Calcium

[Dragon's Tail]

Thank you Kibric so much for sharing your wonderful experiment. It sounds quite exciting to find a red substance in something simple. Of course, those are always the exciting experiments when you find something amazing from an elegantly simple process.

Then again, I find that these wonderful curios tend to be fickle, especially when one doesn't have a proper working knowledge of the process, that of course is where experimentation comes in, and practice.

I think this is wonderful, and I'll put in a vote now for a sticky. Such a great thread.

I do have one question, and this pertains to the milk. Have you found that store-bought milk works for this process, or does one need to go straight to the cow, so to speak? You didn't mention cream separation specifically, so I wonder if off-the-shelf milk here in the US would work, as it has been treated with heat and atomized to ensure that there are no fat globules contained in it that can "stick" together to make a cream layer. Not sure if things are similar where you are located. There is a source of "real" milk not far from me, and I'm sure my friends down the road would be happy to get me some on their next run, but it would be easier to just snatch some up after work from the local market.

[crestind]

My question is, did the ancients know that bones were primarily composed of the same element, calcium, as disparate substances like limestone? Would be curious to see any evidence supporting such a thing.

[Kibric]

Of course, those are always the exciting experiments when you find something amazing from an elegantly simple process.

My philosophy is this. The simplest method or concoction is usually the right way.

I think this is wonderful, and I'll put in a vote now for a sticky. Such a great thread.

Thanks.

I do have one question, and this pertains to the milk. Have you found that store-bought milk works for this process, or does one need to go straight to the cow, so to speak?

Fresh is best but it doesn't really make much difference.

did the ancients know that bones were primarily composed of the same element, calcium, as disparate substances like limestone?

Hunter gatherers would break the bones of mastodons to extract the marrow to eat. They knew they had bones and marrow like the animals they hunted.
In the limestone caves they found fossilized shells and bones. They saw stalactites composed of thick dripping water.
When they put it all together and identified what was in bones,limestone,stalactites, must of been when they started heating them.
Realising they all reacted in similar ways. An exact date for this i don't know. When industrial mining came about in Sumeria, Egypt the understanding of chemistry expanded.
My guess is then. Its a very good question that needs further study.

Eating marrow appears in nearly every civilization and mythology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_marrow_(food)

Gough's Cave famously held the remains of human bones that had been butchered to extract marrow in exactly the same way as animal bones on the site had been processed.
Our modern sensibilities find the thought of cannibalism repulsive, but these people lived in a different age, Dr Bello said:
"They were a one man band; they were going out, hunting, butchering and then eating their kill. And they were extremely skilled at what they did, but then that's how they survived.
"I think the production of the skull-cups is ritualistic. If the purpose was simply to break the skulls to extract the brain to eat it, there are much easier ways to do that.
"If food was the objective, the skull would be highly fragmented. But here you can really see they tried to preserve most of the skull bone; the cut marks tell us they tried to clean the skull, taking off every piece of soft tissue so that they could then modify it very precisely. They were manufacturing something."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12478115

[Kibric]

An interesting comment about biological transmutation found on science forums.

A number of chemists report that plants, animals and human beings
ROUTINELY TRANSMUTE MID-RANGE ELEMENTS (for example, potassium into
calcium or magnesium into calcium) AS PART OF THEIR ORDINARY DAILY
METABOLISM. These transmutations obey rules such as: Mg + O => Ca; K + H
=> Ca. This is revolutionary since, according to current physical theory,
the energy levels required for such transmutations are billions of times
higher than what is available in biological systems. Equally inexplicable
fission reactions such as Ca => Mg + O; Ca => K + H are also reported.
But revolutions in physics have repeatedly occurred, such as the quantum
revolution in which the radical property of non-locality, previously
considered impossible, is now accepted by physicists (see Aspect and

Grangier 1986, Bransden and Joachain 1989, p.671-681, Chiao et al 1993,

Squires 1990, p.173, Rae 1986, p.25-44, and Penrose 1990, p.369).

What I am presenting here is not the "cold fusion" of Fleischmann and
Pons which, as far as I know, lacks clear evidence of actual fusion. Even
if the Fleischmann and Pons effect turns out to be actual fusion, it is
only the fusion of isotopes of the lightest element hydrogen under special
laboratory conditions which is quite different from the UNEQUIVOCAL FUSION
AND FISSION OF MID-RANGE elements found in biological transmutation reports.

Now let us examine the evidence for biological transmutation. Crabs,
shellfish and crayfish have shells made largely of calcium. A crab 17 cm
by 10 cm has a shell weighing around 350 grams. Periodically these animals
shed their shell and create a new one. This is called molting. When
molting, a crab is very vulnerable and hides away from all other creatures
so it can not get calcium by preying on other creatures. According to
French chemist C. Louis Kervran of the Conseil d'Hygiene in Paris, sea
water contains far too little calcium to account for the rapid production
of a shell (the calcium content of sea water is about 0.042% and a crab
can form a new shell in little more than one day). If the entire body of a
crab is analyzed for calcium, it is found to contain only enough calcium
to produce 3% of the shell (even taking into account the calcium carbonate
stored in the hepato-pancreas just before molting).
Even in water completely devoid of calcium, shellfish can still create
their calcium-bearing shells as shown by an experiment performed at the
Maritime Laboratory of Roscoff: "A crayfish was put in a sea water basin
from which calcium carbonate had been removed by precipitation; the animal
made its shell anyway." (Kervran 1972, p.58)
"Chemical analysis made on animals secreting their shells has revealed
that calcium carbonate is formed on the outer side of a membrane although
on the opposite side of the membrane, where matter enters, there is no
calcium. This fact has left specialists perplexed." (Kervran 1972, p.58)
Sea water contains a sufficient amount of magnesium to form a shell if
we accept Kervran's proposition that crabs routinely transmute magnesium
into calcium; Mg + O => Ca.
It would be interesting to put a crayfish in water devoid of both
calcium and magnesium and see if it can still create its shell.
Normal egg shells produced by hens contain calcium. Kervran (1972,
p.41) reported an experiment in which hens were confined in an area in
which there was no source of calcium and no calcium was present in their
diet. The calcium deficiency became clearly manifested after a few days
when the hens began to lay eggs with soft shells. Then purified mica
(which contains potassium) was given to the hens. Kervran (1972, p.41)
described what then transpired: "The hens jumped on the mica and began
scratching around it very rapidly, panting over it; then they rested,
rolling their heads on it, threw it into the air, and began scratching it
again. The next day eggs with normal shells (weight 7 grams) were laid.
Thus, in the 20 hours that intervened, the hens transformed a supply of
potassium into calcium. ... An experiment of this kind, using the same
mica, was undertaken with guinea-fowls over a period of forty days. The
administering of the mica was suspended three times and each time a
soft-shelled egg was laid ... ."
One might suggest that the calcium in the egg shells was borrowed from
the bones of the hens. But if this is true, why were soft eggs laid when
the mica was withheld and normal eggs laid when mica was given to the
hens? In order to avoid the conclusion that the hens transmuted potassium
into calcium, one would have to show that mica somehow stimulates a
metabolic pathway in which calcium is removed from the hen's bones and
used in the production of the egg shells. This could be completely refuted
by feeding the hens mica (and of course absolutely no calcium) for such a
long period of time that all the calcium in their bones would have been
completely exhausted. If after that time the hens still produce
calcium-bearing egg shells, we must conclude that the calcium in the egg
shells is not being taken from the bones. At that point, we seem to have
no choice but to acknowledge the transmutation of potassium into calcium
within the hens.

https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/...ct-or-fiction/

[Philosophical]

Some further thoughts I had on this.

Do you ever get our blackness in the vessel? It sounds like it goes from white straight to red. Also have you tried having the separation occur before distilling the milk? You can even do this with pasturized milk if you collect germs from outside in suitable medium like rice wash. Maybe the biological effects on the medium would have an effect on the outcome.

Hunter gatherers would break the bones of mastodons to extract the marrow to eat. They knew they had bones and marrow like the animals they hunted.
In the limestone caves they found fossilized shells and bones. They saw stalactites composed of thick dripping water.
When they put it all together and identified what was in bones,limestone,stalactites, must of been when they started heating them.
Realising they all reacted in similar ways. An exact date for this i don't know. When industrial mining came about in Sumeria, Egypt the understanding of chemistry expanded.
My guess is then. Its a very good question that needs further study.

I think this is a great point! Our ancestors may not have had the periodic table of elements but there were many methods of reasoning well before then that could have helped!

[Dragon's Tail]

Some further thoughts I had on this.
Do you ever get our blackness in the vessel?

I don't want to answer for Kibric, but it was mentioned that one path let the milk go through a black stage after the red streaks, and on to produce a white crystalline compound.

I am curious about these white crystals and any effects noted in their production, Kibric, as you seem fond of them. I'm also curious if you've tried imbibing with anything other than water distilled from milk, or if that simply worked and you've been running with it. Would be curious to see if you get similar results imbibing with distilled water.

That said, I'm sure the best way to find out is to try it myself. It's on the checklist when I have time. Might give it a go nearer to winter.

[Kibric]

Do you ever get our blackness in the vessel?

but it was mentioned that one path let the milk go through a black stage after the red streaks, and on to produce a white crystalline compound.

Yes. You can also get blackness called our Saturn, from drying the philosophical water ( oil ) as well.

As this blacknesse is called Saturn, so it is likewise called Lead. Thence Agadimon in the Turba says decoct the æs or brasse till the blacknesse which they call money comes forth, and mix well the materials of our Art, and then you will presently find blacknesse, which is the Lead of the Philosophers so much spoken of in their books

Therefore with this water or this Fire the Philosophickal Æs or Brasse must be washed from its superfluous Humors: that is, it must be dried.

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/atl11-5.html

I'm also curious if you've tried imbibing with anything other than water distilled from milk, or if that simply worked and you've been running with it. Would be curious to see if you get similar results imbibing with distilled water.

Use its partner, fatty water from milk. Regular water doesn't have the liquid crystal structure ( fatty viscous ).
You want to imbibe with its own water. Its own like or kin. Or the crystals won't melt properly.

[Seraphim]

Thanks for sharing Kibric and everyone. I didn't know milk was so interesting.

[Kibric]

Koumiss, or fermented mare's milk, and its uses in the treatment and cure of pulmonary consumption and other wasting diseases :
with an appendix on the best methods of fermenting cow's milk
Carrick, George L. - 1881
https://wellcomecollection.org/works...=eng&canvas=27

Koumiss and its use in medicine. Jagielski, Apollinaris Victor. - 1870
https://wellcomecollection.org/works/bxg6fjgb

" Milk is blood, says Dr With, that is it can take the place of food and drink and contains in the most perfect proportion, nourishing matter from all those groups which serve
as a standard for estimating the value of food. Being rich in phosphates of lime it forms the solid base of the body, the bony system, through albuminous ( nitrogenous ) ingredient
the cheesy matter or casein, it serves to form flesh, epidermal, fibrous and horny tissue.."

A dissertation on milk : In which an attempt is made to ascertain its natural use;
to investigate experimentally its general nature and properties; and to explain its effects in the cure of various diseases .
Ferris, Samuel. - 1785
https://wellcomecollection.org/works...5&langCode=eng

Galen asserted that a man lived upwards of 100 years on milk alone

Some very interesting experiments with milk and blood in this dissertation, page 113 onward.

A treatise of the extraordinary virtues and effects of asses milk, in the cure of various diseases,
particularly the gout, scurvy, and nervous disorders; and of its peculiar nourishing and restorative
qualities in all consumptive disorders, and even the decays of old age ...
Hoffmann, Friedrich. - 1754
https://wellcomecollection.org/works...0&langCode=eng

" And so great is this efficacy, that any person
who has taken poison, by a reasonable use
of milk in a proper method and quantity
will be sure to escape immediate death and recover
perfect health. On which account it may be
reasonably questioned whether there be any
more ready and prevel;and antidote to
be found in the whole works of nature.
And the most ancient and ear;y writers
in medicine both knew and described
the certain virtue of milk against poisons.
Diofcorides, the most ancient writer concerning
this materia medica says that milk
if fresh and new, is serviceable against
corrosion's and inflammations.."

" If we enquire into the
treatment of diseases themselves
It will appear that milk was frequently
and successfully employed against them, from
numberlefs testimonies and examples
to be found in many late authors,
in common with those ancient physicians
Hippocrates, galen, celfus and the Arabian writers
This will be more largely illustrated when we proceed
to asses milk. At present let it suffice to produce
what we read in Martian, " that heretofore milk
was esteemed and sacred anchor and foundations
of all remedies, so that there was scarce any diftemper
in which milk was not made use off "
The fame is attested by Jo Jac Wepfer, an
eminent author and noble ornament of
the faculty among the dutch.
" there is surely some divine quality
belonging to milk, formerly i could not
have believed it, had i not had convincing experience
if it. Mine own eyes ave seen men intirely
renewed by it.. "

Eryphon as Herodotus relates, relied altogether on asses milk for restoring old and emaciated people

Cant find this guy, anyone ever heard of him ?.

Pliny the Elder, Natural History .
CHAP. 50. (12.)—
REMEDIES FOR DISEASES OF THE FACE.

" It is generally believed that asses'
milk effaces wrinkles in the face,
renders the skin more delicate,
and preserves its whiteness:
and it is a well-known fact,
that some women are in
the habit of washing their face with it seven
[Note] hundred times daily, strictly
observing that number. Poppæa,
the wife of the Emperor Nero,
was the first to practise this; indeed,
she had sitting-baths, prepared
solely with asses' milk, for
which purpose whole troops of she-asses
[Note] used to attend her on her journies.
[Note] Purulent eruptions on the face are
removed by an application of butter,
but white lead, mixed with the butter,
is an improvement. Pure butter,
alone, is used for serpiginous eruptions
of the face, a layer of barley-meal being pow-
dered over it. The caul of a cow that has just
calved, is applied, while still moist,
to ulcers of the face. "

The new good samaritan : Or, Domestic practical physician; extracted chiefly from the medical essays of the learned academies in Europe.
To which is prefixed a physiological account of pulses. Of the properties and virtues of milk, as an animal fluid, as food, and as a medicine.
Freeman, Stephen, M.D. - 1780
https://wellcomecollection.org/works/ergad9pc

" It is also certain that men may live years
feeding upon milk alone and performs all the actions
of life, and have all the solid and fluid parts
of their bodies perfectly elaborated,
the serum therefore the blood, the lymph,
the spirits, bones, cartilages, membranes and
veffels, proceed from milk, and if a man
may live many years upon milk alone, milk must
contain in itself the matter of all the parts of the
human body. "

" neither the smell nor taste, nor the dropping
new milk into the eye, manifests any acid alcaline
or saline matter to be contained in it.
if milk be heated and successively mixed with
pure volatile and fixed alcali, there arises
no effervescence which shews any acidity
but the milk grows somewhat thick and turbid.
To other parcels of the same milk add the acid
spirit of vinegar, or nitre of salt,and of vitriol,
and they make no effervescence, so as to manifest
the milk to the alcaline, but thicken and coagulate it.
but upon mixing milk, to which oil of tartar
per deliquium was poured, with some oil of vitriol
there immediately arises a violent effervescence
and much greater than the same quantity of
alcali was added to pure oil of vitriol.
If new milk be digested in a glass alembic with a fire
about 150 degrees, there comes over an
aqueous liquor, without any signs of an
inflammable spirit, nor does this liquor give any signs
of being either acid or alcaline salts,
it also appears to contain no saline matter
being inodorus and perfectly infipid.."

" mercury is gross and crude; nor does it stand the test of fire like our mercury, but ..."

- The Golden Tract

Chinese Materia Dietetica, Ming: Stalactite water
Anonymous

" This illustration is headed quanxue shui --
spring-cave water; however the corresponding
entry in the text refers to ruxue shui, i.e water
from a limestone cave with stalactites
(shizhongru).
The illustration shows a spring gushing from a
cave containing stalactites.
The water is being collected
by a man who holds a bowl in his
left hand and a scoop in his right hand.
The text states: Stalactite-cave water is
heavier than other kinds of water.
When it is boiled, salt particles appear on
the surface. Stalactite-cave water is
sweet in sapor and non-poisonous.
Drinking stalactite-cave water can
make one sturdy and healthy and help
preserve a handsome youthful appearance.
It has similar medicinal properties to
human milk [Translator's note: the
lexeme ru in ruxue shui -- stalactite-cave water --
is a homonym of ru, milk].
It is extremely beneficial to the health to
use stalactite-cave water for cooking and liquor
making. Fish raised in stalactite-cave water
have healthy-giving and tonic properties when
eaten "

On a related note reading through this discussion
https://www.alchemydiscussion.com/vi...893&forum_id=8

I found this translation

"Alabaster [???]
is certainly the whitest stone,
the stone that is located in the head,
the one that is like a bough [or branch] having heat [aflame?]. Take this, triturate it and pickle it in vinegar made from cheap wine."

Is very familiar to

"that is the mystical bone , it contains the mystical salt of life which does not decay in the earth...
doctor dee ?, in spite your latin and all your learning i will tell you then
because the bone shines with a light that others cannot see "

- Meyrink

Luz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luz_(bone)

A man churning milk, whilst a sadhu (holy man) stands in front of him.
https://wellcomecollection.org/works/gbrfrznr


The cow as mother of the world.
https://wellcomecollection.org/works/x4hb4e7t

[Christophorus]

Doing research at the forum, found this thread.
Now I understand a little better the shells experiment I'm doing and how the calcium behaves in digestion.

Thank you Kibric for the sharing of your experiments. I will experiment this for sure after holiday.