des Philosophes

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    This is not so easy like both of you want us make believe it is. I challenge you getting acquainted with these three principles/laws/equations:

    1. Le Chatelier's principle

    2. Hess's law

    and

    3. Gibbs-Helmholtz equation

    With the knowledge of these you can indeed explain and calculate the exact amount of energy/temperature and pressure needed to accomplish almost any desired chemical reaction. And it's not modern top notch chemistry but quite old as you can see.
    Let's take for example getting KHCO3 of good purity. One of methods is using 80%-ethanol saturated solution of KOH and then let CO2 pass through it. To get most output, you need to filter the precipitate and wash it with 80%-ethanol. Now, show me where is ethanol in formula and how can you derive all the necessary requirements from it:
    KOH + CO2 = KHCO3
    Show me where is solution, filtering, washing, etc. Show me how those aforementioned laws will say about requirements for this reaction.

    I have shown here one of the simplest examples. But keep in mind, some reactions are totally not forgiving if you will do them without practical knowledge and you won't see requirements just from some mere formulas, laws and equations. Speaking about explosives, in my land books with practical description of preparation of explosives are totally forbidden for public access, while noone cares about theory books because they are basically useless for anything practical (well, maybe you could use an equation or two from them, but that's basically it).

    I'd say that approach of artificers is totally different from approach of theoreticians.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warmheart View Post
    Speaking about explosives, in my land books with practical description of preparation of explosives are totally forbidden for public access, while noone cares about theory books because they are basically useless for anything practical (well, maybe you could use an equation or two from them, but that's basically it).
    Indeed, same case in many countries: laboratory manuals on explosives (or drugs) are restricted, while the chemistry text-books explaining theories are not. There is plenty of reason for this. You can learn more about actually making explosives from a book like Davis' The Chemistry of Powder and Explosives, published in 1941, and which wastes comparatively little time on theories and concentrates on descriptions of practical procedures, than from pretty much any modern day organic chemistry university text-book and its barrage of fanciful theories.

  3. #43
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    This wasn't meant to be a discussion between polarities only (good/bad, right/wrong). Most what you guys are saying is true. But it's not the whole picture. Knowledge of said theories can indeed help in the task of Warmheart's example too. But it's not all. I never claimed that. And you can indeed experiment without those theories. Nevertheless using them, can be an advantage. They are not as useless as you think they are.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Yes, that's correct. First of all, nature itself doesn't make the Stone, so trying to "understand nature" in this regard will take you nowhere fast. The Stone is an artificial production of man's industry, skill and ingenuity. Second, the alchemists' theories about nature and matter will also take you nowhere fast. To borrow an analogy from another science (chemistry): it's like if you were trying to discover how some chemists discovered how to make TNT from their theories about "electron orbits/shells", for example, because in their books they were not being clear enough about actual empirical directions on how to make this substance. I bet you any amount of money that no matter how much you study their theories/speculations about matter that you will never just "somehow" learn how to make TNT. No matter how much of their chemical "philosophy" you learn, you still won't discover how to make it. You need more "practical" (i.e. empirical) directions in order to figure that out. All the talk about "electron valence", and "orbits", and "shells", and what-have-you, is not going to make you any wiser about how to make TNT. So, you have only one course of action left if you want to discover how to make it: try to gather as many actual practical/empirical clues from the writings of the chemists themselves, and then put your conclusions to the test. Trial and error. Process of elimination. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY, since the people who actually know how to make this substance are not inclined to teach all the steps in a totally clear manner. Now apply the same to the Stone and alchemy. It is the exact same thing. So, if you have alchemists who are purposefully misdirecting you into working on wrong substances and procedures, you are not going to be inclined to be very kind in your judgement of such malicious people who are doing nothing else but making you waste your time and money on fruitless attempts. It's as if some of those chemists referred to in the analogy above were misdirecting you on purpose to try to make TNT out of, say, for example, ketchup and beer. They would be perfectly aware that not even if you live to be 1000 years old and try every single day of your life that you would still never succeed, as there is no practical way of making that substance from those matters only. This would be pure malice, plain and simple. It has no other objective than to frustrate as many people as possible by making them waste their time and money in practical impossibilities. It would then be perfectly justified to label this type of purposefully misleading chemists as "BASTARDS!", and that they should receive just punishment for their malicious intent. Same with this type of alchemist.
    I disagree. Nature does make the stone. As Above, So Below. Alchemy works on different levels, on every level. This is why we call our flask a microcosm, being the mini Earth. Nature does make the stone, I'd like to make this clear where I stand.

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    The Stone is an artificial production of man's industry, skill and ingenuity. Second, the alchemists' theories about nature and matter will also take you nowhere fast. To borrow an analogy from another science (chemistry): it's like if you were trying to discover how some chemists discovered how to make TNT from their theories about "electron orbits/shells",
    This is true, except, you're missing a very important ingredient here. What does it mean when every alchemist, the Emerald Tablet too, speak about that which is most volatile? What does this mean? Do you believe in something called ''free energy''? In the science community, energy cannot be destroyed, therefore, when you reduce a matter to dust putrefaction you can very well see, that this is like opening up something and allowing that which is most volatile to escape, this is why the Emerald Tablet speaks of ingenuity... Vulgar fire will make these things escape before you can blink. There are more than one fires, this is why authors talk philosophically, to give you something to think about..

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    ''They would be perfectly aware that not even if you live to be 1000 years old and try every single day of your life that you would still never succeed, as there is no practical way of making that substance from those matters only.''
    ingenuity my friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    ''for example, because in their books they were not being clear enough about actual empirical directions on how to make this substance''
    What comes from Empirical facts? Could speculation, and theory not be put into practicality? Can one not rectify their thoughts and their understanding in order to push again, their theory into practicality? Why or why not? How many avenues have you took to say otherwise?

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    try to gather as many actual practical/empirical clues from the writings of the chemists themselves, and then put your conclusions to the test. Trial and error. Process of elimination. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY,''[/B]
    Well every chemist I've seen, miss a very important ingredient, which is a spiritual essence, volatile, they work with a dead matter, what makes you or me animate? Could a baby be born from a dead woman? I see it as the same thing friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    So, if you have alchemists who are purposefully misdirecting you into working on wrong substances and procedures, you are not going to be inclined to be very kind in your judgement of such malicious people who are doing nothing else but making you waste your time and money on fruitless attempts
    When spoken poetically, a poet may say something, but mean another, therefore, an alchemist may speak philosophically, may be saying this but really is alluding to this, the fault is not the alchemist, the fault is the reader and their level of understanding. The alchemist isn't to blame, what we need to do, is figure out the very nature of what we're reading... is this a genuine author, a jealous one, a wannabe?

    What is the difference to you, between a Chemist, and an Alchemist? What is Alchemy? How is Alchemy possible? You said before it is an accidental phenomenon or something, If I'm not mistaken, isn't this like saying that God plays by dice?

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    It's as if some of those chemists referred to in the analogy above were misdirecting you on purpose to try to make TNT out of, say, for example, ketchup and beer.

    This is why I stress about Theory > Practicality, 1, 2, and 3 being the result. If you understand the theoretical part, no one can tell you that the ingredients are mustard and ketchup, because you actually understand the Theoretical part, it makes sense, therefore you then can't push something that doesn't make sense, and all of a sudden pieces start to fit inside your mind. Without Theory, everyone is on a wild goose chase, chasing a real life goose that lays golden eggs.... good luck with that.

    Sorry for not responding, I've been really busy.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by tAlchemist View Post
    I disagree. Nature does make the stone. As Above, So Below. Alchemy works on different levels, on every level. This is why we call our flask a microcosm, being the mini Earth. Nature does make the stone, I'd like to make this clear where I stand.
    You can "disagree" all you want, that still won't alter the facts: nature does NOT make the Stone or anything resembling it. If it really did, it would already have been found already made somewhere. It hasn't. And it never will. Why? Again: NATURE DOES NOT MAKE THIS THING ON ITS OWN. The intelligent and purposeful intervention of man is what causes the right substances and conditions to come together and happen for it to be generated.


    This is true, except, you're missing a very important ingredient here. What does it mean when every alchemist, the Emerald Tablet too, speak about that which is most volatile? What does this mean? Do you believe in something called ''free energy''? In the science community, energy cannot be destroyed, therefore, when you reduce a matter to dust putrefaction you can very well see, that this is like opening up something and allowing that which is most volatile to escape, this is why the Emerald Tablet speaks of ingenuity... Vulgar fire will make these things escape before you can blink. There are more than one fires, this is why authors talk philosophically, to give you something to think about..
    You are projecting modern unproven concepts ("free energy" and the like) onto the alchemists. Wrong manner of investigating.

    ingenuity my friend.
    Yes, man's ingenuity and skill, which is what makes the Stone happen, not nature on its own. If you leave nature to its own devices, it will never make anything like the Stone. It doesn't want to. It doesn't need to. It doesn't know how. So, it just ain't going to happen, bud.

    What comes from Empirical facts?
    Real knowledge. Certainty.

    Could speculation, and theory not be put into practicality? Can one not rectify their thoughts and their understanding in order to push again, their theory into practicality? Why or why not? How many avenues have you took to say otherwise?
    Yes, but you can still "hit a nail in the head" with the wrong "tool" (say, a shoe, for example) instead of with the proper one
    (viz. a hammer.) That doesn't mean that your theory/speculation was really correct and what you think is happening is actually happening. That's the thing with the speculative world: it always remains subject to change, it always remains uncertain. It's shifty, shaky & changing. Very different from cold, hard, solid empirical facts on their own, which always remain the same. The "naked truth" in the flesh and right in front of your eyes! Empirical facts don't care one bit about what you "think" is causing them, whether it's an all-knowing, all-seing Bearded Man in the sky who is moving invisible strings since He created the universe or some tiny and capricious invisible particles in perpetual vibration & motion since always... it's totally meaningless to them. They just "are" and will continue to "be" quite undisturbed by what you choose to believe is causing them. Better to just accept them and move on.

    Well every chemist I've seen, miss a very important ingredient, which is a spiritual essence, volatile, they work with a dead matter, what makes you or me animate? Could a baby be born from a dead woman? I see it as the same thing friend.
    So they are "missing a very important ingredient" for which you and in fact nobody else in this world has the slightest shred of evidence that it actually exists... Amazing! It's obvious that you still do not understand the fundamental difference between "speculation" and "facts".

    When spoken poetically, a poet may say something, but mean another, therefore, an alchemist may speak philosophically, may be saying this but really is alluding to this, the fault is not the alchemist, the fault is the reader and their level of understanding. The alchemist isn't to blame, what we need to do, is figure out the very nature of what we're reading... is this a genuine author, a jealous one, a wannabe?
    Bad analogy. Poetry is not science. Unless writing about alchemy specifically, a poet has free licence to write about anything, even stuff that doesn't exist. They are not pretending to be writing about facts or being very accurate. It's just literature. So, yes, the fault is still with the writer, not the reader. The one being misleading is the first, not the second. Such absurd excuses for being malicious and wasting other people's time and money are not convincing at all. It's the utter bullcrap that these types of alchemists invented themselves to try to place the blame for their own actions upon their victims: "don't blame me for writing deliberately misleading stuff to make you waste your time & money working on the wrong substances and processes, blame yourself!" Pure hypocrisy. Pure bullshit. Nothing else.

    What is the difference to you, between a Chemist, and an Alchemist? What is Alchemy? How is Alchemy possible?
    Three words: the secret solvent. It's what makes the difference between "alchemy" and the other two ("chymistry" & "chemistry") laboratory sciences that investigate the world of substances and their reactions.

    You said before it is an accidental phenomenon or something, If I'm not mistaken, isn't this like saying that God plays by dice?
    What "God"? First you need to prove that "He" actually even exists before you can determine whether he likes to play dice or not! You are still lost in the labyrinthine and shaky world of PURE SPECULATION. Free yourself from its chains! Trust empirical facts, nothing else. Everything else is uncertain. And it always will be.

    This is why I stress about Theory > Practicality, 1, 2, and 3 being the result. If you understand the theoretical part, no one can tell you that the ingredients are mustard and ketchup, because you actually understand the Theoretical part, it makes sense, therefore you then can't push something that doesn't make sense, and all of a sudden pieces start to fit inside your mind. Without Theory, everyone is on a wild goose chase, chasing a real life goose that lays golden eggs.... good luck with that.
    Again, you obviously don't understand the fundamental difference between "facts" and "theory/speculation/conjecture". It is the theories that will take you nowhere. You also show that you have a great deal of difficulty understanding analogies and what is being explained. If you do not have any book telling you how TNT is actually made, and some malicious chemist comes around and tells you "it is made from ketchup and beer; keep trying and you will succeed, and if you don't, blame yourself, not us!" it is easy to predict that you will endlessly waste your time & money trying to make it from those substances, no matter how much of chemistry's theories you actually have learnt. What good will knowing such things like "electron orbits" and "valences" do you in order to learn from what actual substances and methods is that explosive actually made? None. In the same manner, learning such things as how the alchemists thought that minerals and metals were "made" inside the "bowels of the earth" from long interactions of PURELY SPECULATIVE "mercurial" & "sulfureous" "principles" will not help you one bit in knowing from what actual substances and processes they actually composed the Stone. If it was otherwise, then virtually every intelligent person would eventually have discovered the whole thing by now, since the alchemists made no secret whatsoever about their theoretical ruminations. They did not help anyone get any closer to the actual facts, though.
    Last edited by JDP; 10-21-2018 at 03:02 AM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    You can "disagree" all you want, that still won't alter the facts: nature does NOT make the Stone or anything resembling it. If it really did, it would already have been found already made somewhere. It hasn't. And it never will. Why? Again: NATURE DOES NOT MAKE THIS THING ON ITS OWN. The intelligent and purposeful intervention of man is what causes the right substances and conditions to come together and happen for it to be generated.
    Nature does make the stone. The very reason why man intervenes is because many different winds, temperatures, animals, bugs, MANY NOISE takes place, all we do is give it a controlled and suitable environment to naturally grow UNDISTURBED.

    If you think that the alchemical texts are equivalent to ketchup & beer then why do you read them? What is there to learn from ketchup & beer in pursuit of the stone? If alchemists are misleading, what are you doing reading their books?

    How many authors do you feel are authentic? I have yet to see you suggest that any author may have likely confected the stone, it's usually you saying that the very authors you read that they're off the mark... How do you know this? How do you come to this conclusion, without understanding Alchemical Principals?

    Hermes advise us to look into nature, the author of Emerald Tablet said that. Okay, I'll look into nature. Solve & Coagula... What does this mean? Do ponds stay there forever and ever or do they eventually congeal over time and form into earth? I've seen this kind of thing, but I didn't stand there and wait until it happens, I FIRST understood this in my mind, when trying to understand NATURAL Alchemical Principals. So much for ''Theory & Speculation gets you nowhere fast'' huh?

    Isaac Hollandus says: 1. In the Vegetable Work there is much coagulating, dissolving, and rectifying to well prepare the spirits so that they do not fly away - Volatile? (doesn't this ALL happen in nature? dissolving, rectifying (evolution, distillation, coagulate, break down)

    2. If you lose the natural moisture at the beginning, your work will become too dry in its composition (Gee, look at the Sahara Desert, does it look the same as say, a Rain Forest, or the Jungle? How many avenues have you investigated when it comes to the natural path JDP? Does everything occur in everyone's flask, look exactly the same to you, of course not, because not everyone is imitating or doing the exact same thing, this is why different parts of nature look different in the macrocosm); or if it loses some Spirit of Air in the distillation due to a faulty vessel or leak in the luting, you will lose your high projection. If you lose some in the Fire, your medicine will not tincture much and will also lose its ability to ingress. If it has too much Air, it will fly away, if it has too much Water, the Spirits will drown so that it cannot be fixed, If it has too much Earth, it will be to dry, so that it can neither melt no have ingress. Therefore the work of the separation of the Elements involves a great deal of concerns, as many mistakes can occur.

    great ingenuity!

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    You are projecting modern unproven concepts ("free energy" and the like) onto the alchemists. Wrong manner of investigating.
    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Yes, man's ingenuity and skill, which is what makes the Stone happen, not nature on its own. If you leave nature to its own devices, it will never make anything like the Stone. It doesn't want to. It doesn't need to. It doesn't know how. So, it just ain't going to happen, bud.
    Oh really now, what does the word esoteric mean to you? I've had several astral projection experiences, very vivid, indisputable, to me, but I don't think the rest of the World has totally caught up with this phenomenon. Alchemy isn't discovered, it's being investigated, sought after, to be understood, right? Well, the secret solvent isn't a proven concept, so why are you investigating? You can't wait for the science community to figure things out for you, JDP, you have to discover things on your own! With this way of thinking, MANY things would have not been discovered, because everyone else is waiting for the other person to find something out for them, so that they can ''investigate''. Ingenuity is something the science community is not quite getting when it comes to alchemy!

    Also, read again here: The very reason why man intervenes is because many different winds, temperatures, animals, bugs, MANY NOISE takes place, all we do is give it a controlled and suitable environment to naturally grow UNDISTURBED

    Even a baby needs proper conditions, this is critical otherwise death! Some things need a more controlled environment, like you and me, and a polar bear, we are still naturally occurring, but require different natural conditions like many other natural things this is why I say, you have to know what it is you're looking for to give it the proper kind of condition. This is why I say theory and philosophy as well! Nature is evident around us, but not understood, not even Nature is Empirically Factual in many regards.

    Authors say that the phenomenon is natural. What author says otherwise, that you feel is genuine?

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Yes, but you can still "hit a nail in the head" with the wrong "tool" (say, a shoe, for example) instead of with the proper one
    (viz. a hammer.) That doesn't mean that your theory/speculation was really correct and what you think is happening is actually happening. That's the thing with the speculative world: it always remains subject to change, it always remains uncertain. It's shifty, shaky & changing. Very different from cold, hard, solid empirical facts on their own, which always remain the same. The "naked truth" in the flesh and right in front of your eyes! Empirical facts don't care one bit about what you "think" is causing them, whether it's an all-knowing, all-seing Bearded Man in the sky who is moving invisible strings since He created the universe or some tiny and capricious invisible particles in perpetual vibration & motion since always... it's totally meaningless to them. They just "are" and will continue to "be" quite undisturbed by what you choose to believe is causing them. Better to just accept them and move on
    Yes, you don't see me saying otherwise! How's my reading & comprehension doing still? Where have I said otherwise? Facts can be sset from philosophers who studied philosophy of the natural World, SAW that you can imitate this, and EVENTUALLY over trial & error I would of course assume took place, led them to the final result, THUS FACTl but STILL ESOTERIC, hidden from SWINE, etc.

    Esoteric!


    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    So they are "missing a very important ingredient" for which you and in fact nobody else in this world has the slightest shred of evidence that it actually exists... Amazing! It's obvious that you still do not understand the fundamental difference between "speculation" and "facts".
    Well you can speak for yourself here buddy, like the alchemist say, and like I say, they don't reveal this kind of thing to the masses. They give us our book for guidance, something you and I just won't come to terms with.

    Don't think that just because there's internet, every single mystery that exists will be unmasked in a blink of an eye. Like i said, caught up, the World is still catching up with certain things, Alchemy, included. People just don't know things, because its gained attention. It needs to be investigated. I could easily flip this right back at you, and say, if alchemy is an accidental phenomenon not natural, bound to be found doing the right mish mashing, the stone would have been found, out of EVERYONE before us, and out of the BILLIONS that live among us now, so why hasn't it been found and made known to every single person on this planet?

    Nature is simple. Simple is overrated these days, that's why it's overlooked, this is why the Alchemists made it look so complicated with imagery and a bunch of words... To veil it, to make people think that its complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    What "God"? First you need to prove that "He" actually even exists before you can determine whether he likes to play dice or not! You are still lost in the labyrinthine and shaky world of PURE SPECULATION. Free yourself from its chains! Trust empirical facts, nothing else. Everything else is uncertain. And it always will be.
    Well, how do you know I haven't proved it? I don't need to prove it to you, and quite frankly, I wouldn't know how, but like facts, things remain as is, regardless of what you think of it. He may be there, he may not be, to you. Can't wait for the science community to come prove this concept for you JDP.

    Not all facts are known widespread across the globe. Some are kept within certain communities, not being revealed to the public, this doesn't stop it from remaining as a known fact, but kept in small circles like esoteric knowledge. Do you know the step by step instructions on how to make an atomic bomb without fail, JDP?

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Again, you obviously don't understand the fundamental difference between "facts" and "theory/speculation/conjecture". It is the theories that will take you nowhere. You also show that you have a great deal of difficulty understanding analogies and what is being explained. If you do not have any book telling you how TNT is actually made, and some malicious chemist comes around and tells you "it is made from ketchup and beer; keep trying and you will succeed, and if you don't, blame yourself, not us!" it is easy to predict that you will endlessly waste your time & money trying to make it from those substances, no matter how much of chemistry's theories you actually have learnt. What good will knowing such things like "electron orbits" and "valences" do you in order to learn from what actual substances and methods is that explosive actually made? None. In the same manner, learning such things as how the alchemists thought that minerals and metals were "made" inside the "bowels of the earth" from long interactions of PURELY SPECULATIVE "mercurial" & "sulfureous" "principles" will not help you one bit in knowing from what actual substances and processes they actually composed the Stone. If it was otherwise, then virtually every intelligent person would eventually have discovered the whole thing by now, since the alchemists made no secret whatsoever about their theoretical ruminations. They did not help anyone get any closer to the actual facts, though.
    Slow down, at least take me out for a drink first, we barely know each other, and I don't say much, but I do address things that I feel would be a good discussion.

    A fact is something that is known to exist or happened, proven and is indisputable.

    A theory is an idea, not yet proven, and not entirely known to have taken place

    Btw, TNT is not a natural phenomenon so I don't know why you're bringing this up to someone who believes Alchemy is a natural science. It is NOT a fair comparison to the NATURAL phenomenon that ACTUALLY DOES EMPIRICALLY TAKE PLACE IN NATURE ex; solve et coagula, putrefaction, distillation, all operations of alchemy written over and over, and all naturally take place in nature. Macrocosm > Microcosm -


    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    You also show that you have a great deal of difficulty understanding analogies and what is being explained.
    This... is your speculation, right, person with no stone?
    Last edited by tAlchemist; 10-22-2018 at 10:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tAlchemist View Post
    Nature does make the stone. The very reason why man intervenes is because many different winds, temperatures, animals, bugs, MANY NOISE takes place, all we do is give it a controlled and suitable environment to naturally grow UNDISTURBED.

    If you think that the alchemical texts are equivalent to ketchup & beer then why do you read them? What is there to learn from ketchup & beer in pursuit of the stone? If alchemists are misleading, what are you doing reading their books?

    How many authors do you feel are authentic? I have yet to see you suggest that any author may have likely confected the stone, it's usually you saying that the very authors you read that they're off the mark... How do you know this? How do you come to this conclusion, without understanding Alchemical Principals?

    Hermes advise us to look into nature, the author of Emerald Tablet said that. Okay, I'll look into nature. Solve & Coagula... What does this mean? Do ponds stay there forever and ever or do they eventually congeal over time and form into earth? I've seen this kind of thing, but I didn't stand there and wait until it happens, I FIRST understood this in my mind, when trying to understand NATURAL Alchemical Principals. So much for ''Theory & Speculation gets you nowhere fast'' huh?

    Isaac Hollandus says: 1. In the Vegetable Work there is much coagulating, dissolving, and rectifying to well prepare the spirits so that they do not fly away - Volatile? (doesn't this ALL happen in nature? dissolving, rectifying (evolution, distillation, coagulate, break down)

    2. If you lose the natural moisture at the beginning, your work will become too dry in its composition (Gee, look at the Sahara Desert, does it look the same as say, a Rain Forest, or the Jungle? How many avenues have you investigated when it comes to the natural path JDP? Does everything occur in everyone's flask, look exactly the same to you, of course not, because not everyone is imitating or doing the exact same thing, this is why different parts of nature look different in the macrocosm); or if it loses some Spirit of Air in the distillation due to a faulty vessel or leak in the luting, you will lose your high projection. If you lose some in the Fire, your medicine will not tincture much and will also lose its ability to ingress. If it has too much Air, it will fly away, if it has too much Water, the Spirits will drown so that it cannot be fixed, If it has too much Earth, it will be to dry, so that it can neither melt no have ingress. Therefore the work of the separation of the Elements involves a great deal of concerns, as many mistakes can occur.

    great ingenuity!




    Oh really now, what does the word esoteric mean to you? I've had several astral projection experiences, very vivid, indisputable, to me, but I don't think the rest of the World has totally caught up with this phenomenon. Alchemy isn't discovered, it's being investigated, sought after, to be understood, right? Well, the secret solvent isn't a proven concept, so why are you investigating? You can't wait for the science community to figure things out for you, JDP, you have to discover things on your own! With this way of thinking, MANY things would have not been discovered, because everyone else is waiting for the other person to find something out for them, so that they can ''investigate''. Ingenuity is something the science community is not quite getting when it comes to alchemy!

    Also, read again here: The very reason why man intervenes is because many different winds, temperatures, animals, bugs, MANY NOISE takes place, all we do is give it a controlled and suitable environment to naturally grow UNDISTURBED

    Even a baby needs proper conditions, this is critical otherwise death! Some things need a more controlled environment, like you and me, and a polar bear, we are still naturally occurring, but require different natural conditions like many other natural things this is why I say, you have to know what it is you're looking for to give it the proper kind of condition. This is why I say theory and philosophy as well! Nature is evident around us, but not understood, not even Nature is Empirically Factual in many regards.

    Authors say that the phenomenon is natural. What author says otherwise, that you feel is genuine?



    Yes, you don't see me saying otherwise! How's my reading & comprehension doing still? Where have I said otherwise? Facts can be sset from philosophers who studied philosophy of the natural World, SAW that you can imitate this, and EVENTUALLY over trial & error I would of course assume took place, led them to the final result, THUS FACTl but STILL ESOTERIC, hidden from SWINE, etc.

    Esoteric!




    Well you can speak for yourself here buddy, like the alchemist say, and like I say, they don't reveal this kind of thing to the masses. They give us our book for guidance, something you and I just won't come to terms with.

    Don't think that just because there's internet, every single mystery that exists will be unmasked in a blink of an eye. Like i said, caught up, the World is still catching up with certain things, Alchemy, included. People just don't know things, because its gained attention. It needs to be investigated. I could easily flip this right back at you, and say, if alchemy is an accidental phenomenon not natural, bound to be found doing the right mish mashing, the stone would have been found, out of EVERYONE before us, and out of the BILLIONS that live among us now, so why hasn't it been found and made known to every single person on this planet?

    Nature is simple. Simple is overrated these days, that's why it's overlooked, this is why the Alchemists made it look so complicated with imagery and a bunch of words... To veil it, to make people think that its complicated.



    Well, how do you know I haven't proved it? I don't need to prove it to you, and quite frankly, I wouldn't know how, but like facts, things remain as is, regardless of what you think of it. He may be there, he may not be, to you. Can't wait for the science community to come prove this concept for you JDP.

    Not all facts are known widespread across the globe. Some are kept within certain communities, not being revealed to the public, this doesn't stop it from remaining as a known fact, but kept in small circles like esoteric knowledge. Do you know the step by step instructions on how to make an atomic bomb without fail, JDP?



    Slow down, at least take me out for a drink first, we barely know each other, and I don't say much, but I do address things that I feel would be a good discussion.

    A fact is something that is known to exist or happened, proven and is indisputable.

    A theory is an idea, not yet proven, and not entirely known to have taken place

    Btw, TNT is not a natural phenomenon so I don't know why you're bringing this up to someone who believes Alchemy is a natural science. It is NOT a fair comparison to the NATURAL phenomenon that ACTUALLY DOES EMPIRICALLY TAKE PLACE IN NATURE ex; solve et coagula, putrefaction, distillation, all operations of alchemy written over and over, and all naturally take place in nature. Macrocosm > Microcosm -




    This... is your speculation, right, person with no stone?
    Thanks for proving my point that you don't understand analogies very well, and that you need to work on your reading & comprehension. Your "replies" show this very nicely.

    PS: no, nature still doesn't make the Stone, anymore than it makes TNT, or ketchup or beer, for that matter. These are all ARTIFICIAL products of man's industry. If nature made any of them, we would have already found them in a natural setting somewhere, where nature has been at work undisturbed for eons. But it has never happened, and it will never happen. Nature has neither the need nor the proper conditions and places for such artificial productions to happen. It is man who makes it possible for such things to be produced by making the right materials react, and in the proper conditions and places. Nature out of its own accord will never make them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Thanks for proving my point that you don't understand analogies very well, and that you need to work on your reading & comprehension. Your "replies" show this very nicely.

    PS: no, nature still doesn't make the Stone, anymore than it makes TNT, or ketchup or beer, for that matter. These are all ARTIFICIAL products of man's industry. If nature made any of them, we would have already found them in a natural setting somewhere, where nature has been at work undisturbed for eons. But it has never happened, and it will never happen. Nature has neither the need nor the proper conditions and places for such artificial productions to happen. It is man who makes it possible for such things to be produced by making the right materials react, and in the proper conditions and places. Nature out of its own accord will never make them.
    Do you have any alchemical texts that backup your point?

    Too many texts speak about nature, and philosophy, but instead you ignore this and think the alchemists are being misleading but for some unknown reason, you decide to believe the one thing that they are saying... That there's a secret solvent. If alchemists are being misleading, and sending everyone on the wrong path, and that you don't believe them when they say that the work is but a NATURAL one, then why do you believe anything that comes from their books?

    It's like, someone tells you that if you want a million dollars, you'll have to find where they live, and they'll guide you to this specific place, but instead, you ignore their guidance thinking that they're being misleading.

    The million dollars is an analogy for the secret solvent. The alchemical texts are our guidance, but you ignore this, and only believe that there's actually someone handing out a million dollars i.e secret solvent.

    I'll stress this again.

    If you don't believe the alchemists, or authors, why do you think there's a secret solvent in the first place?

    If you knew what the stone is, you would realize that the stone is made by nature. No amount of mish mashing will produce a stone, a secret solvent turning things to gold and granting you immortality, this path will take you nowhere fast, prove me wrong!
    Last edited by tAlchemist; 10-23-2018 at 08:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tAlchemist View Post
    Do you have any alchemical texts that backup your point?

    Too many texts speak about nature, and philosophy, but instead you ignore this and think the alchemists are being misleading but for some unknown reason, you decide to believe the one thing that they are saying... That there's a secret solvent. If alchemists are being misleading, and sending everyone on the wrong path, and that you don't believe them when they say that the work is but a NATURAL one, then why do you believe anything that comes from their books?

    It's like, someone tells you that if you want a million dollars, you'll have to find where they live, and they'll guide you to this specific place, but instead, you ignore their guidance thinking that they're being misleading.

    The million dollars is an analogy for the secret solvent. The alchemical texts are our guidance, but you ignore this, and only believe that there's actually someone handing out a million dollars i.e secret solvent.

    I'll stress this again.

    If you don't believe the alchemists, or authors, why do you think there's a secret solvent in the first place?

    If you knew what the stone is, you would realize that the stone is made by nature. No amount of mish mashing will produce a stone, a secret solvent turning things to gold and granting you immortality, this path will take you nowhere fast, prove me wrong!
    Again with your faulty logic and false analogies: would someone really make it easy for you to get a million dollars??? Aha, didn't think so! Same thing with alchemy. That's why they have obfuscated some parts of the subject, the more important ones, viz. the ones that have to do with what substances to use, their proportions, and the methods of handling them. The theories they haven't, they explain them in very plain language. That should tell you something.

    The main reason why the alchemists can't be trusted regarding the whole "nature" thingy is simply because of logic and common sense: WE CAN PLAINLY SEE THAT NATURE DOES NOT MAKE ANYTHING REMOTELY LIKE THE STONE. Do we need any more facts/evidence??? That by itself is already screaming at you that such claims are nothing but pure lip service to a "philosophical" fantasy. The alchemists were infatuated with nature and tried to make it look as if they were "imitating" it, but it's all nonsense. Nature does NOT operate like the alchemists. It doesn't have their instruments, and it doesn't have their capacity for reasoning and deduction. The alchemist manipulates matter in a very different manner than nature. On other hand, the alchemists didn't have the slightest idea about what nature was supposedly doing inside the "bowels of the earth" to allegedly make metals. In another thread I cited the work of Lucas Rodargirus, where he openly admits that no one has actually been "down there" to see what's actually going on (but Rodargirus is not willing to let go of these theoretical fantasies so easily, so, in order to save them then claims that "God" has put this "knowledge" in the heads of the alchemists and that's why they know what supposedly happens down there... LOL!) Today we have gone deeper into the "bowels of the earth" than anyone at the time of the alchemists, and we still see no shred of evidence for their theories of metallogenesis. Again, learn to separate facts from speculations/conjectures/theories. You need to deal with the subject CRITICALLY & REALISTICALLY. Do not swallow everything the alchemists say as if its was some sort of "Divine Command", because you will inevitably be lost.

    I know that transmutation is a fact (and I do not mean by the cumbersome and woefully inefficient methods of modern physics, with their "particle accelerators/smashers", a dinosaur that gives birth to a microbe... I mean by actual reactions between some substances, which give more tangible results; I do not need any complicated machines to detect the small amounts of artificial silver or gold produced, I can plainly see them with my naked eyes!), and I don't need any secret solvent to tell me this. The techniques of transmutational chymistry will prove the reality of transmutation to anyone willing to invest the time & money to research them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    I know that transmutation is a fact (and I do not mean by the cumbersome and woefully inefficient methods of modern physics, with their "particle accelerators/smashers", a dinosaur that gives birth to a microbe... I mean by actual reactions between some substances, which give more tangible results; I do not need any complicated machines to detect the small amounts of artificial silver or gold produced, I can plainly see them with my naked eyes!)
    Okay, you believe in transmutation, but this doesn't answer the question as to why you believe there's a secret solvent (philosopher's stone)in the first place, which you learned about from the very mouths that speak of pure misguidance and deception.

    Is believing in a secret solvent, as described by the alchemists, and believing in the perfect chemical reactions that youve seen thus far the same as The Stone? Sounds like two different things, I suppose particle accelerators in this regard, is a secret solvent, which it isn't but still produces gold.

    What are some of your favorite authors you feel are genuine JDP?

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