Patrons of the Sacred Art

Can't log in? Contact Us

OPEN TO REGISTER: Click HERE if you want to join Alchemy Forums!

+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 37

Thread: Morning Star

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    941
    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post

    Compare the ingredient of the three vaisseaus. I find it pretty interesting and revealing, considering certain methods that are often discussed when talking about the Fulcanelli lineage.
    To get a little more practical, this recent post by Hellin might have something to do with our topic here.

    http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showt...rual-(Solvent)

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    941
    Thanks Coleridgean!
    So you and Dom Pernety seem to back me up about what I suspected about the hollow oak.

    Note that the ship masts on those two pictures we are talking about, can be interpreted as (oak) trees as well.

    It may actually be that when discussing the different symbols, Fulcanelli is talking about one and the same process though. And this topic we are talking about seems to be dealt with the most. For example he usually writes much less when it comes to the stage of going through the colors.
    Last edited by Florius Frammel; 10-26-2018 at 04:35 AM.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,538
    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    A lot of texts suggest to follow a star. Especially the morning star, or the "north" star.

    Interestingly in roman mythology Lucifer, the bringer of light, also called "Demiurg" in some believe systems is a personification of the morning star.

    Etymologically lucifer means "carrier of light".

    Lucifer is the same like the greek Phosphorus, the bringer of the Aurora Consurgens, or the golden dawn. Venus is sometimes called lucifer too, sometimes as lucifer's spouse or lover.

    Those mostly positive connotation of the pre-christian era were adopted by the early christians.
    But the jews identified the morning star as a fallen angel and an enemy of israel.
    Maybe you are getting a bit mixed up with a lot of things?

    -The Morning Star (Venus) and the North Star (Polaris) are two different "objects" in the Heaven... whilst the "North Star" can be used to follow a direction (i.e, the north), Venus has not really been used that way (nor any of the planets actually).

    -It is somehow a mistake to begin with Latin ("Lucifer") as to understand the myth... even if "lucifer" means carrier of light (not even etymologically, in Latin that's the literal meaning)...

    -The Roman religion, which was of course extremely influenced by the Greek religion was incredibly weird (weird as in "a very strange exception"). Most Religions that adopt a planetary way will often create a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses which is often ruled by the Sun and sometimes the Sun and the Moon... but in those two cases, it is Jupiter, which is VERY strange, a weird exception. However, several of the Greek Myths were certainly Stellar... Newton has a marvelous essay about it: http://www.argonauts-book.com/isaac-newton.html

    -"Lucifer" doesn't really exist in the Jewish religion... even less as an "evil figure" or "fallen angel". There is an extremely WEIRD translation of a parable that is in isaiah 14....
    The Jewish religion was, of course, very influenced by the Canaanite religion, which was by far more Stellar than Planetary... and Venus was considered a somehow evil God, but not exactly "evil"... the ruler of the underworld. The "good" Gods were Stellar and Venus was perceived as the "brightest star" that wanted to go to the North with the Gods, but could not do it... so even if it managed to shine a lot (sometimes, because it has cycles just like the Moon), it didn't manage to do it and it was by far less constant than the most "powerful" Gods that had a constant shine (of course, it is a planet, not a Star).
    SOME parts of this myth managed to get into a Parable in the book of Isaiah... but it is not really a depiction of Venus as a "fallen angel" at all, but truly a comparison.
    They certainly didn't like the king of Babylon, so there is a comparison there... somehow mocking the King.
    The literal translation of Isaiah 14:12 would be "Shiny-one, son of the morning" (HYLL BN SHThR / HaLeL BeN ShaHaR), which is an obvious reference to Venus... But the whole parable is unrelated to "fallen angels", but mostly similar to a "The King of Babylon thought that he was very powerful and conquered many nations in a very violent way and thought that he was like a God, but in the long run he was just like Venus, which shines a lot, but his shine vanished, just like the shine of Venus vanishes".
    So it's not really a "character" in the Old Testament (Satan is a "character" for sure, but not "HYLL" or "Halel" is certainly not one). There is also some "controversy" about the meaning of "Halel", which is literally the noun for the verb "shine" ("Shiny-One" would be a decent translation, "carrier of the light" is not). It is unknown if "Halel" was a name for Venus, or is it becomes "Venus" ONLY when it is used in a phrase that denotes it (i.e, "Shiny-one, son of the morning").

    -I don't think the alchemists or anyone was confused between "Venus" and the "North Star"... they are two absolutely different things. Whilst some Christian sources understood that "Venus" was "Lucifer" and "evil"... no Christian sources identified the "North Star" with anything "evil".

    Then again... your thread made me get curious about something:
    Which one is the first source that clearly identifies the Planets with Metals? (as in Venus = Copper, Sun = Gold, etc)

    Other than that, it is also interesting to see how a lot of alchemical texts somehow discard this correlation between planets and metals and return to a more "mythical Greek" understanding and relate the planets to processes or phases, but not really Metals (i.e, in several texts Bacstrom identifies Venus with the Albedo phase, but he doesn't suggest "copper" at all... but that's just an example among many).

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    941
    Hi zoas,

    both the morning star (most often venus) and the north star (polaris) used to be important heavenly bodies in alchemy. I did not say they are one and the same, but seen as possible candidates to follow. Note that there are two stars in Canseliet's pic as well.

    The following of the morning star may not have been practical for sailors, but it was an important symbol for the alchemists anyway, indicating an important step in the great work and therefore a sign worth to follow.
    It makes sense to connect it with the albedo imo, as it is an important sign after the blackness of the night.

    There are even more possible candidates like the star of bethlehem, of vitriol I posted previously too, or for some "followers" of the antimony path it's star regulus and quite some others more.

    Thanks for helping to clarify this.

    Why should it be inappropriate to begin with latin / roman mythology? I just gave a suggestion from where this "bringer of light", "lucifer" figure may have come from in it's relation to alchemy. It was definately there and connected with the morning star. I can't see how it helps to show that in other times this connection hasn't been made. Of course it hasn't. It seemed to originate from the roman myths.

    BTW, for two month each year, Jupiter is the brightest "star" in the morning sky (and can therefore be connected to "lucifer" as well). Therefore it is not that strange to me that the greeks (and the romans) followed Zeus/Jupiter and the christians "Jesus", whose name is a derivation from Zeus/Jupiter. This connection I already mentioned in a previous post too.

    Also I'm no expert in jewish mythology. A connection of lucifer/morning star/fallen angel(s) I read here for example:
    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar.../10177-lucifer

    I got that "enemy of israel" connotation from another (german) source. The origin of this interpretation is Jesaja/Isaia 14,12. The same you mentioned in your post.
    Last edited by Florius Frammel; 10-27-2018 at 02:34 AM.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post

    BTW, for two month each year, Jupiter is the brightest "star" in the morning sky (and can therefore be connected to "lucifer" as well).
    Not quite. Before the Greeks knew that Venus as Morning Star and Venus as Evening Star were one and the same, they assigned them two different names - Hesperus (Latin Vesper) for the evening star Venus and Eosphoros (Latin Lucifer) for the Morning Star Venus. Venus is unique among the planets as it takes precisely 8 earth years to make exactly 5 oppositions (roughly between Earth and the sun) with Earth and thus forms a pentagram in space if you trace it out. It spends exactly half its time as THE morning star and half its time as THE evening star and is only one or the other but never both. Jupiter is the second brightest planet in the night sky and though it has been called morning star it should not be mistaken with Eosphoros, Lucifer, the Light-Bringer

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    60
    Your link here http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar.../10177-lucifer is interesting because it conflates Lucifer with Semyaza/ Azazel of the Book of Enoch (3 copies of which were found by explorer James Bruce in Ethiopia in 1773 but extant fragments called the Book of the Watchers was a MAJOR motif of alchemy and Hermeticism in the preceding centuries) In fact, the Watchers of the Book of Enoch - the 200 fallen angels as it goes - were widely accepted to have given the knowledge of alchemy to humanity. Hermann Boerhave makes that claim in the mid 18th century. Georg Von Welling devotes an entire chapter to the "Sons of God" of Genesis 6 in his Opus Mago-Cabbalisticum et Theosophicum.

    My personal opinion is that the incredibly rare Venus Transit of 1769, which literally gave birth to Lucifer as the symbol (Venus passed over the disk of the sun as Vesper and then out the other side as Lucifer) and corresponded within weeks of the birth of Napoleon (who raided Egypt for the lost secrets) was the birth of the Enlightenment (the Illumination). This Transit was special because it was accompanied by a total eclipse of the sun and fulfilled several alchemical prophecies encoded in Theatrum Chemicum Britannicum. The symbolism is quite strong because it reflects the tragedy of Prometheus, who was dark, then stole the fire from the sun, and now is a light in the sky.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    941
    Quote Originally Posted by Coleridgean View Post
    Not quite. Before the Greeks knew that Venus as Morning Star and Venus as Evening Star were one and the same, they assigned them two different names - Hesperus (Latin Vesper) for the evening star Venus and Eosphoros (Latin Lucifer) for the Morning Star Venus. Venus is unique among the planets as it takes precisely 8 earth years to make exactly 5 oppositions (roughly between Earth and the sun) with Earth and thus forms a pentagram in space if you trace it out. It spends exactly half its time as THE morning star and half its time as THE evening star and is only one or the other but never both. Jupiter is the second brightest planet in the night sky and though it has been called morning star it should not be mistaken with Eosphoros, Lucifer, the Light-Bringer
    Again, there must be different viewpoints. A quick google search showed a lot of jupiter - lucifer references. The following link may not suit as a "classical" source, but it's enough to show you what I mean, I guess:

    https://gnosticwarrior.com/morning-star.html/amp

    It's imo a pretty good example of what I think Fulcanelli was doing. Describing one and the same thing with quite a lot of different symbols.

    For yet another example of what I am talking about see the Jupiter - Osiris connection mentioned by that source as well.
    There you can go to Fulcanelli's black madonna (Isis, Osiris' spouse, see also oedipus and Freud) carrying baby Jesus. Another symbological connection.

    Last edited by Florius Frammel; 10-27-2018 at 07:17 AM.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,538
    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    both the morning star (most often venus) and the north star (polaris) used to be important heavenly bodies in alchemy. I did not say they are one and the same, but seen as possible candidates to follow. Note that there are two stars in Canseliet's pic as well.
    O.K... The first sentence of your first post was a bit confusing, so it was a clarification, but you already knew and it was simply a sentence that was somehow confusing.
    But, yes, it is important to understand that Venus and Polaris are quite unrelated... even in a mythological way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    The following of the morning star may not have been practical for sailors, but it was an important symbol for the alchemists anyway, indicating an important step in the great work and therefore a sign worth to follow.
    I certainly agree with you there.
    Anyway, this is something that you know, but as a clarification: the expressions used in alchemy change a lot from author to author... so following an expression in many authors can often be misleading. So the context matters a lot... because nobody is "right" or "wrong" when it comes to the use of a term (and quite often the point is to find out what X author means when he uses a term... which another author can be using in an absolutely different way).

    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    It makes sense to connect it with the albedo imo, as it is an important sign after the blackness of the night.
    All the texts that I remember that do such thing were written after the XV century, which makes a lot of sense because of something that is very related to something that you included in your first post... Botticelli's Birth of Venus.
    Marsilio Ficino and Pico della Mirandola (and others) began to merge the Greek-Roman myths with the Christian myths and somehow invented a correspondence of symbols.
    Venus (the Goddess) became quite similar to the Virgin Mary... and this correspondence created something quite weird, which is merging something very "erotic" with something that has to be "virgin"... the Venusian paintings of the Pagan-Christian phase of Botticelli are a perfect example. Venus in the Chemical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz is another perfect example (the discussion about Andrade claiming that it was simply a joke or not doesn't matter)... but it is a very curious amalgam. I have no doubts that, among other things, Botticelli was painting an allegory of the immaculate conception (i.e, the birth of Mary without the original sin).

    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    Why should it be inappropriate to begin with latin / roman mythology? I just gave a suggestion from where this "bringer of light", "lucifer" figure may have come from in it's relation to alchemy. It was definately there and connected with the morning star. I can't see how it helps to show that in other times this connection hasn't been made. Of course it hasn't. It seemed to originate from the roman myths.
    Hmmmm... It's very subjective, Florius... I think it is a mistake, but I get your point. We are both right probably.
    No big news for you... Both the Roman myths and the "Latin Christianism" are mostly translations of previous sources... So it makes sense to me to visit those other sources.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    BTW, for two month each year, Jupiter is the brightest "star" in the morning sky (and can therefore be connected to "lucifer" as well). Therefore it is not that strange to me that the greeks (and the romans) followed Zeus/Jupiter and the christians "Jesus", whose name is a derivation from Zeus/Jupiter. This connection I already mentioned in a previous post too.
    I don't really see "Jesus" or "iesus" as derivations from Zeus, I only see a transliteration.
    Though I (and probably everyone) would agree with you if you have said "God" (Deus) as a derivation from "Zeus". Anyway, it's not that it really matters.
    The case of the Greek and Roman Religion is always incredibly weird for me... even if your explanation makes sense, it is still the ONLY "planetary" Religion I can remember that makes Jupiter become the "boss"... the Sun and the Moon are quite typical, but Jupiter... I can't think of any other Religion that worked that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    Also I'm no expert in jewish mythology. A connection of lucifer/morning star/fallen angel(s) I read here for example:
    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar.../10177-lucifer
    I like to understand the old Religions, there is always something to learn by understanding the logic they had (or still have in some cases).
    The idea of Lucifer comes from Latin sources (specially the Vulgate and previous Latin translations)... but there isn't a "Lucifer" in the Jewish religion, nor I see anything similar. All I see is a comparison between a King that wanted to be powerful, but in the long term he "failed" and a planet that shines a lot, but can't be as amazing as a Star.
    As to use another parable, all I see is a text that tries to insult someone in the same way that we could insult a musician by writing a review that says: "He believes that he sounds like Mozart, but he sounds like Liberace!"... and several centuries later this review is found by another person and this other person understand that "Liberace" was maybe an abstract concept that represented something incredibly metaphysical in the XX and XXI century.
    Of course, that's my interpretation and it can be discussed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    I got that "enemy of israel" connotation from another (german) source. The origin of this interpretation is Jesaja/Isaia 14,12. The same you mentioned in your post.
    Well, yes... But there's no need to be an expert in anything.
    Isaiah 14:3-27 is truly a very simple rant against a deceased king of Babylon and it is mostly political and filled with insults... and the main message is mostly (in a very coloquial way) "The king of Babylon was evil and he conquered many nations and he thought that he was very powerful, but now he is dead and he was a powerless idiot... and there are other kings who were very cool, but the one from Babylon was truly a douchebag"... and in the middle of that rant there are many comparisons, ONE of them is comparing him to Venus as something that wants to be as amazing as a Star, but is definitely not "so amazing" (because it shines a lot, but then it doesn't shine anymore... it has cycles).
    So the (deceased) king of Babylon is certainly identified as an "enemy of Israel"... but I do not really see there that "Venus" is identified as an enemy too (I only see a comparison or metaphor that involves some mockery... but quite similar to what I said about making a comparison between X classical musician and Liberace as a way to mock the musician).

    Anyway... there's not much speculation here. Just read Isaiah 14:3-27 in any English translation and replace the word "Lucifer" for "shiny-one" or "venus" and you will probably agree with what I am saying, because it is quite obvious in the text.

    _________________________

    As for the "alchemical meaning", which is the main subject of the thread... I truly think that it makes a lot of sense to see what different authors say about "the star" and which "star" they are talking about (or if it is simply an unidentified "star")... because sometimes the juxtaposition of texts doesn't really show many layers of a "hidden meaning", but absolutely different meanings (and sometimes not!).

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    941
    For a start I'd like to stick with Fulcanelli. He is collecting symbols from older books anyway.

    But thanks Zoas!
    I think I know what star (among some others) he wants us to follow. The thread title "morning star" is interchangeable with St. Christopherus, lucifer, font, sea shell, Isis, Mary, Venus, crucifix/crucible, cathedral, dauphin/dolphin, vaisseau, ship,..it's the "carrier principle" imo.

    As a practical start one could look up what material sea shells and (some) cathedrals are made of.

    Of course that doesn't mean everything on this list is right, or that the symbols don't have other meanings (intended by Fulcanelli) as well.
    Last edited by Florius Frammel; 10-27-2018 at 10:10 AM.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    60
    The crucible is symbolic itself as a chamber in which to Cross two substances (like the two right-angled lines of a cross) - the philosophical mercury and the philosophical sulfur - in order to achieve the Great Work.

    Mary can have meaning as a kind of chamber in the Balneo Maria (Bain Marie or bath)

    Dom Pernety has this about seashells (translated to English by Martin Rulandus):
    NAPORAN A Seashell whence the colour Purple is obtained. The Adepts have occasionally applied this name to their Sulphur because it possesses this colour

    And of course it is Venus in Rosenkreutz that Consummates the union of Bridegroom and bride / King and Queen / Philosophical Sulphur and Philosophical Mercury. The riddle was solved about the copper engraving on the door to her chamber.

    So yes Venus IS the vessel, just as all of these references are to a type of vessel, which is ultimately representative of the egg, hermetically sealed, in which the work takes place bringing together the male and female (sulphuric and mercurial) sperms so to speak

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts