Patrons of the Sacred Art

Can't log in? Contact Us

OPEN TO REGISTER: Click HERE if you want to join Alchemy Forums!

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 18

Thread: A puzzle in Aureum Seculum Seculum Redivivum (Madathanus)

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,523

    A puzzle in Aureum Seculum Seculum Redivivum (Madathanus)

    Hi! I got curious about the puzzle that Madathanus left and that should disclose his real name.

    The puzzle is in the preface to his Aureum Seculum Redivivum. I think that MAYBE the "symbol of the author" may play a role there (but it is simply a suspicion, I don't know how to decipher it).

    I will use an amended version of Waite's English translation as to copy the text in English:

    "In conclusion, that the learned and worthy Christian reader may know my Christian name and my surname, I will remove every cause of complaint by making it known in the following manner. Let all and sundry be certified that the number of my name is M.DC.XIII: by this number my whole name is written in the book of Nature with II dead ones, and 7 living ones. After that, the letter 5 is the fifth part of B, and 15 the fifth part of 12. With this information you must be satisfied. Written Mons Abiegnus, March 23rd, 1622."

    The Latin text:



    And the authors symbol (which may be related to the puzzle or not):



    O.K... the work is signed as "HINRICUS MADATHANUS"... And his real name is known:

    "Adrian von Mynsicht (1603ľ1638) was a German Paracelsian medical doctor and alchemist. Otherwise known as Henricus or Hinricus Madathanus, Adrian Seumenicht or SŘmenicht, Hadrianus a Mynsicht, Hadrianus a Munsicht, Hadrian Mynsicht; it has been suggested by some researchers that his real name was Adrian Seumenicht, with Hadrianus a Munsicht derived as anagram. ("Harmannus Datichus", mentioned in the following text, is also an anagram of the same.) Madathanus refers to himself as "Dei Gratia Aurea Crucis Frater" or "by the Grace of God Brother of the Golden Cross"."

    Source: http://atrightanglestoreality.blogsp...-saeculum.html

    So... the solution to the puzzle should (probably) be among the names mentioned above, but I do not know how is it that he arrives to anything by using those "hints".

    Just for fun: anyone can think of what kind of method can be used as to arrive to his "real name" by using those very strange hints? I don't think the method will disclose any kind of alchemical knowledge... but it's a challenge for those who like cyphers.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    97
    Blog Entries
    26
    Hi! That's actually my blog and post. McLean has his works as:

    Thesaurus Medico-Chimicum
    Tractatu de Lapide Aureo Philosophorum
    Armamentarium Medico-Chimicum
    Testamentum DE Lapide Philosophico

    I have his Golden Treatise (Tractatu de Lapide Aureo Philosophorum) saved in draft on my blog for months, as I stopped trusting Waite's translations and had some questions which I asked in the forums HERE.

    I'm going strictly from memory here, but I think it was McLean that mentions in one of these works there's an included poem/verse (or perhaps a small seperate tract) that's signed with a different name, which is also an anagram of these other names.

    As far as I can tell, Thesaurus Medico-Chimicum and Armanentarium Medica-Chimicum are different publications of the same work, with perhaps one of them being a slight re-working of the other.

    "Testamentum DE Lapide Philosophico" mentioned by McLean only exists, as far as I know, as appendix within Thesaurus Medico-Chimicum. I have copies from 6 or more publications of this and it exists in each one. It does not exist in Armamnetarium, and I believe this is one of the big differences between the two. It is actually titled "Testamentum Hadrianeum Quo Suam De Aureo philosophorum Lapide sententiam". The Thesaurus Medico-Chimicum is definitely explicitly attributed to Adrian Mynsicht:




    The "Testamentum DE Lapide Philosophico" appendix is approximately 26 pages, and starts with this:




    There's then a preface titled "Magni Hermetis Trismegisiti", then a letter of dedication (I think) to "Georgium Ludovicum". I'm sure I should know the english version of that name, but it escapes me at the moment. Between the letter and when the actual text of the Testamentum starts, there's a one-page reference to Aureum Seculum Redivivum:




    I've meant to decipher that latin, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

    As I mentioned in the blogpost, this symbol of his was used prominently on the Porta Alchemica (this has a very good article on wikipedia):




    And was published in Geheime Figuren Der Rosenkreuzer:




    I had dug up a few different sources on Mynsicht while researching this, which I largely didn't end up using as some of the information was contradictory and I didn't have the time to get to the bottom of it. One of the things I remember reading is Mynsicht being connected to the (re-)discovery of Aqua Regia.

    I really don't have a clue what he's getting at with the part you transcribed, except for maybe this part: 15 the fifth part of 12. 4 parts of twelve = 3. Adding a 5th part (3) to 12 = 15.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,523
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    Hi! That's actually my blog and post.
    Oh! Consider me a huge fan of your blog, sir!
    I think I will write to you soon with a strange proposal (not as interesting as it sounds).
    Anyway, your blog is among my favourites webs about alchemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    I have his Golden Treatise (Tractatu de Lapide Aureo Philosophorum) saved in draft on my blog for months, as I stopped trusting Waite's translations and had some questions which I asked in the forums HERE.
    I have translated the work to Spanish (only Aureum Seculum Redivivum) and I have used Waite's translation as a reference (among several others in different languages)... which is practical when it comes to organize the very long Latin sentences and see how other translators have done it. Waite's translation is OK, though it has some weird mistakes, though not many.
    i.e, when the "naked Nature" is described following Song of Songs 7, he translates: "her two breasts were like two young roses that are twins"...
    But the text says "Ubera, quemadmodum duo hinnulorum gemini"

    ... And hinnulorum certainly doesn't mean "roses", but "deers" (female deers actually)... So they don't look like roses, but as she-deers. Anyway, his translation is mostly OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    I'm going strictly from memory here, but I think it was McLean that mentions in one of these works there's an included poem/verse (or perhaps a small seperate tract) that's signed with a different name, which is also an anagram of these other names.

    As far as I can tell, Thesaurus Medico-Chimicum and Armanentarium Medica-Chimicum are different publications of the same work, with perhaps one of them being a slight re-working of the other.

    "Testamentum DE Lapide Philosophico" mentioned by McLean only exists, as far as I know, as appendix within Thesaurus Medico-Chimicum. I have copies from 6 or more publications of this and it exists in each one. It does not exist in Armamnetarium, and I believe this is one of the big differences between the two. It is actually titled "Testamentum Hadrianeum Quo Suam De Aureo philosophorum Lapide sententiam". The Thesaurus Medico-Chimicum is definitely explicitly attributed to Adrian Mynsicht:

    Thank you! I love to see well-researched information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    The "Testamentum DE Lapide Philosophico" appendix is approximately 26 pages, and starts with this:
    (...)

    There's then a preface titled "Magni Hermetis Trismegisiti", then a letter of dedication (I think) to "Georgium Ludovicum". I'm sure I should know the english version of that name, but it escapes me at the moment. Between the letter and when the actual text of the Testamentum starts, there's a one-page reference to Aureum Seculum Redivivum:



    I've meant to decipher that latin, but haven't gotten around to it yet.
    Do you mean the paragraph that begins with "Quaesivi: Inveni, etcetera"? I can write it in English if you want it, though I am not sure if you mean that part or if you mean deciphering the cypher that should unveil his "real name" (i.e, what I asked in the first post). Though if you meant that paragraph, I can quickly write it in English for you.

    Nice to see that version, I am using a version published in 1667... which is mostly identical, but doesn't have that seal that the version you posted shows (a "reprint" of Aureum Seculum Redivivum only).

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    As I mentioned in the blogpost, this symbol of his was used prominently on the Porta Alchemica (this has a very good article on wikipedia):
    Oh, yes! I've had the luck of visiting the Alchemical Door.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    I really don't have a clue what he's getting at with the part you transcribed, except for maybe this part: 15 the fifth part of 12. 4 parts of twelve = 3. Adding a 5th part (3) to 12 = 15.
    It seems to make sense, though it is hard to figure out what he meant.
    My theory so far is that he willingly included that puzzle without the intention of allowing ANY reader to decipher it... but it was a way to stop any "swindler" who could have wanted to pretend that the work was written by him and take the credit for it (I can think of "Ali Puli", which had 2 authors claiming to be "Ali Puli" and probably one of them wrote his first work and the imposter wrote the other two works)... but that's simply my imagination trying to figure out what he did with that strange cypher/puzzle.

    (I do not get the meaning of his "B" and his "S" either, though I think they are probably part of the puzzle too).

    Thanks a lot for the informative answer and I will probably write to you in a few days with an idea.

    J. (unconditional fan of A.R.A.T.R!!!)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    97
    Blog Entries
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Oh! Consider me a huge fan of your blog, sir!
    I think I will write to you soon with a strange proposal (not as interesting as it sounds).
    Anyway, your blog is among my favourites webs about alchemy.
    J. (unconditional fan of A.R.A.T.R!!!)
    Well thanks for that. It feels nice to be appreciated. Honestly though I work mainly in a vacuum, an island unto myself. I don't get much feedback. I've been on a self imposed moratorium (which I have broken several times) against posting new material on there. The point was to force myself to grab a domain (seculospiritussancti.org), learn wordpress, choose or develop a theme, and move everything to there with a nice top horizontal menu dividing into sections. But that was 2016, and it hasn't happened yet.

    I presume Salon Arcano is your website? If so, I see you have a focus on the imagery as well. That's what I started with in my own researches, not specifically in Alchemy but in general. I noticed for any particular personality, I only saw online the same few images over and over (For example, robert fludd, athanasius kircher, bruno, lull). In terms of Alchemy, there was a lot of low resolution imagery from the older work of RAMS and McLean. So I was focused on finding complete sets from these people and texts, in the best quality I could. It was really all I could do with them as they were typically in languages I couldn't read, and I had no translations. My goal was to come up with print quality images. One of the best examples of my work is probably my post of Lambspring. For awhile that's all I did. From there I'd develop a bibliography for those authors, look for their other works, etc. I've developed a pretty good collection. And unfortunately repeated a lot of work people have already done.

    Then instead of just posting image albums, I started finding english translations to combine with my images. Which brings me to some of my problems with Waite.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Do you mean the paragraph that begins with "Quaesivi: Inveni, etcetera"? I can write it in English if you want it, though I am not sure if you mean that part or if you mean deciphering the cypher that should unveil his "real name" (i.e, what I asked in the first post). Though if you meant that paragraph, I can quickly write it in English for you.
    Yes that's the one I mean, "Queasivi". I would appreciate that.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Nice to see that version, I am using a version published in 1667... which is mostly identical, but doesn't have that seal that the version you posted shows (a "reprint" of Aureum Seculum Redivivum only).
    That's a version I don't have! I have the Testamentum section extracted from publications in 1638, 1641, 1645, 1652, 1675, and if I remember correctly they all "agree".

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Oh, yes! I've had the luck of visiting the Alchemical Door.
    Lucky you. Did you get your own pictures? I've been a little obsessed with it since I spontaneously made out the "RUAH ELOHIM" underneath (I don't read hebrew but I've attempted to acquaint myself with the alphabet and a few basics, several different times, just to "lose" it all as soon as I move on to something else)

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    It seems to make sense, though it is hard to figure out what he meant. My theory so far is that he willingly included that puzzle without the intention of allowing ANY reader to decipher it...
    (...)
    .. but that's simply my imagination trying to figure out what he did with that strange cypher/puzzle.
    (I do not get the meaning of his "B" and his "S" either, though I think they are probably part of the puzzle too).
    And, unfortunately, I'm very little help with that. I was drawn to Mynsicht by his symbol and the Aureum Seculum Redivivum - from the standpoint of him being a Rosicrucian personality. I found his serious alchemist side while researching him. I agree, the "B. S." is a mystery. Its repeated in the Secret Figures book, but not on the Porta Alchemica. Other than that, I'm not so sure theres any great mystery concealed there, in the form of cipher. If there was, I think there might be clues in relation to his other diagrams:



    That being said, there could be a code based on rotating the 6 pointed star so the points are resting on specific letters. In this case, it would be the same as rotating the outer ring of letters. Or it could be rotating the two triangles comprising the star independently. In this case, the numbers could represent the number of letters of maybe "degrees" to rotate it, or even different rotations for the two triangles. I really just noticed this while writing this, and it's bothering me.. how the text is spaced so that letters land directed on the points of the star... and "Rota" is a standard game they play.

    In the mottos themselves there's not a lot of mystery - standard Rosicrucian fare. Even if there's mystery in a cipher contained in the letters of the mottos, it does still encode many of the "mysteries of creation" from a neoplatonic standpoint.

    Centrum In Trigono Centri - “The Center of the Center in the Triangle”. The rosicrucian "centrum" is really the Monad of the Hermeticists/Neoplatonists.

    It's related to Maier's Emblem 21:




    ..and you'll find a version of this at the bottom middle of Mynsicht's frontispiece I posted above. (as well, the sigils or glyphs from his two other symbols are on either side of the text). In Mynsicht's original symbol, there is no square explicitly drawn, but the faces of the angles imply the points of a square.

    Tria sunt mirabilia - Deus et homo - Mater et Virgo - Trinus et Unus
    There are three marvels - God and Man - Mother and Virgin - The Three and the One.

    And that brings me to another one of my favorites, Frankenberg's "Key to the House of David":




    You'll see this basically contains the same information as Mynsicht's symbol, down to the "God and Man", "3 in 1", and all the geometry.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Thanks a lot for the informative answer and I will probably write to you in a few days with an idea.
    Sure, go right ahead. I'm game.

    edit: I forgot to mention, regarding Maier's Emblem 21 above.. that version doesn't show it well, but it in the bottom left corner that's a six pointed star inscribed in a circle, a square inscribed inside a circle, and a "free standing" octagon.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,523
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    Well thanks for that. It feels nice to be appreciated. Honestly though I work mainly in a vacuum, an island unto myself. I don't get much feedback. I've been on a self imposed moratorium (which I have broken several times) against posting new material on there. The point was to force myself to grab a domain (seculospiritussancti.org), learn wordpress, choose or develop a theme, and move everything to there with a nice top horizontal menu dividing into sections. But that was 2016, and it hasn't happened yet.
    Hahaha! Well, you have one fan here, I am sure there are others. It's a very useful blog.
    I get that you are not a computer geek, so I assume there are other ways which are easier (i.e, there are hundreds of websites that offer Responsive .HTML5 templates and there are different softwares that mostly make it easy to work with them -responsive = the web "knows" if the person is using a phone or a desktop computer and adjusts itself as to look better in each device).

    It is easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    I presume Salon Arcano is your website? If so, I see you have a focus on the imagery as well. That's what I started with in my own researches, not specifically in Alchemy but in general. I noticed for any particular personality, I only saw online the same few images over and over (For example, robert fludd, athanasius kircher, bruno, lull). In terms of Alchemy, there was a lot of low resolution imagery from the older work of RAMS and McLean. So I was focused on finding complete sets from these people and texts, in the best quality I could. It was really all I could do with them as they were typically in languages I couldn't read, and I had no translations. My goal was to come up with print quality images. One of the best examples of my work is probably my post of Lambspring. For awhile that's all I did. From there I'd develop a bibliography for those authors, look for their other works, etc. I've developed a pretty good collection. And unfortunately repeated a lot of work people have already done.
    Yes, it's my web. It is mostly for living artists who work with the imaginer of Hermeticism (in a VERY broad sense) and want to show their work there. It somehow started because I saw that there were a lot of people who were creating very interesting ART, but didn't consider themselves artists. So it began somehow as a vehicle to get some artists out of the "closet". It is not especially about alchemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    Then instead of just posting image albums, I started finding english translations to combine with my images. Which brings me to some of my problems with Waite.
    Most of his translations are OK... though he was a bit like the term "popular science" and mostly making the texts a bit "easier" to read, but such thing brings problems if you want to get a bit academic or if you need some very specific terms.
    I.e, if a text says "Aqua Fortis", then probably Waite would translate "a strong water", which is OK as a translation, but problematic for someone who wants to take things to a lab or compare a text with others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    Yes that's the one I mean, "Queasivi". I would appreciate that.
    No problem! Though keeping the "style" is impossible for me in English, but this is the translation

    QuŠsivi: inveni: purgavi sŠpius: atque
    conjunxi: maturavi: Tinctura secuta est
    Aurea, NaturŠ centrum quŠ dicitur: inde
    Tot sensus, tot scripta virum, variŠque f´gurŠ
    Omnibus, ingenue fateor, MEDECINA metallis;
    Infirmisque simul : punctum divinitus ortum.

    QuŠsivi = I have searched.
    inveni = I have found
    purgavi sŠpius = I have purged frequently (in the sense of "cleaning", "purifying", etc)
    atque conjunxi = and I have conjoined (maybe another word is better... It simply means that he has made the "conjunctio" or "union")
    maturavi: I have made [it] mature (Actually all the verbs are transitive here, but the object is implicit... But maybe it should be translated as "I have searched it, I have found it, etc.... it's hard to translate this one with an implicit object)
    Tinctura secuta est Aurea, = The tincture that follows is golden (not sure if it makes sense in English... a less literal, but maybe more accurate translation would be "the resulting tincture is golden" -i.e, the result of making all the previous things is a golden tincture)
    NaturŠ centrum quŠ dicitur = the center of Nature is how they call it
    inde tot sensus = which among the many opinions
    tot scripta virum = the many writings of the men (maybe I am being too literal, but the sense is "the books written by men")
    variŠque f´gurŠ omnibus = and all the different images ("images" in the sense of images created by men: drawings, engravings, paintings)
    ingenue fateor, MEDECINA metallis = [with] simplicity I recognise the MEDICINE of the Metals
    Infirmisque simul and at the same time of the sick ones (in the sense of "and it is also the medicine of the sicknesses)
    punctum divinitus ortum the apparition of the divine point (this is horrible, but I don't know how to translate it to English... The "Ortus" is mostly an astronomical word... it is the point in which a planet becomes visible in the horizon... the first "point" you can see of the sun each day is the "ortus" of the sun, there isn't an English word as far as I know, thus "becomes visible" or "rises from there" are OK).

    I'm not amazing translating anything to English, but it is something along the lines of:

    I have searched it: I have found it: I have purified it a lot of times: and I have made the "conjunctio" with it: I have maturated it: the Tincture that came next is Golden, the center of Nature is how they call it: which among the many opinions, the many writings of men, [and] all the different images; I simply recognise it as the MEDICINE of the metals, which is also the medicine for the sick persons: the divine point becomes visible
    [or more poetical: this is the dawn of the divine point]

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    That's a version I don't have! I have the Testamentum section extracted from publications in 1638, 1641, 1645, 1652, 1675, and if I remember correctly they all "agree".
    This is the version I have translated: https://www.e-rara.ch/zut/doi/10.3931/e-rara-39171

    ... Probably the text is identical, but the two seals you have shown are not there; only the "main one" with the B. and the S. For some reason the publisher did not include them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    Lucky you. Did you get your own pictures? I've been a little obsessed with it since I spontaneously made out the "RUAH ELOHIM" underneath (I don't read hebrew but I've attempted to acquaint myself with the alphabet and a few basics, several different times, just to "lose" it all as soon as I move on to something else)
    Yes, the Ruach Elohim is on top
    Yes, I got some "tourist photos"... the door is strangefully placed in the middle of a park that doesn't look like a very safe place at all (most persons there looked absolutely "high" on something... which was also fun, because the pompous door is in a neighborhood that is not "for tourists" at all nowadays).

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    And, unfortunately, I'm very little help with that. I was drawn to Mynsicht by his symbol and the Aureum Seculum Redivivum - from the standpoint of him being a Rosicrucian personality. I found his serious alchemist side while researching him. I agree, the "B. S." is a mystery. Its repeated in the Secret Figures book, but not on the Porta Alchemica. Other than that, I'm not so sure theres any great mystery concealed there, in the form of cipher. If there was, I think there might be clues in relation to his other diagrams:
    I think the B. S. is simply a part of the "cypher" he used to conceal his name and the image works both as a figure to illustrate the text and as his "signature"... probably some sort of procedure involving the B. S. and the texts in the circles disclose the "mystery" of his name... I am assuming, but it's not a wild assumption that when he says that "the letter 5 is the fifth part of B", he means THAT "B" (though only God and him may know how his cypher works).

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    That being said, there could be a code based on rotating the 6 pointed star so the points are resting on specific letters. In this case, it would be the same as rotating the outer ring of letters. Or it could be rotating the two triangles comprising the star independently. In this case, the numbers could represent the number of letters of maybe "degrees" to rotate it, or even different rotations for the two triangles. I really just noticed this while writing this, and it's bothering me.. how the text is spaced so that letters land directed on the points of the star... and "Rota" is a standard game they play.
    Yes, that's my assumption too... they reminded me a bit of Llull's Ars Magna, even if in the case of Llull his "device" was not a cypher, but a logical artifact.
    I thought that he could either be doing something by rotating the triangles or MAYBE he is doing something close to any of the cypher systems of the Kabbalah (AIQ BKR, ATh BSh... or any similar system, but using English letters).

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    In the mottos themselves there's not a lot of mystery - standard Rosicrucian fare. Even if there's mystery in a cipher contained in the letters of the mottos, it does still encode many of the "mysteries of creation" from a neoplatonic standpoint.

    Centrum In Trigono Centri - ôThe Center of the Center in the Triangleö. The rosicrucian "centrum" is really the Monad of the Hermeticists/Neoplatonists.

    It's related to Maier's Emblem 21:




    ..and you'll find a version of this at the bottom middle of Mynsicht's frontispiece I posted above. (as well, the sigils or glyphs from his two other symbols are on either side of the text). In Mynsicht's original symbol, there is no square explicitly drawn, but the faces of the angles imply the points of a square.

    Tria sunt mirabilia - Deus et homo - Mater et Virgo - Trinus et Unus
    There are three marvels - God and Man - Mother and Virgin - The Three and the One.
    Yes, he means it as 3 apparent contradictions... I read it as:
    "There are ONLY three miracles: that *something* can be BOTH God and man, that *something* can be both Virgin and Mother, and that *something* can by both a Trinity and One thing".

    So he is explaining it as something that looks as 3 contradictions, but they are not... and that's a miracle. Yes, it's very neoplatonic, it is the reverse of the Negative Theology by giving double positives (the "perfect mind" text of the Nag-Hammadi is filed with double affirmations that don't seem to be possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    And that brings me to another one of my favorites, Frankenberg's "Key to the House of David":




    You'll see this basically contains the same information as Mynsicht's symbol, down to the "God and Man", "3 in 1", and all the geometry.
    Interesting! I didn't know that one.

    Funny, I have asked about a solution to a riddle and I got much more than I expected!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    97
    Blog Entries
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Hahaha! Well, you have one fan here, I am sure there are others. It's a very useful blog. I get that you are not a computer geek, so I assume there are other ways which are easier (i.e, there are hundreds of websites that offer Responsive .HTML5 templates and there are different softwares that mostly make it easy to work with them -responsive = the web "knows" if the person is using a phone or a desktop computer and adjusts itself as to look better in each device).
    Actually I am a complete computer geek. My reply was originally at least twice as long but I cut a lot to try to be more concise. I never meant to have "a blog" as such.. I tried posting content to the typical social media platforms, but none of them allow "inline images" with the text like blogs and these forums. you're stuck with attaching your images at the end, and then having to refer the reader to them in the text. I really was using it to post links to individual posts. I tried grouping them (links to the individual posts) into "pages" by certain criteria, links to the individual posts that reside on the side menu.

    I'm pretty old school when it comes the web, it's more natural to me just to whip up pages of a site in HTML. I've had no reason to keep up to date on these new web platforms. But the sheer amount of content it will have makes managing it all in HTML pages a pretty daunting task.. which is something a system like Wordpress helps with, and has a bunch of developed tools with which to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    I'm not amazing translating anything to English, but it is something along the lines of:

    I have searched it: I have found it: I have purified it a lot of times: and I have made the "conjunctio" with it: I have maturated it: the Tincture that came next is Golden, the center of Nature is how they call it: which among the many opinions, the many writings of men, [and] all the different images; I simply recognise it as the MEDICINE of the metals, which is also the medicine for the sick persons: the divine point becomes visible
    [or more poetical: this is the dawn of the divine point]
    That's pretty good! Maybe something like:

    "I have searched for it, and I have found it. I purified it many times, and I have made the Conjunction with it. I have aged it, and the Tincture that came next was Golden. It is called "The Center of Nature". Which among the many opinions and writings of men, and all the different images, I simply recognize it as the Medicine of the Metals. Which is also Medicine for the Sick. Behold, the dawn of the Divine Point.

    The only part I'm not clear on is if he has used it to make a conjunction, or if he became conjoined with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    I think the B. S. is simply a part of the "cypher" he used to conceal his name and the image works both as a figure to illustrate the text and as his "signature"... probably some sort of procedure involving the B. S. and the texts in the circles disclose the "mystery" of his name... I am assuming, but it's not a wild assumption that when he says that "the letter 5 is the fifth part of B", he means THAT "B" (though only God and him may know how his cypher works).
    Yes honestly, there are too many combinations without more to go on.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Yes, that's my assumption too... they reminded me a bit of Llull's Ars Magna, even if in the case of Llull his "device" was not a cypher, but a logical artifact.
    In a recent blog post (on AF) I linked to three albums of different versions the images from Llull's Art.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    I thought that he could either be doing something by rotating the triangles or MAYBE he is doing something close to any of the cypher systems of the Kabbalah (AIQ BKR, ATh BSh... or any similar system, but using English letters).
    Atbash I believe was discovered by one of the original Dead Sea Scrolls researchers, Hugh Schonfield. Who wrote "The Essene Odyssey". The simple ciphers like AtBash and its variants are of course based on the Yetzirah:

    The twenty-two letters are the foundation. They are fixed on a wheel with two hundred and twenty-one gates. The wheel rotates backwards and forwards. And this is the sign of the matter: if for good," above pleasure, and if for evil, below pain.

    Twenty-two letters: he carved them out, he hewed them, he weighed them and exchanged them, he combined them and formed with them the life of all creation and the life of all that would be formed. How did he weigh and exchange them? - Aleph with them all, and them all with Aleph; Bet with them all, and them all with Bet; Gimel with them all, and them all with Gimel. And they all rotate in turn. The result is that they go out by two hundred and twenty-one gales. The result is that all creation and all speech go out by one name.
    I screwed this up, the first line should be "Alef with all and all with Alef", instead of "..and all with Bet". I can't find my original photoshop file to fix it:




    As an example of 'Ars Combinatoria', Llull's Art is heavily influenced by the Sefer Yetzirah, an early example of the craft. Even from the "Short Recession", someone interested enough can develop a chart of different coresspondences for the hebrew characters. Later, more corrupt versions of the Yetzirah are even expanded to explicitly include several of these lists. And at that point, rotating the wheels is not just a matter of combining and comparing the characters, but also all the coresspondences associated with each.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Yes, he means it as 3 apparent contradictions... I read it as: "There are ONLY three miracles: that *something* can be BOTH God and man, that *something* can be both Virgin and Mother, and that *something* can by both a Trinity and One thing". So he is explaining it as something that looks as 3 contradictions, but they are not... and that's a miracle. Yes, it's very neoplatonic, it is the reverse of the Negative Theology by giving double positives

    The Table of Opposites (Greek: συστοιχία sustoichia)[1] of Pythagoras is the oldest surviving of many such tables propounded by philosophers. Aristotle is the main source of our knowledge of the Pythagorean table.

    Here follows a rough translation of the Table of Opposites, although like all translations the precise meaning does not necessarily carry over from the original Greek. For example, "crooked" has connotations in English that it may lack in the original.

    finite, infinite
    odd, even
    one, many
    right, left
    rest, motion
    straight, crooked
    light, darkness
    good, evil
    square, oblong

    Some sources add:
    male, female

    Of these nine or ten opposites, many philosophers have seized on the third pair as one of the most profound questions in philosophy. Is the universe one? Then how is it diverse? Is the universe many? Then how is it unified? This has historically been known as the problem of the one and the many, about which no small amount of ink has been spilled.
    -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_Opposites
    To this I would add the "straight line": active, male, penetrating and the "circle": passive, female, restriction/formative (like a womb).


    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    (the "perfect mind" text of the Nag-Hammadi is filed with double affirmations that don't seem to be possible)
    I like The Thunder. I see it as the voice of the feminine aspect of the "Initiator" in contast to the "masculine aspect" in Divine Pymander.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Interesting! I didn't know that one. Funny, I have asked about a solution to a riddle and I got much more than I expected!
    Man, you don't know how I had to hold my tongue to not go off on a tangent about the centrum/monad and emanation and all that good stuff. Since I brought up Franckenberg, I have one more reproduction of Mynsicht's seal. It's actually from a blank page at the back of a printed copy of Franckenberg's "Raphael oder Artzt":


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,523
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    Actually I am a complete computer geek. My reply was originally at least twice as long but I cut a lot to try to be more concise. I never meant to have "a blog" as such.. I tried posting content to the typical social media platforms, but none of them allow "inline images" with the text like blogs and these forums. you're stuck with attaching your images at the end, and then having to refer the reader to them in the text. I really was using it to post links to individual posts. I tried grouping them (links to the individual posts) into "pages" by certain criteria, links to the individual posts that reside on the side menu.

    I'm pretty old school when it comes the web, it's more natural to me just to whip up pages of a site in HTML. I've had no reason to keep up to date on these new web platforms. But the sheer amount of content it will have makes managing it all in HTML pages a pretty daunting task.. which is something a system like Wordpress helps with, and has a bunch of developed tools with which to work.
    Hahaha... I see! I was giving advice to an expert! I don't know much about computers and my greatest kill there is to know how to create an amateurish website.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    That's pretty good! Maybe something like:

    "I have searched for it, and I have found it. I purified it many times, and I have made the Conjunction with it. I have aged it, and the Tincture that came next was Golden. It is called "The Center of Nature". Which among the many opinions and writings of men, and all the different images, I simply recognize it as the Medicine of the Metals. Which is also Medicine for the Sick. Behold, the dawn of the Divine Point.

    The only part I'm not clear on is if he has used it to make a conjunction, or if he became conjoined with it.
    Yes, that's a more fluent translation.
    And, no, he didn't get conjoined with the tincture himself.
    All the verbs he is using in that first part are transitive and need a direct object, but nothing suggests that such direct object is himself. He has simply searched for "something", he has found that "something", etc... and he has united that "something", but nothing suggests that he has united himself to that something.
    Then again, it is mostly a synopsis of the book (i.e, he has to find the "naked virgin", then he finds her.... etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    Yes honestly, there are too many combinations without more to go on.
    Yes, probably he didn't want to be "discovered", but there is (probably) an incredibly baroque and complicated solution to the puzzle and he was ready to use it in case that another person decided to claim the authorship of the book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    In a recent blog post (on AF) I linked to three albums of different versions the images from Llull's Art.
    Yes, I saw some of them at this forum in a post of yours. I like the Ars Magna of Llull and it was one of the main subjects I wrote about when we made the first "alchemy forums compilation" book (something about the Ars Magna of Llull and Kircher's "translation" of it into ideograms instead of letters).

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    Atbash I believe was discovered by one of the original Dead Sea Scrolls researchers, Hugh Schonfield. Who wrote "The Essene Odyssey". The simple ciphers like AtBash and its variants are of course based on the Yetzirah:

    I screwed this up, the first line should be "Alef with all and all with Alef", instead of "..and all with Bet". I can't find my original photoshop file to fix it:

    Yes, I am familiar with the Sepher Yetzirah too.
    The 231 gates are simply all the possible combinations of 22 letters without repetitions.
    i.e, 21 + 20 + 19 + 18 + etc till + 1

    The Bible has a few examples of the ATh BSh cypher, hard to tell who is really the first one who used it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    As an example of 'Ars Combinatoria', Llull's Art is heavily influenced by the Sefer Yetzirah, an early example of the craft. Even from the "Short Recession", someone interested enough can develop a chart of different coresspondences for the hebrew characters. Later, more corrupt versions of the Yetzirah are even expanded to explicitly include several of these lists. And at that point, rotating the wheels is not just a matter of combining and comparing the characters, but also all the coresspondences associated with each.
    Hmmm... I will be sending you something, because I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    To this I would add the "straight line": active, male, penetrating and the "circle": passive, female, restriction/formative (like a womb).
    Yes, if we go back to the early neo-platonism, then there's a myriad of qualities that were used as opposites... and then used for the purpose of creating a negative theology or a "double positive" (as in the Thunder).

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    Man, you don't know how I had to hold my tongue to not go off on a tangent about the centrum/monad and emanation and all that good stuff. Since I brought up Franckenberg, I have one more reproduction of Mynsicht's seal. It's actually from a blank page at the back of a printed copy of Franckenberg's "Raphael oder Artzt":

    Wow! Fantastic!!!
    I actually LOVE tangents! (the mods of the forum... not so much )*.

    *I love the mods of the forum anyway!

    Interesting to see the seal of Madathanus next to a seal that is using one of the Alphabets of Agrippa.

    I have to rush, for it's the birthday party of a friend, but what you are posting is beyond interesting!!!!

    God bless the tangents!!!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    5,662
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    I actually LOVE tangents! God bless the tangents!!!
    Here's a tangent:

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    I love the mods of the forum
    Yeah, but which one do you love the most?

    (Don't answer that, that's how the Trojan War began )

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    97
    Blog Entries
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Yes, I am familiar with the Sepher Yetzirah too.
    The 231 gates are simply all the possible combinations of 22 letters without repetitions.
    i.e, 21 + 20 + 19 + 18 + etc till + 1
    There's a concise algebraic formula that describes this.. I'm not going to look it up and pretend I knew it though. When it was obvious it was 22x22, i got it pretty quickly, based on something my father taught me a long time ago, with those old combination lock bike chains.. with 4 wheels marked 0-9.. That it the number of combinations worked like that. I also understand it like a relationship diagram, or a series of points connected to all the other points. the number of "paths" being the number of combinations.



    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Hmmm... I will be sending you something, because I agree.
    Well that was quite the coincidence.


    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Yes, if we go back to the early neo-platonism, then there's a myriad of qualities that were used as opposites... and then used for the purpose of creating a negative theology or a "double positive" (as in the Thunder).
    I wonder if you caught this at the end of that.. The style is not quite up to Wikipedia standards, but:

    "Of these nine or ten opposites, many philosophers have seized on the third pair [one, many] as one of the most profound questions in philosophy. Is the universe one? Then how is it diverse? Is the universe many? Then how is it unified? This has historically been known as the problem of the one and the many, about which no small amount of ink has been spilled."
    and on the latest image, on the left is "ab uno omnia (something) unum omnia". I didn't even have to look this up to know its talking about from the one many.. (on the right is something to do with 'this is the above/superior, and this is the below/inferior')


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,523
    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    Yeah, but which one do you love the most?
    (Don't answer that, that's how the Trojan War began )
    But that's an easy one to answer, Andro, and it should not be problematic:
    The one I love the most is, of course, the most beautiful one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    There's a concise algebraic formula that describes this.. I'm not going to look it up and pretend I knew it though.
    Haaha... It's [A x (A + 1)] / 2
    i.e, 21 x (21 + 1) / 2 = 231

    You have to use 21 and not 22 here, because the 231 pairs exclude the combination of a letter with itself (i.e, Aleph-Aleph is not considered, thus Aleph has 21 combinations)

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    Well that was quite the coincidence.
    Hahaha.. I know; but I like coincidences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    I wonder if you caught this at the end of that.. The style is not quite up to Wikipedia standards, but:
    Yes, it reminds me of the objections that Aristotle had against Pythagoras in his Metaphysics (i.e, how Pythagoras can derive many things from one thing).

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    and on the latest image, on the left is "ab uno omnia (something) unum omnia". I didn't even have to look this up to know its talking about from the one many.. (on the right is something to do with 'this is the above/superior, and this is the below/inferior')

    I am laughing because there is a guy who has a great image about it on his own blog (I have a tattoo on my left arm based on the image he has at his blog):



    "Ab uno omnia et ad unum omnia" From one, everything and to one, everything" (not sure if my translation to English makes sense, but a less literal translation is "Everything comes from one and to one everything returns")

    What you have on the right is "Quod est superius est sicut Inferius"... which is a literal quote of a line of the Emerald Tablet, though a "quod" is missing and the grammar gets a bit wrong ("hat which is above is like that which is below" would be the translation)... even if the correct way of writing it should be: "quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius"

    We obviously have nothing in common!

+ Reply to Thread

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts